Here in So Cal I find a fast accelerating car can save your skin. Drivers here are very aggressive and come up on your tail very quickly and I find I have to punch it to keep at a safe distance. My 70-year-old wife opted for the 365 HP twin-turbo version for her present car for this reason. This past Saturday at 6 am driving at 80 mph in my Alfa 4c and in my mirror I see a Hellcat coming up very quickly, I just punched it for there was no way for him to get around me. He later passed me at over 100. Crazy people.
The E with 3.54 and 5 speed is fast enough to keep me out of trouble.
My Ford Model A is dangerous to drive on the HWY if I dare, bright LEDs flashing to warn of my slow vehicle at 54 mph. My three-speed would make the Moss box seem silky smooth.
Glenn
Glenn
I quickly discovered to not drive my 300 Isetta on the highway…
I won’t be taking a loss on her after 23 years and well over 1000 hours of work. I may have to wait until the market firms up. A year ago it was 150k all day, now…?
Well, I hope the market firms up for them.
I don’t mean to be a hater, but I’m not a fan of the Moss box, either. There were no good words for it at the launch of the E, and Jaguar finally got around to replacing it a few years later. The replacement was still a 4-speed, though, when 5 speeds had already become de rigueur for the high end Italians, Aston Martin, etc. I also went to a 5-speed when the time came to give the 3.54 axle ratio more legs.
]
5 speeds had already become de rigueur for the high end Italians, Aston Martin, etc. I also went to a 5-speed when the time came to give the 3.54 axle ratio more legs.
To be fair, the Italians and Astons had more highly tuned engines and benefitted from , if not downright required, the extra ratio to fill in the missing torque from the mid-range. XK engine Jaguars did not suffer that problem, and could give them a good run for their money even with a cruddy old 4 speed. IIRC, Aston 5 speeds were ZF units, not their own, which is a bit telling considering the owner David Brown was a gearbox manufacturer! Besides which, I don’t believe early Ferrari or David Brown gearboxes got great reviews either, and were much more fragile. Probably a much bigger headache to repair today than a Moss. Face it, to handle big torque requires hefty gears, so they will never shift like a lightweight.
I chuckle when I read about shifting Moss boxes… I grew up driving a '41 3/4 ton Chevy pickup, 4 speed box, no synchros… Learned to shift it without using the clutch, got quite proud of myself with being able to go up and down in gears with no clutch… I guess being a teenager at the time helped a lot, that and just having a vehicle to drive and go on dates without parents having to drive…LOL
Don
I’ve said before and it bears repeating: an E type requires a five-speed like a Harley Davidson requires a five-speed.
They don’t.
The massive torque of their respective engines makes it really not needed. In many ways, and especially back then, the term, “five speed,” had a certain panache, and expectation of exoticism.
A Datsun 1200 could really have used a 5-speed: on an XK-engined car, as “light” as an E, it’s much more about bragging rights than a real need.
IMHO, of course!
Developing and producing a new gearbox is a capital intensive endeavor. Anything that didn’t require a large capital investment, Jaguar and Sir William Lyons was game for. If it did need a big capital investment, Lyons was very, very cautious.
If Jaguar could have gotten a suitable full-synchro gearbox from someone else, 4 speed or not, I have little doubt that it would have unless the price was prohibitive. The fact it did shows how important it was to address the criticism of the Moss box.
Whenever some E-type outfit claims that they’re offering a gearbox for the E-type “designed from the ground up” by them, I am instantly extremely skeptical. Even most full blown car manufacturers source at least some their manual gearboxes from other concerns rather than develop their own, because of the high cost.
A billet case doesn’t mean designed from the ground up! It is this capital expense combined with the relatively small market which makes a quality 5 speed offering for the E-type small.
I’d guess that Medatronics, the Jag JT5 maker, did their 5 speeds because they already had the capacities to do this kind of adaptation, could amortize the cost over their much larger output of general T5 and related transmission products, and most importantly the owner was a Jag enthusiast. They probably never would have been made if Mr. Cangliosi wasn’t IMHO.
Dave
What a discussion…
I guess that a paddle 8-speed shifter is no option, because these boxes are managed as one unit with the engine in modern cars, basically to always work in the most efficient rpm/throttle band.
A Getrag 5 was installed by a PO in our (brother’s) e-Type, it’s for sure an improvement on anything of that period and it’s also a reversible modification.
In my XK120 all 5-speeders need welding in the chassis, this is to me the showstopper, as I would like to leave the car the option to go back to original.
The torque-band of the XK engine is broad, the diff casing allows for a tall end ratio, so indeed, I tend to agree that that is the way to go, but it’s not that simple and Moss components are also getting scarce, so I am really happy that I have the 5 speed option.
For the rest, I fail to see the problem with a reversible modification…
Best,
Ll.
Just in case you thought you might want to knock up a quick gearbox yourself to replace your Moss.
Of course, most of you will already know this.
A well-executed double-clutch or no-clutch shift is satisfying, no doubt. From a performance standpoint, when accelerating through the gears, the longer the shift takes the less acceleration is achieved. I’m always impressed when I see fast gearshifts on race cars and street cars.
Oh, I really started something when I mentioned Moss.
My modification is just some judicious grinding to eliminate a ‘notch’ on the 1 to 2 side of neutral that occasionally caught me when changing from second to third gear.
I always followed Mr Heynes’ instructions to his racing team and didn’t double declutch. In fact, when the clutch slave cylinder gave up, I found it shifted quite well without using the clutch! That is well enough for me to drive home.
The lack of synch on first wasn’t really an issue on the Mk2 with a 3.77 axle. It is good for stump pulling and vertical slopes. I’d use it to start from rest, when moving the lever towards second before going to first provides enough synch. For slowing on a steep upgrade, a hesitation before first was sufficient.
I do accept that it’s an ancient device. But a lot of modern boxes seem pretty agricultural compared with the old Ford and Triumph changes from 50 years ago that Paul and others mentioned. Would I swap it? Only if the swap was straightforward and for something significantly better than Moss with overdrive. Realm in the UK produce a good Supra kit. Unfortunately, they seem to have run out of Supra boxes and now offer a Toyota truck gearbox, fantastic change, but for me the ratios are to wide. There’s the Ford (ZF) 6R80 six speed paddle auto -I love the ZF version of it in my XKR- but the cost is out of my league.
Yes, if I owned an early E-type, I’d probably be looking for a Supra box to combine with the Realm kit or, if I had oodles of cash, possibly the 6R80. For a lwb, where there’s space, I might settle for the addition of a Laycock overdrive.
This is new and fascinating to me - can you add some detail?
Clive, I wish I could -my memory would be better than it is- all I can say is that I read it, probably in one of the many Jaguar books that I’ve read over the years. It’s consistent with the info in the owner’s manual about not slipping, riding … the clutch.
Like most people here, I enjoy shifting gears. If the car originally had a 5 speed, I would be happy with it. But as Paul said above, the XK does not need a 5 speed. It could probably do quite well with a 2 speed.
So why a 5 speed?
I could see dumping the Moss box, based on what I hear. (However, that is one reason I do not have a 3.8.) Like others here, I have driven cars without any synchros on any gear. Enjoyed it, but for me, not what I want on this type of car. Another reason is simply one likes more gears, needed or not. We often like things not needed.
And of course, the rpm drop reason. I live in an area with very nice roads. We can hop in and go for a 200 mile afternoon drive and never hit a freeway. Up over a mountain or two. Fun roads. The 3.54 is perfect for me. And when I am on the free ways, to me the car cruises fine. Yes, the noise level is clearly higher than I am used to today. But most of that is wind noise- I have an OTS. I do not notice engine noise. Maybe if I had a coupe it would be different. To me, no engine whine or buzz at 3500 rpms. To me it is loafing at 3500 rpms. To spend $5k to drop 5-600 rpms, not for me. $1000 to change diffs, still not for me, at least not at this time.
To each their preference.
Anyone care to discuss whether we should prefer chocolate or vanilla ice cream?
Tom
Tutti frutti, you silly man!
Erica, how do you intend to make that plug: gluing a small flat cylindrical rare earth magnet on the internal side of the plug or inserting/assembling it mechanically (bolting or else)?
I haven’t committed to the method yet and will be experimenting. I bought a very strong rare earth magnet that has about 6 pounds of force. But I’m terrified of it getting sucked into the works. So I bought a new brass plug from SNG and am planning to drill up from the bottom leaving a thin skin of brass on top and will place the magnet in from the bottom. If it still has enough force to hold the whole plug to a fridge, I’ll glue it in. I could also stack another behind it to increase the force.
There is another variety that has a screw hole in the center. If the first method is unsatisfactory, I’ll try drilling from the top and stacking several of the screw variety in place and secure with epoxy and glue. These type of magnets have much lower strength though because of the hole. Unfortunately a press fit or even interference fit is out of the question as these things are exceedingly brittle. I already had one fracture just playing with it.
I don’t think it would be a problem at all to epoxy the magnet into the steel plug. Even if the epoxy failed the magnet would remain attached to the plug and it would be extremely difficult to remove it. Magnets in autoboxes often sit on the bottom of the pan held in place by a few small dimples and I have never seen one dislodged. To be absolutely certain, you could always have the plug machined with a hole wider at the apex than the opening to provide a positive lock for the cured epoxy.