Big surprise on my car's history

(Frank Andersen) #41

Replacing a V12 Jaguar engine in a Jaguar with the monstrosity shown would surely ruin it, Rob…:

Instead of ‘grace, pace, space’ you have kitsch - a decently hidden lump is by and large better…:slight_smile:

I wonder how many Ferraries have been lumped…

xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

(Thomas Cummings) #42

The most amazing part of that T Bucket Jag engine is that it has mechanical fuel injection! I’ll bet it has a wild sound with those weed burner pipes. Perhaps the engine even came from a donor Jag that was cheaply lumped - and then the T Bucket guy spent heavily to rebuild and modify the V12. The induction would need to be replaced with vertical short stacks to fit in my car, but it wouldn’t sound the same with conventional exhaust :frowning:

With the recent decade of vintage Ferrari record auction block prices, you can bet that any previously lumped Ferraris were quietly delumped and then auctioned off. If you were able to see a pictorial history of many valuable now pristine super restored cars - you would see that many had a period of time when they were tatty and not so special, maybe even with winter tires and rust and indifferent budget modifications.

It does not matter if you would or would not buy any given car based on modifications - someone else will. Even cars like Mr. Bean’s McLaren, which suffered one or two major offsides and was known to be a hard driven car, seem to find buyers.

(Paul Wigton) #43

One sorta/kinda: my ‘rent’s 1950 Silverstone (LT-2) Jaguar.

Repair parts for Jaguar engines were boo cups expensive back in the day, so Dad did what was widely-done, and perfectly acceptable, in the early 60s: he “lumped” it with a Chevy 283, with Rochester fuel injection.

That swap became sealed, when the Jag-engined Silverstone got hit by lightning, while on the trailer, and on the way back from a race…kinda welded bits together, like the crank and flywheel!!

Dad said the car wasnt all that much faster, but it was hella less expensive to fix!

There are some pix of it, on the old forum: no clue how to get them to here. LT-2, in its now fully and expensively-restored shape, can be see in the Jaguar edition of “Victory By Design.”

(jrinam) #44

a lump only ruins it if your wanting an original pristine example. if your daily driver drops a valve seat and the repair exceeds the value of the car, any motor that will make it functional will return it to daily driver status. I have had several lumps that came to be only because I had a decent daily driver that needed a motor and had good motor and trans. from something else I already owned. a sbc is a step backwards in a jag compared to a v-12, it is a huge step forward compared to to a blown up v-12!

(Paul Wigton) #45

Not sure I agree with the first part, but…the second? Priceless JL gold!!


(Rob Reilly) #46

No, I wasn’t really being serious, Frank.
I just wanted to show that there is a flip side to the rednecks in my part of the world who see my correct original XK120 and XJ12 engines and say things like, “Duh, ya awrta drap a smawl blawk chebby in dar, yup.”
They are not really aware of the existence of any other engine.
But there are a few street rodders who appreciate the Jaguar V12.

(Frank Andersen) #47

Indeed, Rob - I didn’t take you seriously…:slight_smile:

In fact; the picture does show admirable determination and competence - well worthy of praise…

xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

(Frank Andersen) #48

My first reaction is that there are a lot of other ‘decent daily drivers’ other than a Jaguar, jrinam - cheaper to operate and maintain than a Jaguar…

The two schools of thought, lump and not to lump, and as many reasons as there are individuals - and they seldom see eye to eye. I’ll certainly give them all whatever help I can - but I won’t give someone money to lump their Jaguar…:slight_smile:

xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

(Doug Dwyer) #49

It so happens I have one in my care.

Bit of a mystery. This isn’t a well worn, ratty original car that was kept on the road only by virtue of installing a Chevy engine. It has undergone a meticulous (and gorgeous) full restoration. My guess is at least $200k was spent on the car.

The unconfirmed story is that the original engine has been missing for decades but one wonders why, with so much money already being spent, a proper Ferrari V12 wasn’t sourced.

I suspect a de-lumping project is in my future. We’ll see.


(Thomas Cummings) #50

One of the great truths of car shows is that because they are generally free for the public to attend, that a lot of spectators are there precisely because it is free entertainment. So it should be no surprise that the unwashed masses of off duty Walmart shoplifters are in attendance. You might be annoyed when they ask awkward questions or make odd suggestions - no need to over think your reply, just have a little fun and make them seriously think you are considering feather upholstery or some other nonsense to go along with their ideas for your car.

The future of the car hobby has always belonged to whoever is buying our cars as we age or our estates get settled. You can argue about the economics of lumping, but that would miss the point that most lumping occurs when a car is at a low point in market value - which for many owners means they have the freedom to do whatever they want at no great loss. The values of XJ’s have generally been dormant for years, delumping will be the order of the day if that should ever change. Besides, the question of hurting a car’s value is silly: if you don’t own the car it is not your money being spent or lost - so why be concerned with the financial implications for strangers? It will work its way out one way or another as the hobby has been somewhat stagnant for a long time - it seems like I have been seeing the same group of gray beards at car shows. Changing tastes are one factor. it is quite possible that as soon as a couple of decades into the future that the old car hobby may be viewed as something that people once did, but not so much anymore as it becomes more the realm mainly of museums or the eccentric wealthy.

(jrinam) #51

but if you already own the jaguar, it might be cheaper to lump than go car searching. not every jaguar is worth restoring. when your beloved jaguar becomes just another car, just another engine gets it running. I cringe when I see pristine originals lumped, admire it in custom builds and could care less in your $500.00 grocery getter.

(Paul Wigton) #52

This might turn out to be the one thing Ill really miss, taking Der Tweetster to car shows: the endlessly entertaining comments of folks, as they looked it.

I got some REAL jewels of comments, stored in me soft drive!!

(Frank Andersen) #53

If the engine is shot, I’ll fix the engine, jrinam - if the car is shot, lumping won’t help. I rather scrap it than lump it…

I wonder how many Jaguars has been lumped because the owner couldn’t be bothered to fix a simple fault, cheaper than lumping?

xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

(Frank Andersen) #54

You must be joking, Doug; 200 k spent on a lumped Ferrari which to rather pernickety fans would be all but worthless…?

If the original engine could be found, serious money is envisaged - afficionados pay top dollars for matching numbers. But even a replacement engine is likely worth it, and someone may buy it for that purpose. ‘…in my care’ is rather intriguing…:slight_smile:

xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

(Carl Hutchins, Jr. ) #55


I’d bet that SBC in that Ferrari is a jewel. More than a few $'s getting it that way. I’d guess

And, yes, somewhere the “correct” engine exists. $'s for sure, but it’s stewards seem to be able to handle that. Even more
intriguing, Doug, are you the “wrench” that will do the deed ?

One of my favorite TV car shows is “Fast and Loud”. The taes of the "Gas Monkey Garage:. .

Two Ferraris have found their way into that hot rod, or flip and sell place.

  1. A seriously bent up FJ. Many, many dollars and specialized help I getting it back on the road. But, “souped up” ands no longer red, but black. Extremely well done and faster and more agile than ever !

  2. A coupe. Much, much cheaper. And an auto box. Host termed it a “:Grandma’s car”. Non runner. Flipped quickly…

Never knew Enzio’s plant produced such mundane cars???



(Doug Dwyer) #56

I’m pretty sure that happens, Frank. I don’t know how often.


(HarryE30) #57

Well, I bought my car because of the V12 and grew to like the rest of the car over the years.
It even served as our wedding car

Now I try and use it a little more often as a daily driver

It is simply a joy to drive.

I guess what I am trying to say is, if it was my car, I’d try and find a V12 for it. But if the lump can be brought back to life with not too much effort, why not drive it like that until you found a decent V12!


(Thomas Cummings) #58

Looks great Harald! My lump runs fine, so it will remain. The lumping owner became ill and disabled after lumping the car - it was only driven 2,422 miles before it was parked in his garage and had remained undriven for 23 years when he passed last year. It was last licensed for driving in 1994.

I have no idea the nature of the failure or severity of damage on the original V12. For those questioning just the economics of whether fixing a broken V12 is cheaper than lumping I’ll ask that you check in with a specialty engine rebuilder and tell me about the cheap V12 that is waiting for my phone call. Then let’s add up the cost of sourcing a transmission and all of the ancilliaries - I’m confident that another entire nice complete XJ12 could be bought for less. It is probably an order of magnitude difference the cost of delumping vs. the cost to lump. I suspect this cat will remain lumped even with following owners. At issue really is the age set of would be owners - by and large the demand for XJ sedans in either 6 or 12 is from older drivers. You may not like it, but I even think the lumped examples hold more appeal to the younger buyers - who otherwise think of this as a boring car.

For those who would rather scrap an entire car rather than lump it I say you need to relax, its just a car - and one that you don’t own. Good luck in getting other people to own an old car based on your rules of how it should be maintained or repaired.

(Paul Wigton) #59

Thanks! Well-stated. Folks just get TOOO uptight about this stuff.


(jrinam) #60

then scrap it! somebody else, however, may find themselves in a situation that lumping suits their needs better. to some, its just a car! it isn’t like taking your date home and finding incorrect parts on her!