With the demise of body lead and the resulting loss of experienced technicians I am wondering what other alternatives home restorers are using and how successful they are?
Bob Thornton
'53 120 DHC
Paraphrasing Samuel Clemence’s famous retort, the demise of body solder is much exaggerated.
I still sling lead. With fairly simple precautions it’s quite safe and there just isn’t a comparable substitute in my estimation. Lead-free body solders are available, from Eastwood for one, but I’ve never worked with it so don’t know if its plasticity and working range is as good as standard 30/70 tin/lead.
My $0.02.
Thanks Nick. So where are you able to get the 30/70 lead?
Bob T.
Last stuff I bought was old stock from a hotrodder, but it’s still available from Eastwood, about $20/lb so a bit pricey, about double wholesale. I bought 25# wholesale back in the 80s but last I checked the minimum order’s gone up to something like 40# - ok if you’ve got 4 or 5 cars to do.
http://www.eastwood.com/ew-lead-solder-stick-1-lb.html
The only wholesaler here in Canada who still supplies 30/70 is Canada Metals.
For what it is worth I have used the latest products on the market which is called “all medal” filler. From what I have heard from several people in the industry these days, this stuff is much better than lead and there is apparently several reasons for those comments?
B[quote=“Harv_XK_140, post:5, topic:354882”]
For what it is worth I have used the latest products on the market which is called “all medal” filler. From what I have heard from several people in the industry these days, this stuff is much better than lead and there is apparently several reasons for those comments?
[/quote]
All metal filler isn’t new to the autobody market. It has been around for at least 40 years, about how many years ago I used it. It was developed by Chrysler Corp iirc and was marketed under the brand name Metalux. It is an epoxy-based compound that integrates powdered aluminum in the formulation. It’s greatest features, compared to plastic fillers like Bondo, is its resistence to water infiltration and superior strength.
But I would be tempted to ask what qualifies it as Much better vs body solder?
Ease of application? I’ll buy that. It takes about as much skill to apply and shape as plastic filler - which also means as easy to abuse.
Panel stability during application? Yes. There is potential to cause heat warpage of the panel if solder is applied without care, especially to larger areas. But that again goes to use/abuse. Most bodymen who still use solder will strive to bring their sheetmetal to as close to perfect as their skills allow before lighting the torch and then they will be careful to heat the steel just hot enough to bring the solder to liquidus for tinning and plasticus for paddling.
Safer? Arguably, though I don’t know about VOC exposure of all metal filler (vs bondo, which can be high) nor do I know what potential health exposures are presented by powdered aluminum. Powdered lead is a definite long term hazard which means that shaping the solder never includes sanding or grinding but filing and carving. Housekeeping is more important working with solders. Collection of shavings and suitable disposal of waste a must, but again not onerous if done concurrently and thoroughly.
Superior adhesion? Not a chance. All metal filler provides better adhesion vs Bondo but it is still a chemical bond. Body solder provides a metalurgical bond by forming intermetalic compounds at the atomic level and is very, very strong.
Superior flexibility? Also no. Flex a piece of sheet metal onto which all metal filler has been applied and the filler will snap and separate where the solder will stretch without breaking and with zero separation from the steel.
Superior strength? No again. Its metalurgical bond and high modulous of elasticity makes body solder the superior choice for filling welded seams where major panels are joined. It is also the only type of filler that should be used to raise an edge or a corner that may be exposed to impact as it will resist chipping.
One other area where there’s no comparison is panel finessing, getting the panel to a close tolerance in fit and elevation. The standard I try my best to follow is +0/-1/10" max, which allows for prepaint prep using high build primer and polyester glaze followed by long blocking to achieve a dead level surface. With solder it is still possible to do a bit of panel beating to gain or reduce that extra 1/16" or so whereas plastic and epoxy fillers won’t tolerate it.
I guess I’m now up to $0.04.
I use 20/80 because it has a wider plastic phase and it’s cheaper. I make
it by combining a 1# bar of standard 60/40 solder with 2.5# of pig lead from
a plumbing supply house. I melt it together in a cast iron lead melting pot
and pour it into a bar mold I made from a piece of stainless steel angle
stock. The melting pot is later used to make new bars from the filings I
collect. You can’t do that with plastic!
Cast Iron Lead Melting Pots
Mike Eck
New Jersey, USA
www.jaguarclock.com
'51 XK120 OTS, '62 3.8 MK2 MOD, '72 SIII E-Type 2+2
In Reply To
http://forums.jag-lovers.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v2/letter/r/898d66/45.png
http://forums.jag-lovers.com/u/robert_thornton Robert_Thornton
July 7
Thanks Nick. So where are you able to get the 30/70 lead? Bob T.
Ah! So I am not alone.
What’s important when recycling filings is to keep them clean. For that I always file onto a clean surface below the panel which also allows for complete collection. I have found however that any incidental steel filings will contaminate the mix and mess up the alloying properties, causing the alloy to be grainy with a shorter working range.
I’ve used both 30/70 and 20/80 alloys. Tradeoffs with both. I still have an old book that I bought in the early 80s titled Auto Body Solder by T. W. Cowan. This is what he has to say about solder compositions:
“A solder with a high percentage of tin, such as 50%, will provide better strength and adhesion, but will have a shorter range in which the solder will be workable (pasty). The more tin, the lower the temperature necessary for the solder to become liquid, and the shorter the range in which to work. For auto body repair, the 30/70 alloy is generally considered the best compromise between strength, adhesion and working latitude. The 20/80 alloy is also very popular in general body repair. In fact, 20/80 provides an additional 40ºF between the temperature at which it becomes liquid and the temperature at which it begins to soften (which extends the pasty range over 15%). The primary theoretical advantages of 30/70 over 20/80 are: Better adhesion, better flex and stretch characteristics, and a softer, easier to file surface. When used properly on a well-tinned surface, probably the only actual working advantage is on large panels that will be subject to flexing and more subject to warpage due to heat. The lower melting point of 30/70 would not allow you to reach quite as high temperatures during the application (the solder would begin to run when the melting point is reached).”
Tinning the surface is the most important step in the process. I have tried tinning butter but don’t like it. It fills the shop with acrid smoke and oftentimes results in poor coverage requiring a second application. It also seems to require more heat, which is never a good thing on non-crown areas. It’s also a dirtier process and more difficult to neutralise.
For tinning I use 50/50 wire solder and steel wool. Clean the surface really well, shiny steel and well beyond the target area, apply a thin smear of flux, gradually heat the area while dabbing the tip of the wire solder to the surface until it begins to melt (ie not being melted by the flame) then wipe quickly with the steel wool before the solder has a chance to go back into plasticus and cause the steel wool to stick to the panel. You’ll end up with a nicely tinned surface but also contaminated steel wool that needs to be disposed of properly. Tinning must be followed by neutralisation otherwise you will risk rusting under the lead deposit from the acid in the flux. This is done with a sodium bicarbonate paste followed by wiping with acetone.
So endeth the lesson.
Body solder is an art that is really fun to learn and rewarding once mastered. The OP mentioned the home restorer so this is something that can be done. Eastwood sells a set along with a helpful video. I might add that instead of using steel wool which might leave contaminants, it was recommend to use brass wool. The local Ace had it and it worked great. The kit from Eastwood came with a couple of special files and paddles and everything else. Never had any of the usual cracks at the body seams that show when an XKE is done with anything else.
Ah yes, page 5. I find that any impurities such as steel and oxides float on top of the molten solder where they are easily skimmed off with an old wooden handled spoon. I’ve never used steel wool for tinning, I just use a cotton shop rag. In my youth I signed up for a night class at the local community college that was about body repair and lead loading. When I got there I discovered that most of the “students” were merely there so they could use the shop and work on their cars. I went to the instructor, an old retired body man, and told him I wanted to learn to do lead work and showed him the equipment I had bought. He teared up when he heard that I actually wanted to learn the old ways from him. So much art is lost these days.
Greetings All,
Lead is still available, if you have the ability to use it, you have the ability to make the percentage blend you want.
Lead fillers have been around for close to 100 years.
More interested in what is used for flux.
American cars, like Jaguars used much of this in the 40’s and 50’s.
Unlike American cars, Jaguar seemed to have a few problems.
Over the years it’s been easy to find Jaguars with lead issues, usually by the bubbling due to flux not being completely washed before painting.
American cars, used lead in their front and rear pillars along with on their rear fenders. I’ve NEVER seen those seams open up like I have on othe cars. Not sure exactly what they did differently, but I’d love to know.
Was it technique, materials, really want to know how the area was cleaned of the flux?
Jm[quote=“Dick_Maury, post:9, topic:354882”]
I might add that instead of using steel wool which might leave contaminants, it was recommend to use brass wool.
[/quote]
Good tip. I’ll get some when I get back at the 120 early fall.
I’ve used a rag too, but have an unco-ordinated habit of putting it in front of the torch and setting it afire. But if you do it right the temperature of the steel you’re tinning is a fraction lower than the temperature at which cotton ignites.
Neutralisation, Lovell. Flux is acidic. It dissolves iron oxide and a bit of iron in the process, making the surface chemically clean. Left under the solder it will eat the steel away. Bicarbonate of soda paste then acetone. Takes no time at all, except maybe when you’re on a production line working for Sir William.
On what to use for tinning, My wife has recommended that linen would be more suitable than cotton - though I’m sure I’d still set the stuff afire with the torch. Looked it up and it makes sense.
melting point of 50/50 solder - 419°F
autoignition point of cotton cloth - 400°F
autoignition point of linen - 440°F
Plumbers would use moleskin material when carrying out a lead wiped joint.
The cloth would have been treated, on the surface in contact with the molten
lead, with tallow, to stop the lead sticking to the cloth.
Regards to all
John
Great idea. Will try it.