I call it max when you look into the headlight aperture and can see that the bolts are only 1 or 2 threads proud of the captured nuts inside the bonnet but, no I didn’t actually measure the width of the shims I added.
In any case, the bonnet edge to cowl gap seems right, the rear edge of the fenders seems right…as far as fore and aft is concerned.
Bill, your problem looks familiar. I fiddled for 2 weeks in my spare time until I discovered that my bonnet subframe was bent horizontally about 3/4" from center and sitting about 1/2" lower on the LH side and I didn’t know it until I tried to fit the bonnet. Easy to check - Put a level on the top of the picture frame and level the front end of the car L to R. Then I jigged up and ran a very tight string along the center line of the car front to back just above the engine, it helps if you don’t have your windscreen installed yet. Then I dropped a plum bob down to the front pivot bar on the bonnet frame to check the center. With the picture frame level, I also measured the bonnet pivot points to the floor and discovered the LH side was about 1/2" lower.
Good luck!
Anthony
Aligning body panels requires thinking backwards and upside down, very hard to do with photos and descriptions.
Looks to me all your problems emanate from the front mounting. How about removing all the front mounting hardware and prop the bonnet into position and see where the front of the bonnet needs to be to make it fit in the rear. That might at least point you in the right direction. The problem may lay in the front valance. I bought a repro from Robey for my III and it was awful in this regard, big mistake not fixing the original. The robey piece required substantial surgery to make it work
What did you use for the leveling plane? The top of the front cowl (bulkhead top seam)? The lower front mounting holes in the floor rails (lower longitudinal rails)? What is considered the “gage line” from which the rest of the car is measured? (ref. my prev. posted photos)
I used the top of the picture frame and then verified that against the protruding mounts that hold the dash to the inside of the firewall and cowl. I had no windscreen or dash installed at the time which made it easy. Both leveled out equally level on my car so I figured the engine frames were correct. I don’t see why you couldn’t use the upper frame mounts as you suggested. I didn’t use the upper fame mounts because I already had the engine in place.
did that according to Nick’s advice. shimmed the rear bonnet 5/8 off the cowl and shimmed it out to where the rear gap looked good. As you can see the rear gap is where it should be +/- about 1/16th inch along the top. The problem is at the rear fender edges/bulkhead where the fenders look like they need to be “rolled” in at the bottom half. And the bad gap at the Left sill forward. The left sill rear isn’t too bad.
Lay a straight edge, level with the door sill
Long enough to go to front of the sill under the wing. Is this straight. The sill does not look level in the picture.
will do as soon as I find one straight enough . Went to store and they were all crooked. And if they are bad enough that I can see it, that’s bad
I use a 5th aluminum ruler
Hello Bill,
As suggested to you three weeks ago in your other Thread, just go to a decent sheet metal shop and get a straight edge cut; it will probably be cheaper than buying a purpose build straight edge the length required.
Bill Wrote:
My body guy swears the L sill is straight and he lined it up when fitting, he just replaced the sill from the battery forward. Both sills are original.
The above is from an earlier Post of your’s, but now, if I comprehend your last Post correctly, you, yourself can see that the Top Line of the Sill forward of the Cowl is not in line with the Sill Top Line below the door. If you yourself can see that its not in line, then you have identified part of your issue. You will still need a straight edge to address this problem; accordingly, I would get cracking and get one.
I have an S2 OTS in work currently with a grossly misaligned Sill Top Line forward of the Cowl. The Numb Nuts that fitted a new front wing previously, which measures a good 10mm longer from top edge to bottom wired edge, made it fit by cutting through the Sill at its Top Line fold, forward of the Cowl, then literally smashing the whole edge down and welding the edge. You could see how crudely the work was carried out once the copious deposit of plastic filler was removed. Our fix was to cut the rubbish Sill Top Line material out and replace with a piece that is correctly inline with the Sill Top Line below the door and rewiring the bottom edge of the wing. Following is a picture of the Sill Top Line replacement part.
You still need to identify any other issues that may be causing the gross misalignment of your bonnet. The fact that you have a big variation of shim stack thickness is a clue in itself that all is not right with either the Lower Valance, or the geometrical set up of the Engine Frames, or Bonnet Hinge Frame. Therefore, leveling the tub and checking the position of the these members is thoroughly worthwhile.
Regards,
Bill
the floor is pitched to a central drain that means at least two different angles are running under the car.
the body guy has seen the car and swears the sill is straight
I am trying to imagine how I level this thing.
what do you suggest about the fact that the bottom of the fenders is about 3/16 wider than the sill at each side.
forgive my stupidity but isn’t the point of the shims to account for this kind of misalignment?
That’s a pretty sad state of affairs best summed up by the statement, “It only had one job to do”
Bill. Bosch makes a very nice self levelling laser that sends out a beam both horizontally and vertically. They are a couple of hundred bucks but are well worth it. Set up the laser and then using jacks and shims level your tub by measuring up or down from the horizontal beam to fixed points on the tub such as mounting holes for the frames. Make sure you use points that have not been altered in the restoration. If you are really unlucky you will find that the tub is twisted, racked off to one side (or both as mine was) Hopefully not. If it is you have to correct it. Once the tub is levelled then check the engine frames to ensure that they are level. You need to also check that the frames are not skewed off to one side at the front. The vertical beam is helpful for that check.
Hello Bill,
Which Body Guy are you talking about? The one that originally did the work on the bonnet, did a test fitting before it went into benign storage and now is a rubbish fit, or is this a new, current guy making the observation? If the original guy and based on the pictures and comments you’ve posted, I wouldn’t rely on him whatsoever.
Bill Wrote:
And if they are bad enough that I can see it, that’s bad.
So, what are you actually saying? Is it your observation that Sill Top Line forward of the Cowl is not in line with the Sill Top Line below the door? That’s the way I comprehend that sentence, but it seems to be in contradiction to trust you seem to have in the “body guy”.
If you can’t get a straight edge, get a piece of string and pull it tight just clear of the sill surface and in line with the Sill Top Line below the door. That will be good enough to tell you if you have an issue and if you really need to get a decent straight edge.
With regards to the shims, yes they are used to adjust the bonnet alignment. But when you have max thickness on one side (whatever that may be when gauging it by the protrusion of thread as you have - that would be contingent on the length of the bolt), and none on the other side, that raises a Red Flag when I see that. In the overwhelming majority of cases, when Engine Frames and all other structures are correct, the variation in shim stack thickness is no more than 6mm.
Think about it for a moment. If the gap between the rear edge of the wing and the cowl is correct and parallel, but the bonnet centre section is sitting above the scuttle panel on one side, then clearly, that side of the bonnet is too high, probably for its full length. Forgetting about the interference between the lower section of the wing and the sill for the moment, if you where to close the bonnet more so that bonnet centre section aligned with the scuttle, then the gap between the rear edge of the wing and the cowl would likely be tight at the top and shims would have to be removed to get that correct again.
Its been suggest by a number of folk in a number of ways, but you really need to go right back to basics. Level the tub and determine if the Engine Frames and Bonnet Hinge Frame are in the correct location and start fitting the bonnet from a known, good platform.
Regards,
Bill
Truly first principles that need to be definitively determined.
Wider at the bottom on both sides can be adjusted by loosening some of the lower bonnet bolts on mud shields and the 4 bolts on the rear reinforcing angle brackets (BD18767) to draw in the wings slightly and tighten them up. In fact, I had to open up a few of the holes with a round file to get one side right. Once set, align the latches. But that was one of the last things I did after I pretty much had the bonnet centered and aligned. Is there anyway you can move the tub to an area where the floor is flatter to take some measurements of the mounting points? Starting with some known correct data points seems to be the consensus here.
It took me 2 weeks in my spare time to get mine aligned. Lots of frustration and cursing. Some say installing the water pipes in the firewall is a right of passage, not me. Keep at it and don’t give up. You will eventually get it.
Good luck
Anthony
Question: I appreciate all listers help and advice. Let me just point out the this bonnet had been tagged underneath all it’s bondo, was stripped, disassembled, po’s diagonal cut across the bonnet was welded up, lots of hammer and dolly work on underpan and every other panel and, reassembled. So doesn’t it seem more likely that the bonnet itself is the problem?
Question: When you speak about the hight of the rear bonnet edge to the cowl, are you measuring that with the bonnet landing seal in place and the bonnet hooks engaged?
Sorry I don’t know how to do the dark and light print
Seal in place, rubber bumpers on the pins and the latches disengaged.
On my car:
Latches disengaged.
Latches engaged
OK Bill,
I have got some estimates of bonnet shims, difficult to measure on the car.
Right Hinge:
UP: .283 inch
Forward: .430 inch
Left Hinge:
UP: zero shims
Forward: .636 inch
OK, someone stopped by and I drafted them into being the second pair of hands. This enabled me to do a string test.
I didn’t think of the string until after the body guy had left. My bad.
So the sill end is not where it should be.
I did mention earlier on that I thought that sill edge was going to have to be moved.
And, that now I need not just a painter but a good body guy as well.
I see I don’t show the string at it’s widest point, let me find one
