I had a free morning today and decided to clean the connections to the starter. It’s not easy to a access the starter from above, but I decided to do that because I don’t have a jack at home big enought to get the car up on jackstands.
I was able to remove the A and B wires without much difficulty
but the C wire from the starter relay was wheld in place by a phillips head screw and
It just would not budge. I sprayed it with a suitable rust arrester
and will try again tomorrow.
However, the connections were clean. I think someone was
there recently, perhaps trying the same thing as I to solve a problem.
So I think a new starter is in order. I looked at Barrett but they
said the starter is obsolete and no replacment was available.
Has anyone purchased a starter motor lately?
I have a feeling that I don’t need a starter solinoid as something
in the engine compartment makes a “ding” sound each time I
turn the key to start. I think its the solinoid pushing the arm
that move the starter into lace on the flywheel. Is it advisable to purhase a starter solinoid anyway
while I’m in there. Can a starter motor be rebuilt? Is there
a company that doe that?
Interestingly, the “C” connection comes from the
starter relay and is black at the relay but then beomes red
after running through a black cover on the firewall. The “red”
wire is a cloth colored wire, unlike the vinyl
covered wire in the starter relay. It’s the same type wire that’s in
the relay of my 71 XJ6. I’m beginning to think someone rewired
some of this car.
An unrelated question. When I began to type this posting, a box
appeared on the right hand side of the screen. It was title “Your
Topic is Similar” and showed some other postings from various segments
of the site (XJ, X300, XK) The articles had a blue background and
covered half the screen such that when I typed, the writing
disappeared under the blue. I attempted to delete it but could not
and therefore only wrote on the left side
Lou, Do not start throwing new parts at your car without first finding out what the problem is. If it turns out to be the starter and you intend to replace it yourself you will need jack stands and a jack anyway. Watch some YouTube videos on how a starter works and how to test the various connections. Old Jaguars can get expensive fast unless you learn how to trouble-shoot. There are a lot of things it could be so you have to find out.
I STRONGLY advise against attempting to remove that screw, as it is brass, and the head will strip.
In addition, getting it back in is not easy, due to location.
its virtually essential to remove the starter and have it bench tested by an autolec for a few $
if the starter wont turn by direct wiring, as previously suggested, 99% it need work.
mine was rebuilt for $A160…a USA E-type owner purchased the same SM (M100) for less
wood blocks can be safely used to raise a car with low jack
there may be a body plate in the tunnel which can be removed to get the lower SM bolt
Advance Auto Parts carries several different starters for '73 XJ6 but the one I posted the photo of is #16178S at $97.99 and the same one is carried at $89.99 by Autozone and at $64.99 by Rock Auto.
To remove the big blue box without tagging onto a previous thread, click the esc X at the lower right corner.
We are concerned that your Jaguar experience is being dampened by a simple problem. Try the simple things first.
First try removing the C connection black wire you found from the relay and connecting it to a jumper wire and touch it to battery positive and tell us what happens.
If it makes a clink or ding sound down at the starter, it means the solenoid is moving, trying to push the pinion gear into the flywheel gear. But the starter motor is failing to turn, which could mean that the connections inside the solenoid are dirty or otherwise worn out. The solenoid is not really repairable, so starters and solenoids are sold together.
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If you have managed to successfully accessing the A and B connections, Lou…
The solenoid simply connect the A and B internally. Disconnect the battery cable from the battery post, and connect the A cable together with the B cable to B - this bypasses the solenoid. Applying the battery clamp to battery post; the starter will rev up - it will not engage as the bypassed solenoid will not pre-engage the starter pinion. Not entirely conclusive, as the starter may not develop full power due to faulty brushes - but if the starter does not react at all; it is defective…
An alternate test; with the solenoid cables correctly connected; connect a test lamp between B and ground. If the lamp lights up fully with key to ‘crank’ (or C jumped, bypassing the starter rely) the solenoid connects internally. Again not conclusive - corroded internal connections in the solenoid may prevent full power to starter, but may still light the test lamp.
The rub is that a fault in either the solenoid or the starter itself requires removal on the assembly; hence Rob’s good advice to ensure that there is proper solenoid action - jumpwiring to C from battery or from A.
The odd colouring of the wiring requires some care - the relative connections, A to battery (always powered), B to battery and C to starter relay. And I am still not sure that you are on the starter relay! However a rewiring is done - there is no intermediate connection between the relay and the solenoid - the same wire colour should be apparent at both ends.
Disconnect the black wire at the alleged starter relay and ohm between C and the disconnected wire - there should be zero ohms if it is the right connection…
This is a feature of the software. The idea is that the software should (gently) point out that the user may be creating a topic which has already been covered.
I don’t find it particularly helpful myself, and I suspect that it’s algorithm isn’t all that suitable for JL, but there are only 4 parameters relating to it in the settings, and as far as I can tell - no way to turn it off.
This is a generic problem with assistive software and how we meatbags react to it. We get so used to clicking the “Bugger off” button when the system asks “Are you sure?”, that we do it without even evaluating if we are sure. The consequence is that when we are about to delete all of our restoration photographs, or iTunes music, and the software warns us that this might not be desired… we just go ahead and do what we shouldn’t really want to do. The only comfort is that when you then go to restore a backup (you do take backups, right?) the system doesn’t pop up a message saying “Well, I did warn you…”.
I’ll see if I can tune the 4 parameters, but I don’t think it will make much difference.
Thanks for the various options for purchase. I’ve printed them out for future reference.
Jumping the “C” connection black wire from the relay to the battery positive produced the same sound as turning the key to the start position, a “ding” but that’s all. However, standing over the engine with the bonnet open the sound was much more metallic than sitting in the driver’s seat. It had a ring to it as though someone tapped a piece of high quality steel with a hammer.
Ok, you know your relay and ignition switch are ok. That ding of a hammer on high quality steel, like a hammer on a blacksmith’s anvil, is the starter gear hitting the flywheel gear but failing to turn.
Possible causes:
a nearly dead battery or poor battery cable connection either at the battery end or at the other end, i.e. the negative ground to the body, or the positive to that intermediate terminal on the firewall or at the solenoid.
solenoid internal contact surfaces burned or corroded or otherwise worn out.
starter motor carbon brushes and commutators burned or corroded or otherwise worn out.
Try the easy things first. Check your battery. Put a charger on it. Jump it with another car. Take it out and take it to an auto parts store; they will test it for free.
**
Are you positive the ‘ding’ comes from the starter /solenoid area, Lou…?
As an aside; the various starters used on the xk engine through the years are virtually interchangeable - but on some versions the pinion differs as ring gears had different pitch…
Yes, I was standing over the battery, with one end of the test lead connected to the black wire in the starter relay, and touching the other end of the lead to the positive battery post. There is no question in my mind that the sound was coming from the area of the starter/solinoid .
The only possible thing other than the starter/solenoid being bad is that it is sensitive to where on the ring gear it is located. I believe Lou said that the engine started sometimes but not other times. This possibility could be ruled out if the engine were rotated a tiny amount, from the crankshaft nut. If after rotating you get the exact same noise, I think it’s the starter for sure.
Of course you want to hope it’s the starter–not a bad ring gear.
What Robert means is that the little starter gear E is clunking up against the side of the big flywheel gear, not sliding in and engaging, because the starter motor is not turning.
You could try touching both the A and B terminals at the same time with pliers to see if the motor will spin.
But ultimately it seems like the starter has to come out.
Its not really all that difficult from below to get at the 2 bolts with a socket wrench and long extension.
Disconnect the battery beforehand.
Invest in a good jack and jack stands.
Here is how to use them. Jack under the center of the cross member. Stands under the round front ends of the cross member.
I found out there is an oval sheetmetal plate in all MKX/420G, and (S1 XJ as well I think), on the tunnel, and its ONLY job in life is to give easy access to the lower SM bolt, which otherwise needs ~36" of extensions. It is hidden under the console, carpet, underfelt
It is NOT mentioned anywhere in the FSM…it can be detected by sliding fingers inside tunnel under car and feeling for sharp points of self-tap screws.
The upper bolt should be done from above (I sprawl across the engine, suitably cushioned)
turns a SM R&R from a hideous job to something I did on my own in a couple of hours, car stays on ground
…but the black on the relay and the red on the solenoid for the presumably same wire is utterly bewildering. I would dearly love to verify connection by disconnecting the black at the relay and ohming between C and the disconnected wire at the relay.
However, I consider that C should be jumped directly to batt pos - to ensure that the solenoid is getting full power. Best way is to first connect the jumper wire to C, ensuring against touching ground - then touch the jumperwire to batt pos…
As an aside; if the pinion does not slide into mesh with the starter ring gear - a spring holds the pinion against the ring gear while allowing full solenoid travel to make the internal electric connection in the solenoid. With the starter motor’s initial turning the spring will immediately force the pinion into full mesh…
The main point of all this testing is to ensure that if the starter is replaced - that there is no possibility that the fault is anywhere but the starter/starter solenoid…
