Clutch Arm Pivot Shaft (Rod) C9857 Fell Out of Transmission

E-Type
1

Greetings —

I have inserted this query in the E-Type forum in the hopes of attracting more responses — it is a very active forum and my inquiry relates to parts common to many Jaguars of the E-Type era and this problem has obliquely cropped up in the E-Type forum as well (I also “speak E-Type,” owning a S2 FHC for 25 years and counting).

I have recently acquired a 1967 340 (MK2) that sat in a basement for decades. It was converted from automatic to manual “back in the day” and I believe the transmission to be a Moss box due to the shift pattern.

Complete and largely (but not entirely) rust free (it will need crows feet, a couple of jacking points, and, of course, spring hangers), it seemed like a pretty good “investment” (ha, ha).

My initial objective was to get the car running under its own power and stopping from very slow speeds to move it around my property and to get it on and off my very elevated hydraulic lift.

The engine is now running (after a fashion), I have three pistons out of eight braking (the rest being blocked off), new tires (the old ones would have deleted the world’s remaining supply of Dunlop Bottom Air™) and the clutch WAS disengaging — and therein lies the “BIG PROBLEM.”

My son and I (well

Clutch%20Arm%20Pivot%20Shaft%20C9857%20%5BIMG_0813%5D
Clutch Arm Pivot Shaft C9857 [IMG_0813].JPG2307×1730 2 MB
, my son — thanks Johnny!) ably rebuilt the clutch master cylinder but the slave cylinder let go shortly thereafter. Upon rebuilding the slave cylinder, the clutch pedal would only travel a few inches and then stopped.

Checking underneath the car, Johnny observed a “rather important looking pin.”

It appears to be the “clutch arm pivot shaft” P/N C9857.

There was what I believe were a references to this shaft in the E-Type forum thread Weirdest Clutch Problem Ever?, to wit:

“hi Mike, i had a problem like this. the pivot pin for the fork fell out. you should be able to see it with a flashlight looking up through hole in bottom of bellhousing near trans.”

and

“Years ago I was restoring a 64 E Type for my son. He came to visit because the car was incomplete but drivable. We went downtown for dinner and as he made a turn, something fell off of his car. (I remember his fiancee said it sounded “shiny” at the time. ) I picked up the pivot rod from the intersection and was lamenting the pending work when, fortunately, a JL member had a simple solution which is still in that car. I was surprised the car remained drivable until I fixed it although the clutch felt pretty strange (but not always). I am anxious to see it apart.”

and

“Somehow, while driving home last night, part of my car apparently
disappeared. As I shifted the clutch felt different; way too much
freeplayand the pedeal take up was totally different. Today I jacked the
car up and examined the TO bearing operating fork. I have a 1-1/2 hole in
the bottom of the bellhousing directly below the TO bearing. Looking in
that hole I could see the shaft (C9857) that holds the operating fork in
place has disappeared. I believe I can insert a new shaft through the hole.”

I would thus assume that this is not an unheard-of problem (but really, really, really weird IMHO).

So, I ask the Wise Souls of this forum the following:

(1) WHY did the rod fall out?

(2) CAN it be inserted without a whole lot of fuss (like removing the engine and gearbox) and, if so, HOW?

(3) WHAT can I do to keep this from happening again?

and, finally,

(4) WHY do I keep buying old Jaguars? (okay, that’s rhetorical — no need to answer).

Any and all help would be much appreciated.

Regards,

— Kevin

(‘67 340, ’69 E FHC, ’01 XJR, ’01 S-Type, and ’03 S-Type (with NAS 5-speed manual))

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2

What’s your bell housing look like? Normally the only openings you’d find would be the timing aperture at the top (no way it could come out of there), and a small inspection hole at the bottom, normally covered by a steel flap cover (unlikely it fell out of there).

So has someone hacked into it previously? If so maybe you can find a way to get it back in but I have no idea how you could affix it and safety wire it in place. I suspect you’re looking at an engine removal.

3

That shaft is retained with a 1/4-28 set screw that is slightly tapered on the end. It threads into the fork and the tapered end protrudes into the shaft. It is retained by a hex “lock” nut. On mine the screw was broken off at the fork as someone had over tightened the nut. I made a new one and tapered the end on my lathe.
I suspect you will need to separate the transmission to get at it.

4

As others have said, the repair is an engine-out operation.

Welcome to Jaguardom!

5

It happens, it happened to me 15 years a go. On the E-type it’s an engine out job.

The thread from back the:

I used thread locker and IIRC, I also drilled the set screw (bolt) head for safety wire when I put everything back together.

6

Kevin You can reinsert it through the hole with a little dexterity. The problem is securing it into place. If you didn’t want to pull the engine - which is the only way to insert the locking bolt on the shaft, you can make up an apparatus to hold it in. I’d drill and thread the shaft for a 1/4" bolt that comes to the bottom of the hole in the bellhousing then tap and screw a piece of steel into the bell housing covering the hole to hold it in - the bolt being locked into the shaft with a locking nut and riding on the blanking steel. Had one come out on my race car - needed some ingenuity to keep racing.

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Racing is the MUTHA of invention!

That is definitely an option.

8

a repair of sorts is possible without removing engine & etc. my method was not much fun and required too much intimacy with bellhousing. it sounded like mike had a better method so perhaps he will respond with it. i simply inserted a bolt and threaded it into a nylock.

9

You can reinsert it through the hole with a little dexterity.

I think that will work! Thank you so much!

Any pointers on actually maneuvering the shaft into the hole, lining stuff, up, etc., etc. would be appreciated. I have a bore scope – might that help?

10

Bear in mind, you don’t simply need to reinsert it. You have to reinsert it while aligning the fork with the pin (hopefully keeping it all clean and uncontaminated), and then get a new locking bolt in place. This presumes that the old bolt fell out rather than having sheared. Make sure you can do all of these things with whatever a limited access you have.

11

The hole is there to permit removal of the shaft - it has to come both out and in through that hole - there is no other way to do it, so it’s in a direct line to go in. I’d disconnect the slave from the fork so you can get the maximum amount of movement with it. After that it should be easy to align. Even easier would be to get a piece of steel rod the right diameter (it’s a common size) and put a point on the inner end to facilitate alignment with the fork. Make it long enough to reach the outside of the hole before covering the hole with something to keep it in. Be careful not to force it. The pylons that hold the shaft and fork have bushings that you don’t want to push out.

12

Terry –

Thank you so much for your kind advice. You and the other kind souls on this forum have have given me some much-needed relief!

– Kevin

13

Wish I’d seen this 15 years ago. :laughing:

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14

Just had this happen to me! Grrrr.

15

What a magnificent forum this is! I received an e-mail notice about a post to this ancient thread which prompted me to provide an update.

In short, the repair worked and continues to work (although the car has just been driven in the yard and on and off the lift).

My son bought the replacement rod at Lowe’s.

Note again that I think I have a Moss box but I can’t imagine that this repair to the all-synchro box would produce a different result.

16

It is a great resource! I’ve owned my car for 32 years and pretty much do all my own work including some pretty nasty jobs. Luckily, the rod on my car fell out into the middle of the street a couple houses down so I saw it and picked it up. I wasn’t sure what it was and almost threw it away. At first it looked like something from out of a hydraulic floor jack. I wasn’t too far off. Did you use Terry Sturgeon’s (inlinesix) fix?

17

I used to have the Moss box (reverse gear is to the left of first) but converted it to a 5 speed many years ago, but everything clutch related is still Jaguar. I can see up into the bellhousing and doing this fix doesn’t appear to be that difficult. I’m having both ends of the rod tapped at the machine shop just in case there’s some way to to get a nut and washer on the top end of that rod if I run in a short threaded stud. Over the years I’ve devised some crafty methods to get fasteners fished into tight spaces my fingers can’t reach. Any additional advice? I’m all ears. Thanks!

18

Yes, my son used inlinesix’s (Terry Sturgeon’s) fix.

His only advice was not to cut the replacement bar too short – assuming the fastening that you described does not work, I think you want it to be even with the opening so it can be restrained in some fashion (in our case, (temporarily) duct tape – is there nothing it can’t do?

Craftiness is both inspired and required for our Jags. See, for example, [E-Type] Front Universal Joint UJ Replacement with C-Clamp Type Tool? – many said it could not be done, but I did it!

(Why do I keep buying these cars??? I just bought my sixth (6th) Jag three weeks ago! Clearly I’m crazy!)

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Thanks for the follow up. I’m planning on using Terry’s fix, but while browsing the aisles at my local fastener supplies store I found a 1/2 x 3 1/2 inch “button headed shoulder bolt”, and cobbled up a nut/washer combo. After I get the shoulder bolt inserted, I just might be able to fish the nut/washer up far enough to catch a couple of threads. If I can do that, I’m home free and as good as new. I’ll post my progress.

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20

We’re all crazy. I’m on Jags 1, 6 & 7 and still haven’t managed to learn my lesson. They’re like potato chips, you can’t just have one. :worried:

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