[concours] A question on Driven Class

Go to www.jcna.com. The rulebook is on-line.

The problem with the situation as you present it is that there is no way to
verify anything other than that the car was driven onto the site. Change the
rule and the guy just doesn’t tell anyone he trailered the car in. As far as
the relative fairness or unfairness goes, what about a person who lives a
mile from the site. He has as much of an advantage as the guy who trailered
his car in.

I agree there is something unseemly about trailering a Driven Class car, but
there can be extenuating circumstances, like if the person has a
Championship Class car to show, too. If he has a two car trailer, it makes
more sense to trailer both. You can’t make him trailer one and drive the
other.

Frustrating as it is, if you are really serious about winning, you’ll need
to bring your detailing supplies with you, or set up an appointment with a
good detail shop before the show.

“Mark 1” Mark Stephenson
1952 XK120 Roadster #S673129 (w/XK140 engine and C head)
1958 3.4 Litre Saloon / 1984 XJ6 4.2L / 1985 XJ6 VDP / 1986 XJ6 VDP
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona (USA) – Internet Service Provider, TV & Phone | Sparklight Original Message -----
From: “John R. Walker” jrwalker@ev1.net
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 9:29 PM
Subject: [concours] A question on Driven Class

I just attended a concours where I was showing in D3. Another participant
in D3 trailered his car 250 miles to the motel the night before the
concours
and then drove it the last 6 miles to the show the next morning. How do I
know he did this? He told me.

I think we all agree this does not meet the spirit of having the driven
class. I asked the head judge, prior to the start of judging, if that met
the requirements of driven class and was told it is acceptable since the
participant drove the car to the concours site. I was not protesting, I
was
just asking a question. That was is his on the spot decision and I was
and
am certainly willing to abide by it.

Here’s the question: Is what I was told correct? If so, I think there is
a
flaw in the rules. Someone who trailers a car for 250 miles and drives
the
last six has a distinct advantage over someone who drives the entire
distance since the cleaning facilities at the concours are usually pretty
basic when compared to what a typical owner might have at home. I would
hope that this is not a common practice and that driven class will not
soon
be populated by simi-trailer queens (not intended as a knock against those
who trailer for championship competition).

There should be a change to the rules to state something like “Entries in
driven classes must be driven to the site of the concours from the local
in
which the vehicle is normally garaged. No transportation by trailer or
other vehicle shall be permitted.” If the entrant trailers the car and
drives it the last few miles give them the option of being disqualified or
competing in championship class.

How does one go about proposing a rules change?

Regards, John Walker
69 E-type 2+2

I just attended a concours where I was showing in D3. Another participant
in D3 trailered his car 250 miles to the motel the night before the concours
and then drove it the last 6 miles to the show the next morning. How do I
know he did this? He told me.

I think we all agree this does not meet the spirit of having the driven
class. I asked the head judge, prior to the start of judging, if that met
the requirements of driven class and was told it is acceptable since the
participant drove the car to the concours site. I was not protesting, I was
just asking a question. That was is his on the spot decision and I was and
am certainly willing to abide by it.

Here’s the question: Is what I was told correct? If so, I think there is a
flaw in the rules. Someone who trailers a car for 250 miles and drives the
last six has a distinct advantage over someone who drives the entire
distance since the cleaning facilities at the concours are usually pretty
basic when compared to what a typical owner might have at home. I would
hope that this is not a common practice and that driven class will not soon
be populated by simi-trailer queens (not intended as a knock against those
who trailer for championship competition).

There should be a change to the rules to state something like “Entries in
driven classes must be driven to the site of the concours from the local in
which the vehicle is normally garaged. No transportation by trailer or
other vehicle shall be permitted.” If the entrant trailers the car and
drives it the last few miles give them the option of being disqualified or
competing in championship class.

How does one go about proposing a rules change?

Regards, John Walker
69 E-type 2+2

John,
The current rule simply states, “No trailering or towing is allowed in the
Driven Division”.

If you want to propose a rule change, you must send it to Dick Howe, I think by
the end of October. I would suggest you do it right now, Dick Howe
richardhowe@home.com.

I would suggest wording similar to the following:

No trailering or towing is allowed in the Driven Division. Entries in
driven classes must be driven to the site of the concours from the location in
which the vehicle is normally garaged. Entrants who trailer the car and
drive it the last few miles to the concours will be disqualified. It is
suggested that such cars compete in the appropriate championship class.

Steve Kennedy
Denve--------

“John R. Walker” wrote:

I just attended a concours where I was showing in D3. Another participant
in D3 trailered his car 250 miles to the motel the night before the concours
and then drove it the last 6 miles to the show the next morning. How do I
know he did this? He told me.

I think we all agree this does not meet the spirit of having the driven
class. I asked the head judge, prior to the start of judging, if that met
the requirements of driven class and was told it is acceptable since the
participant drove the car to the concours site. I was not protesting, I was
just asking a question. That was is his on the spot decision and I was and
am certainly willing to abide by it.

Here’s the question: Is what I was told correct? If so, I think there is a
flaw in the rules. Someone who trailers a car for 250 miles and drives the
last six has a distinct advantage over someone who drives the entire
distance since the cleaning facilities at the concours are usually pretty
basic when compared to what a typical owner might have at home. I would
hope that this is not a common practice and that driven class will not soon
be populated by simi-trailer queens (not intended as a knock against those
who trailer for championship competition).

There should be a change to the rules to state something like “Entries in
driven classes must be driven to the site of the concours from the local in
which the vehicle is normally garaged. No transportation by trailer or
other vehicle shall be permitted.” If the entrant trailers the car and
drives it the last few miles give them the option of being disqualified or
competing in championship class.

How does one go about proposing a rules change?

Regards, John Walker
69 E-type 2+2

I thought it was a national rule but we ( sfjc) do not allow driven cars to
trailered to the concours.

Which makes sense, I am surprised that some club allows it.

We drove 230 miles each way yesterday to the Sarasota concours, I took the
XKR since the E-type isn’t fixed yet, 2 other members went with an XJS and
an S2 OTS. Cars were pretty dirty once we got there, lots of rain leaving
Miami, but that’s what driven cars are all about.

I entered in display ( judging a new car doesn’t make any sense to me ), the
other 2 entered in driven after a very quick clean up. Not sure how they did
but they didn’t care…

I recall a 120 driving from california to colorado springs last year and
entering in Concours. That’s the right thing to do, trailering a driven is a
shame, shame on clubs who allow it ! Another member went friday night with a
S3 OTS, he drove it the 230 miles to Sarasota and entered in Concours class.
That’s the spirit !

Actually the JCNA rules states that no trailering or towing is allowed in
the driven division. It’s general enough to include the entire trip in my
opinion.

Pascal
Miami, FL

According to the letter of the rules, he is correct. As a judge, we see
this on occaision if the contestant has a very long drive. The last
concours we had here in Louisville, it rained the morning of the event.
I entered my 95 after I drove it 50 miles through the rain. So I had to
start completely over cleaning the car for the event plus get ready to
judge. I won’t do that again! If I had a covered trailer I would have
trailered it, and drove the last two miles at a crawl. Jagdoc

writes:On Sat, 30 Sep 2000 21:29:09 -0700 “John R. Walker” jrwalker@ev1.net

I just attended a concours where I was showing in D3. Another
participant
in D3 trailered his car 250 miles to the motel the night before the
concours
and then drove it the last 6 miles to the show the next morning.
How do I
know he did this? He told me.

I think we all agree this does not meet the spirit of having the
driven
class. I asked the head judge, prior to the start of judging, if
that met
the requirements of driven class and was told it is acceptable since
the
participant drove the car to the concours site. I was not
protesting, I was
just asking a question. That was is his on the spot decision and I
was and
am certainly willing to abide by it.

Here’s the question: Is what I was told correct? If so, I think
there is a
flaw in the rules. Someone who trailers a car for 250 miles and
drives the
last six has a distinct advantage over someone who drives the entire
distance since the cleaning facilities at the concours are usually
pretty
basic when compared to what a typical owner might have at home. I
would
hope that this is not a common practice and that driven class will
not soon
be populated by simi-trailer queens (not intended as a knock against
those
who trailer for championship competition).

There should be a change to the rules to state something like
“Entries in
driven classes must be driven to the site of the concours from the
local in
which the vehicle is normally garaged. No transportation by trailer
or
other vehicle shall be permitted.” If the entrant trailers the car
and
drives it the last few miles give them the option of being
disqualified or
competing in championship class.

How does one go about proposing a rules change?

Regards, John Walker
69 E-type 2+2


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In driven the engine compartement isn’t judged, it’s not that much effort to
clean up the body and wheels when you get there.

Allowing driven to be trailered is unfair to the guy who drove thru the
rain.

Pascal----- Original Message -----
From: “David S Meck” dmeck@juno.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: [concours] A question on Driven Class

According to the letter of the rules, he is correct. As a judge, we see
this on occaision if the contestant has a very long drive. The last
concours we had here in Louisville, it rained the morning of the event.
I entered my 95 after I drove it 50 miles through the rain. So I had to
start completely over cleaning the car for the event plus get ready to
judge. I won’t do that again! If I had a covered trailer I would have
trailered it, and drove the last two miles at a crawl. Jagdoc

Mark, Steve, Pascal, David: Thanks for the responses. I think I will send
a note to Dick Howe and use the word suggested by Steve.

When we hold our concours in Houston I will drive 7 miles from my house to
the site. There is a difference than if I just drove that distance after
trailering 250 miles? I wind up driving seven miles from the site by pure
happenstance, not because I trailered most of the distance to “preserve” the
at home detailing.

And yes, I take the proper detailing equipment with me. There is still a
difference in what you can do at a concours as compared to at home in a
garage.

Regards, John Walker----- Original Message -----
From: David S Meck dmeck@juno.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 7:53 AM
Subject: Re: [concours] A question on Driven Class

According to the letter of the rules, he is correct. As a judge, we see
this on occaision if the contestant has a very long drive. The last
concours we had here in Louisville, it rained the morning of the event.
I entered my 95 after I drove it 50 miles through the rain. So I had to
start completely over cleaning the car for the event plus get ready to
judge. I won’t do that again! If I had a covered trailer I would have
trailered it, and drove the last two miles at a crawl. Jagdoc

On Sat, 30 Sep 2000 21:29:09 -0700 “John R. Walker” <@John_R_Walker>
writes:

I just attended a concours where I was showing in D3. Another
participant
in D3 trailered his car 250 miles to the motel the night before the
concours
and then drove it the last 6 miles to the show the next morning.
How do I
know he did this? He told me.

I think we all agree this does not meet the spirit of having the
driven
class. I asked the head judge, prior to the start of judging, if
that met
the requirements of driven class and was told it is acceptable since
the
participant drove the car to the concours site. I was not
protesting, I was
just asking a question. That was is his on the spot decision and I
was and
am certainly willing to abide by it.

Here’s the question: Is what I was told correct? If so, I think
there is a
flaw in the rules. Someone who trailers a car for 250 miles and
drives the
last six has a distinct advantage over someone who drives the entire
distance since the cleaning facilities at the concours are usually
pretty
basic when compared to what a typical owner might have at home. I
would
hope that this is not a common practice and that driven class will
not soon
be populated by simi-trailer queens (not intended as a knock against
those
who trailer for championship competition).

There should be a change to the rules to state something like
“Entries in
driven classes must be driven to the site of the concours from the
local in
which the vehicle is normally garaged. No transportation by trailer
or
other vehicle shall be permitted.” If the entrant trailers the car
and
drives it the last few miles give them the option of being
disqualified or
competing in championship class.

How does one go about proposing a rules change?

Regards, John Walker
69 E-type 2+2


YOU’RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there’s no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

In a message dated 10/1/00 10:33:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
skennedy@ecentral.com writes:

<< No trailering or towing is allowed in the Driven Division. Entries in
driven classes must be driven to the site of the concours from the location
in
which the vehicle is normally garaged. Entrants who trailer the car and
drive it the last few miles to the concours will be disqualified. It is
suggested that such cars compete in the appropriate championship class. >>

  • Good words, Steve…but it’s a toughie. There are those that will bring
    their car a good many mile to a show but also accept the reality that it’s
    not an acceptable risk to drive the car that distance (Pascal excluded). It
    would seem to me that even minimal “driving” would be acceptable in order to
    get maximum participation and encourage diversity (read not always the same
    cars over and over) at a club’s event. If you have to drive further, the
    rework is just part of the planning decisons.

In my very limited concours experience (4 total now), it is more disturbing
to me to see the few who come, having prepped their car fully intending to
participate in the “championship” division but after reviewing the
competition, register in the “driven” class. That’s kinda’ too bad for many
reasons. Not the least of which is, it reduces the competition in the
“trailer queen” division :slight_smile: …Bring it on! I think it’s good for the
event and the concours concept. Despite the competition, this is supposed to
be both fun and good for the marque preservation. I’d be against anything
that increases exclusiveness.

Bob Hotaling
69 OTS

John, I can understand your consternation with the part trailered and driven.
Are the judges to follow everybody from their point of origin to the concour?
At least he drove it the 6 miles. Me thinks this is way to trifle to be
hashed out. Would you have rather had him drive through muddy road
construction those 6 miles? Peter Fino, Illinois Jaguar Club.

Conversely, I have met some championship entrants who drive great distances
and manage to compete very well. I am very new to the concours circuit and I
compete in Driven Class as well. I could think of a couple dozen rules
changes to address various inequities. However, in the long run, I think new
rules would tend to complicate matters and become fodder for even more
disagreements.

Additionally, all the rules in the world can’t eliminate the obvious ( to
me, anyway) disparity in what different judges “see” when doing their jobs.
I have shown my car 3 times and the differences in deductions makes
interesting…and sometimes amusing…conversation.

Doug Dwyer
Longview, Washington USA

The question on what constitutes “driving” to the event is one that I was
just introduced to. My driven-class XJ-S is used daily in my commute to work
and, thus, I put some miles on it. For local events, I do indeed drive the
entire round trip. But I was encouraged to compete in a regional event and
that would have been some distance. I was going to trailer it for the sake
of miles on the car, not grime. Then I received the registration form for
another event within my state and it specifically stated no trailering for
driven class. To me, the point is not the grime, it is the miles that are
put on these beautiful cars that we are trying to preserve for the future.
One should be able to both enjoy and show these cars without unwarranted
miles being imposed upon them to get to events. It is one thing to drive 300
miles round trip to a show and another to drive 800-1,000. We should be
appreciating these wonderful cars, not driving them into the ground beyond
normal use.

Right on, Bob!

Well, I guess everyone’s entitled to their own opinions but, as far as I’m
concerned, an 800-1000 mile road trip IS “normal” use for a Jaguar and, from
a wear-and-tear aspect, would probably be less harmful than short daily
commutes !

Doug Dwyer
Longview, Washington USA----- Original Message -----
From: DrBled@aol.com

snipped
It is one thing to drive 300
miles round trip to a show and another to drive 800-1,000. We should be
appreciating these wonderful cars, not driving them into the ground beyond
normal use.

I am driving my '91 XJ-S Classic Collection round trip 30 miles per day from
home garage to enclosed parking garage at work on a high speed beltway (no
stop and go, thank heaven!). Those are good miles. To add 800 or more miles
just to show my car in the “driven” class at a competition with no trailer
adds unwarranted miles to a car that there are fewer than 1,000 of. This is
silly. In the driven class, my boot and hood are not part of the
competition. My mechanicals, interior, and exterior are. Let’s leave it at
that. We should be enjoying these cars, not driving them into the ground.
They are works of art.

It’s ok with me!

My wife and I once drove our 62 Chrysler 300H from LA to Victoria , BC. We
had to work late into the night and early the next morning to get the car
cleaned up. (I actually got stuck in the snow in the mountains!)-we competed
against cars that were trailered in.

We won our class. That trophy is one we especially treasure because of the
competetion we faced.

Mike Moore
70S1

Fair enough! I admire the care lavished upon your Jag. As I said, this is
just a difference of philosophy or opinion. Personally, to trailer my Jag
when I COULD be driving it would be torture !

Again, IMHO, these cars are built to last a lifetime with regular care. I
drive mine at every possible opportunity, for any distance, with no fear of
running it into the ground. Of course, I maintain the old girl lovingly.

I’ll readily concede, however, that I don’t own a special model and, as the
miles pile up, I’ll certainly have more and more sympathetic repairs and
maintenance ahead of me.

Cheers and happy Jagging !
Doug Dwyer
Longview, Washington USA
1987 XJ6 104K miles 98.45 points Driven Class.

I am driving my '91 XJ-S Classic Collection round trip 30 miles per day
from
home garage to enclosed parking garage at work on a high speed beltway (no
stop and go, thank heaven!). Those are good miles. To add 800 or more
miles
just to show my car in the “driven” class at a competition with no trailer
adds unwarranted miles to a car that there are fewer than 1,000 of. This
is
silly. In the driven class, my boot and hood are not part of the
competition. My mechanicals, interior, and exterior are. Let’s leave it
at----- Original Message -----
From: DrBled@aol.com
that. We should be enjoying these cars, not driving them into the ground.
They are works of art.

absolutely right. Beside, all the parts that will wear are available for
almost all Jaguars, at least XK120s on, so wear and tear is no real excuse
in driven. If it is then take it into Champion class.

One of the point in driven is that the engine ins’t judged so that you have
some leeway to make the car reliable.

Pascal
Miami, FL

Well, I guess everyone’s entitled to their own opinions but, as far as I’m
concerned, an 800-1000 mile road trip IS “normal” use for a Jaguar and,
from----- Original Message -----
From: “Doug Dwyer” DWYERD@email.msn.com
a wear-and-tear aspect, would probably be less harmful than short daily
commutes !

Doug Dwyer
Longview, Washington USA

How the heck are you supposed to enforce that? Concours gestapo?

If I want to go to a concours that is 750 miles away and I want to take the
wife, kids and dog. I may very well trailer the car behind the mobile home
and then unload it at the campground.

“Driven” cars are supposed to be driven on a regular basis. Perhaps JCNA can
check odometer readings on cars that compete in Driven classes. If the
odometer says the owner only put 50 miles on his car since last year’s
concours then he is violating the spirit of “Driven”. Of course, even that
could be fudged if the owner is bound and bent on cheating.

An owner who enters a “trailer queen” in driven class is only fooling
himself. It should be left up to the discretion of the judges and concours
organizers to kick a participant out of Driven class and into councours
class.

Daniel-----Original Message-----
From: John R. Walker [mailto:jrwalker@ev1.net]
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 12:29 AM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [concours] A question on Driven Class

I just attended a concours where I was showing in D3. Another participant
in D3 trailered his car 250 miles to the motel the night before the concours
and then drove it the last 6 miles to the show the next morning. How do I
know he did this? He told me.

I think we all agree this does not meet the spirit of having the driven
class. I asked the head judge, prior to the start of judging, if that met
the requirements of driven class and was told it is acceptable since the
participant drove the car to the concours site. I was not protesting, I was
just asking a question. That was is his on the spot decision and I was and
am certainly willing to abide by it.

Here’s the question: Is what I was told correct? If so, I think there is a
flaw in the rules. Someone who trailers a car for 250 miles and drives the
last six has a distinct advantage over someone who drives the entire
distance since the cleaning facilities at the concours are usually pretty
basic when compared to what a typical owner might have at home. I would
hope that this is not a common practice and that driven class will not soon
be populated by simi-trailer queens (not intended as a knock against those
who trailer for championship competition).

There should be a change to the rules to state something like “Entries in
driven classes must be driven to the site of the concours from the local in
which the vehicle is normally garaged. No transportation by trailer or
other vehicle shall be permitted.” If the entrant trailers the car and
drives it the last few miles give them the option of being disqualified or
competing in championship class.

How does one go about proposing a rules change?

Regards, John Walker
69 E-type 2+2

Well, I never expected that number of responses to my original post. I
suspect many of us are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

A friend of mine from England tells me all entries there are driven to the
concours. No trailering permitted regardless of class. Of course the
distances there are typically shorter than over here.

Thanks for all the responses.

Regards, John Walker

In a message dated 10/2/00 10:14:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jrwalker@ev1.net writes:

<< A friend of mine from England tells me all entries there are driven to the
concours. No trailering permitted regardless of class. Of course the
distances there are typically shorter than over here. >>

  • Have you ever tried to drag a trailer around England’s roads? I have…
    I’d find a way to drive the car to the show too :slight_smile:

Bob Hotaling
69 OTS