[concours] All these classes

Just who is going to buy all these trophies? When you have
classes,sub-classes,sub-sub-classes, you make it incumbant upon the
clubs to spend their whole annual budget on Concours trophies just to be
sure you have your bases covered. The other alternative is to announce
the winners at the awards ceremony with trophies to follow later as
needed.

Not all clubs have the sponsorship or financial wherewithall to host
this many classes.

Len Wheeler

well that’s the way it is right now, what do we have, 30 classes or
something ?

Because of the left over trophies from year to year, we end up giving the
same JCNA standard cups and plates, this way we don’t have to buy a complete
new set…

This would be one of the benefits of reducing the number of classes

Pascal----- Original Message -----
From: “Len Wheeler” lenscats@flash.net
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 1:39 PM
Subject: [concours] All these classes

Just who is going to buy all these trophies? When you have
classes,sub-classes,sub-sub-classes, you make it incumbant upon the
clubs to spend their whole annual budget on Concours trophies just to be
sure you have your bases covered. The other alternative is to announce
the winners at the awards ceremony with trophies to follow later as
needed.

Not all clubs have the sponsorship or financial wherewithall to host
this many classes.

Len Wheeler

If I understand one of the proposals, the E-type classes might be combined
for one concours and separated for the next depending on the number of
entries.

If that is correct my gut feeling is that such a move would not provide a
very level playing field. One might easily be competing against only Series
II cars in one concours and against Series I, II and III in the next. There
is no consistency in the competition. Under that proposal I would guess
that low number Series I cars would dominate the standings where those cars
are shown. Not many Series II owners are willing to prepare their cars to
the same level of detail as the owner of a “historically significant” (i.e.
low number) Series I car. Would this promote a decrease in Series II and
perhaps Series III participation?

For the same reason I think the competition and special interest classes
should not be combined. Most of the competition class entries I have seen
are relatively rare and valuable race cars that have been carefully restored
and/or maintained by their owners. Other very presentable cars, modified by
their owners, to enhance their performance and drivability won’t stand a
chance.

This entire discussion started because of a concern about C13 and D7
classes. Has the current classification structure become unworkable and in
need of an overhaul or is the problem just with C13 and D7. I am not saying
“Don’t change anything” but we should carefully consider all of the
ramifications of any changes.

As for trophies, I would be just as happy with a certificate, ribbon or
small brass plaque.

Regards, John Walker
69 2+2

John

The discussion started with the C13/D7 question but then it’s clear that to
split a class, you need to group another 2 if we don’t want the total number
to grow.

Steve then started counting entries and it became clear that a few classes
have few entries and are prime candidate for consolidation. I don’t think
the E-type classes are one of them though. It’s the most popular group in nr
of entries.

Pascal----- Original Message -----
From: “Walker, John JR SITI-ITDFP” jrwalker@shell.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 2:39 PM
Subject: RE: [concours] All these classes

If I understand one of the proposals, the E-type classes might be combined
for one concours and separated for the next depending on the number of
entries.

If that is correct my gut feeling is that such a move would not provide a
very level playing field. One might easily be competing against only
Series
II cars in one concours and against Series I, II and III in the next.
There
is no consistency in the competition. Under that proposal I would guess
that low number Series I cars would dominate the standings where those
cars
are shown. Not many Series II owners are willing to prepare their cars to
the same level of detail as the owner of a “historically significant”
(i.e.
low number) Series I car. Would this promote a decrease in Series II and
perhaps Series III participation?

For the same reason I think the competition and special interest classes
should not be combined. Most of the competition class entries I have seen
are relatively rare and valuable race cars that have been carefully
restored
and/or maintained by their owners. Other very presentable cars, modified
by
their owners, to enhance their performance and drivability won’t stand a
chance.

This entire discussion started because of a concern about C13 and D7
classes. Has the current classification structure become unworkable and
in
need of an overhaul or is the problem just with C13 and D7. I am not
saying
“Don’t change anything” but we should carefully consider all of the
ramifications of any changes.

As for trophies, I would be just as happy with a certificate, ribbon or
small brass plaque.

Regards, John Walker
69 2+2

Pascal wrote: "The discussion started with the C13/D7 question but then
it’s clear that to split a class, you need to group another 2 if we don’t
want the total number
to grow.

Steve then started counting entries and it became clear that a few classes
have few entries and are prime candidate for consolidation. I don’t think
the E-type classes are one of them though. It’s the most popular group in nr
of entries.+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Pascal: I was basing my comments on Mark Stephenson’s post of last
Wednesday, # 107 in the October archives. My concern would be that it is
possible to combine classes in such a way that potential entrants would
decide not to participate because they wouldn’t have a chance to win, place
or show. I know the main point of concours is to promote the marque and
have fun so it shouldn’t matter if one wins or not, but it is nice to take
home some hardware now and then.

Regards, John

(bounced due to verbotten word - sub - admin)

Len, that’s the benefit to a small club of my proposal. You base classes and
trophies on the number of pre-registrations. Steve has presented the concept
of classes and sub-classes. In my proposal, when you consider all the
sub-classes, there are two more than we have now. I’d probably modify that
downward slightly.

The XJS split is one that I’m throwing out to see if a viable split is
possible. Because there is currently no accounting for engine types at
concours, there is no telling whether there would be enough cars for a
viable 6 cyl class.

Nevertheless, both Steve’s and my proposals give clubs latitude regarding
the number of classes they have and thus the number of trophies they award.
The numbered classes would have to be offered. In my proposal, that would be
a minimum of 9 championship and 7 driven. Currently there are 20 and 10. The
sub-classes are optional based on the number of preregistered entrants in
the class.

For example, there is one main class for the E-types, but three sub-classes.
The rule of thumb that I presented, which I haven’t suggested we hard-code
into law, but urge adoption by local clubs, is that if there are six or more
cars in a main class, that class should be divided into sub-classes if
possible.

I fully expect that the E-type class will be the one most commonly split.
So, if a club has 3 S1s, an S2 and an S3 preregistered for their concours,
the class would remain intact and First, Second, and Third would be given
for the whole class. If there were 2 S2s, instead of one, then the club
would award trophies for three S1s, and the two S2s plus the S3 would be in
competition. Add another S2 and you’d have to decide whether to split the 2s
and 3s. I wouldn’t, but I’d leave that up to the club. Another couple S3s,
and I’d split the 2s and 3s, but that’s just my opinion. At a large
concours, there might be 8 or 10 championship S1s. The club would have the
option of splitting the class if they wanted to. That split could be
3.8/4.2, open/closed, or by year. The decision to split and how would be
totally up to the club, but the goal would be to create two evenly divided
classes based on some innate difference in the cars. Production year would
not be a good criterion.

This brings me to John’s excellent point about competition from show to
show. At a small concours, say 20-30 cars, there will probably only be four
or five E-types. With three classes and four cars and $28 a pop for the
first place plates, this makes the show barely a break-even proposition. Add
in the uncertainty about how many awards to buy and trying to estimate how
many last-minute entrants you might have, and a club could conceivably spend
more on awards than they make in registration fees, as Len Wheeler
indicated.

Remember, my proposal for trophies is based on preregistrations, so there is
a huge incentive to preregister. This will improve predictability
dramatically. If a half-dozen unregistered E-types show up at the
registration table concours morning, that creates a huge headache for the
organizers who have plotted, to the inch, how all the cars will be
positioned. Not much you can do about that, but at least the late entrants
won’t change the pool of trophies. If owners want the best chance to win
something, they’d better pre-register. When you think about it, that’s only
fair, considering the time and effort expended by volunteers to put the
concours together. Only the last-minute entries in small classes would
escape penalties for their procrastination, but I expect that most clubs
would put a disclaimer on their registration form that trophies are
guaranteed only for preregistrants. Late registrations my have to wait.

John’s point about non-S1 Es not showing because of the competition from the
S1s has some validity in a zero-sum game. But is it a zero-sum game? Before
I tackle that, the idea of cars going from concours to concours, sounds like
owners seeking NA status. Placings in individual shows would have no effect
on NA or regional standings. Only the scores matter and they would continue
to be recorded on a sub-class basis for the purpose of annual awards.
Agreed, it might make a difference at an individual show if you were the
fourth car in an undivided class, but to be honest, at the current time,
trophies are handed out like candy on Halloween. And like Halloween candy,
much of it collects dust and gets stale. Most members who enter shows
regularly have so many trophies that only the most significant are on
display. Add to that Pascal’s very valid comment that clubs don’t dare
personalize trophies for each year, because of the uncertainty, and you have
everyone handing out the exact same thing (usually pewter plates) year after
year. We were short first place plates last year and a club member donated
four of his old ones. If everyone gets one, how valuable can they be? I bet
you could stock up for a good-sized concours buying plates on eBay.

If you don’t view this as a zero-sum game, what other options might there
be. If someone in a club has an S2 that they don’t want to show against S1s,
they would be wise to contact other E-type-owning club members and beg them
to have their cars judged so the class would be split. Currently, depending
on the registration fees, a club generally does better if a car enters
display because they don’t have to award a trophy. I’m not saying that clubs
encourage that, but to some extent, you get what you incent. In my proposal,
you don’t have a situation where all or nearly all judged entrants are
guaranteed a trophy, so the club has more incentive to encourage people to
have their cars judged. I’d be quick to point out to our members, the more
cars entered, the more trophies awarded.

Which of the two scenarios hold more sway? We won’t know unless a plan like

mine is instituted. I do know that there is a huge pool of display cars at
most cars. I’d be interested in hearing from other clubs on the percentage,
but I’d estimate that our shows average 25-30% display. If we could get half
those members to have their cars judged at all the concours around the
country, there would be a huge jump in “participation.” (I think those
numbers are based only on judged cars, correct?)

NA-ly (anyone want to tell me what the adverb is for “North American” –
another reason why the habit is hard to break), Steve’s suggestion that we
give awards for all classes and sub-classes is the easiest to administer. I
think there should be a biennial review of sub-classes, and those that don’t
have a minimum number of NA or regional entrants would be removed until the
next review. New sub-classes would be created for sub-classes with NA or
regional entries above a set number.

If anyone has any questions about Steve’s or my proposal, check to see if
we’ve answered it in our previous e-mails. I know I probably went into too
much detail when I first explained mine, and this time – it’s almost as bad
a habit as using “national.” Speaking for myself, ask questions. I’d be
particularly interested in “what if” questions, because those will uncover
holes in my plan.

“Mark 1” Mark Stephenson (@Mark_Stephenson2)
1952 XK120 Roadster S673129
1958 Mark 1 / 1984 XJ6 / 1985,6,7 XJ6 VDP
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona (www.cableone.net/jcca)-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org
[mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]On Behalf Of Len Wheeler
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 10:39 AM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [concours] All these classes

Just who is going to buy all these trophies? When you have
classes,sub-classes,sub-sub-classes, you make it incumbant upon the
clubs to spend their whole annual budget on Concours trophies just to be
sure you have your bases covered. The other alternative is to announce
the winners at the awards ceremony with trophies to follow later as
needed.

Not all clubs have the sponsorship or financial wherewithall to host
this many classes.

Len Wheeler

Mark

I wholeheartedly agree with you, especially the pre registration benefit to the
clubs. Participants who do not pre register should understand that they run the
risk of not going home with a trophy that they have won. It would of course be
sent to them AFTER the club obtains the additional trophies needed. I have
quit showing my cars for judging for some of the reasons you outlined and
especially the professionally prepared “DRIVEN” cars. You are also correct
that in our small club, our expense for trophies far exceeds the registration
fees collected. We go in the hole each year just to put on the concours, but
there are avenues we need to follow to get some additional sponsorship so we can
at least break even.

Len Wheeler

Mark Stephenson wrote:> (bounced due to verbotten word - sub - admin)

Len, that’s the benefit to a small club of my proposal. You base classes and
trophies on the number of pre-registrations. Steve has presented the concept
of classes and sub-classes. In my proposal, when you consider all the
sub-classes, there are two more than we have now. I’d probably modify that
downward slightly.

The XJS split is one that I’m throwing out to see if a viable split is
possible. Because there is currently no accounting for engine types at
concours, there is no telling whether there would be enough cars for a
viable 6 cyl class.

Nevertheless, both Steve’s and my proposals give clubs latitude regarding
the number of classes they have and thus the number of trophies they award.
The numbered classes would have to be offered. In my proposal, that would be
a minimum of 9 championship and 7 driven. Currently there are 20 and 10. The
sub-classes are optional based on the number of preregistered entrants in
the class.

For example, there is one main class for the E-types, but three sub-classes.
The rule of thumb that I presented, which I haven’t suggested we hard-code
into law, but urge adoption by local clubs, is that if there are six or more
cars in a main class, that class should be divided into sub-classes if
possible.

I fully expect that the E-type class will be the one most commonly split.
So, if a club has 3 S1s, an S2 and an S3 preregistered for their concours,
the class would remain intact and First, Second, and Third would be given
for the whole class. If there were 2 S2s, instead of one, then the club
would award trophies for three S1s, and the two S2s plus the S3 would be in
competition. Add another S2 and you’d have to decide whether to split the 2s
and 3s. I wouldn’t, but I’d leave that up to the club. Another couple S3s,
and I’d split the 2s and 3s, but that’s just my opinion. At a large
concours, there might be 8 or 10 championship S1s. The club would have the
option of splitting the class if they wanted to. That split could be
3.8/4.2, open/closed, or by year. The decision to split and how would be
totally up to the club, but the goal would be to create two evenly divided
classes based on some innate difference in the cars. Production year would
not be a good criterion.

This brings me to John’s excellent point about competition from show to
show. At a small concours, say 20-30 cars, there will probably only be four
or five E-types. With three classes and four cars and $28 a pop for the
first place plates, this makes the show barely a break-even proposition. Add
in the uncertainty about how many awards to buy and trying to estimate how
many last-minute entrants you might have, and a club could conceivably spend
more on awards than they make in registration fees, as Len Wheeler
indicated.

Remember, my proposal for trophies is based on preregistrations, so there is
a huge incentive to preregister. This will improve predictability
dramatically. If a half-dozen unregistered E-types show up at the
registration table concours morning, that creates a huge headache for the
organizers who have plotted, to the inch, how all the cars will be
positioned. Not much you can do about that, but at least the late entrants
won’t change the pool of trophies. If owners want the best chance to win
something, they’d better pre-register. When you think about it, that’s only
fair, considering the time and effort expended by volunteers to put the
concours together. Only the last-minute entries in small classes would
escape penalties for their procrastination, but I expect that most clubs
would put a disclaimer on their registration form that trophies are
guaranteed only for preregistrants. Late registrations my have to wait.

John’s point about non-S1 Es not showing because of the competition from the
S1s has some validity in a zero-sum game. But is it a zero-sum game? Before
I tackle that, the idea of cars going from concours to concours, sounds like
owners seeking NA status. Placings in individual shows would have no effect
on NA or regional standings. Only the scores matter and they would continue
to be recorded on a sub-class basis for the purpose of annual awards.
Agreed, it might make a difference at an individual show if you were the
fourth car in an undivided class, but to be honest, at the current time,
trophies are handed out like candy on Halloween. And like Halloween candy,
much of it collects dust and gets stale. Most members who enter shows
regularly have so many trophies that only the most significant are on
display. Add to that Pascal’s very valid comment that clubs don’t dare
personalize trophies for each year, because of the uncertainty, and you have
everyone handing out the exact same thing (usually pewter plates) year after
year. We were short first place plates last year and a club member donated
four of his old ones. If everyone gets one, how valuable can they be? I bet
you could stock up for a good-sized concours buying plates on eBay.

If you don’t view this as a zero-sum game, what other options might there
be. If someone in a club has an S2 that they don’t want to show against S1s,
they would be wise to contact other E-type-owning club members and beg them
to have their cars judged so the class would be split. Currently, depending
on the registration fees, a club generally does better if a car enters
display because they don’t have to award a trophy. I’m not saying that clubs
encourage that, but to some extent, you get what you incent. In my proposal,
you don’t have a situation where all or nearly all judged entrants are
guaranteed a trophy, so the club has more incentive to encourage people to
have their cars judged. I’d be quick to point out to our members, the more
cars entered, the more trophies awarded.

Which of the two scenarios hold more sway? We won’t know unless a plan like

mine is instituted. I do know that there is a huge pool of display cars at
most cars. I’d be interested in hearing from other clubs on the percentage,
but I’d estimate that our shows average 25-30% display. If we could get half
those members to have their cars judged at all the concours around the
country, there would be a huge jump in “participation.” (I think those
numbers are based only on judged cars, correct?)

NA-ly (anyone want to tell me what the adverb is for “North American” –
another reason why the habit is hard to break), Steve’s suggestion that we
give awards for all classes and sub-classes is the easiest to administer. I
think there should be a biennial review of sub-classes, and those that don’t
have a minimum number of NA or regional entrants would be removed until the
next review. New sub-classes would be created for sub-classes with NA or
regional entries above a set number.

If anyone has any questions about Steve’s or my proposal, check to see if
we’ve answered it in our previous e-mails. I know I probably went into too
much detail when I first explained mine, and this time – it’s almost as bad
a habit as using “national.” Speaking for myself, ask questions. I’d be
particularly interested in “what if” questions, because those will uncover
holes in my plan.

“Mark 1” Mark Stephenson (marks@jaguarot.com)
1952 XK120 Roadster S673129
1958 Mark 1 / 1984 XJ6 / 1985,6,7 XJ6 VDP
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona (Internet Service Provider, TV & Phone | Sparklight)

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org
[mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]On Behalf Of Len Wheeler
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 10:39 AM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [concours] All these classes

Just who is going to buy all these trophies? When you have
classes,sub-classes,sub-sub-classes, you make it incumbant upon the
clubs to spend their whole annual budget on Concours trophies just to be
sure you have your bases covered. The other alternative is to announce
the winners at the awards ceremony with trophies to follow later as
needed.

Not all clubs have the sponsorship or financial wherewithall to host
this many classes.

Len Wheeler