[concours] Class Combinations in 2003

Based on what I’ve read about class consolidations here and in the JCNA
forum, I believe that near-term consolidation must be fairly limited.
Here’s my take on it, along with the rationale:

Champion:
Class 1: Pre-XK
Class 2a: XK120
Class 2b: XK140
Class 2c: XK150
Class 3a: Series 1 E-type
Class 3b: Series 1.5 and 2 E-type
Class 3c: Series 3 E-type
Class 4a: Large Saloons
Class 4b: Compact Saloons
Class 4c: Carbureted XJ Series cars
Class 4d: Fuel-injected XJ Series cars
Class 5: Post XJ Series 6 and 12 cylinder Saloons
Class 6: XJS
Class 7: V6 and V8 Modern cars
Class 8: Modified and Competition
Unjudged: Preservation

Driven:
Same as Champion EXCEPT:
XK120/140/150 collapsed into single Class D2
Series 1.5-3 collapsed into single Class D3b
Large and Compact Saloons in Class D4a
XJ Series in Class D4b
No Modified or Preservation classes

More about the numbering in the “rational class basis” thread.

The only REAL changes from today are the combination of most of today’s C10
and C11 into “Carbureted XJ,” the split of the XJ8 away from the current
C13, the consolidation of all current production into a single class until
show volume dictates a split, and the consolidation of “all ages” classes
C15 and C16. In Driven, the Similar (except for engine) Series 2 and 3
E-types are combined, and the same late-model changes as Champion take
place.

Why?
In the XJ consolidation, the split in Champion is made along
engine-compartment technology grounds. Trying to judge a 1992 EFI V12
against a 1969 XK engine is folly for both the competitors and the judges.

Similar rationale is followed in the revised “new XJ” split.

The rationale for the 15/16 combo is that both involve rarely seen and
often one-off models of ages ranging from brand new to pre-war and both use
the same judging criteria.

In Driven, once you cover up the engine compartment, a Series 2 and a
Series 3 E-type are not all that much different. The orphans are the S1.5
which might be better better judged with the S1 cars EXCEPT that interior
errors are the most common authenticity problems (other than tires/wheels)
and in that way they are more like the S2 cars.

In all cases, the consolidated classes are smaller and the consolidations
are made on the basis of similar judging/showing problems. Combining the S1
XJ with the S3 XJ does NOT use that guideline in Champion - take a look at
a S1 XJ6 compared with a Mark X and any S3 and I’m sure you’ll agree. The
S2 cars are halfway houses.
-Steve A.
'67 E Type Coupe
'76 XJ6C
'91 XJ40

Steve,

Steve, I think we are getting close to something that will be really
workable. (I don’t know if anyone else thinks so.)

Let me run with your idea of the chief judge having the ability to split
classes before the concours. I refer you to an idea I had for our Saloons in
the Old West Concours. If you go to
www.cableone.net/jcca/concours/awards.htm, you’ll see that I proposed
something very similar. I actually first conceived of the idea a couple
years ago at the first Saloons concours, when I was hoping to draw quite a
few saloons, possibly overloading some classes. It hasn’t happened yet.
AFAIK, clubs could do this now on their own if they wanted to.

With that in mind, Steve, we could take the structure you have devised, with
main classes designated by number and sub-classes designated by letter.
Clubs would have to offer each numbered class at a minimum. Then, if Chief
Judges at larger concours have many entrants in one or more main, numbered
classes, they can split that class into the lettered sub-classes. If a
sub-class is exceptionally large, there would be nothing that would preclude
a club from further subdivisions. For example, if there was a club that was
flooded with Series 1 E-types, say a dozen pre-registered, even though there
is no official sub-category split for open and closed, there is no reason
why that club couldn’t create the split for their awards at their show. Or,
they could split along 3.8L and 4.2L lines. I’d leave it up to them. If they
had only three fifties and sixties saloons, they’d keep 4a and b together as
a single Class 4 for local awards.

I’d propose that rather than basing splits on historical data, that it be
based it on pre-registrations. I’m always looking for things to make the
concours organizers’ lives easier and pre-registration is one of those
things. Therefore, if we can offer one more carrot for people to
pre-register, they have more predictability.

Then the only question, nationally, is whether to establish national awards
for each class (on the stingy end), or, each sub-class (on the generous
end), or, do something in between, for example, if there were more than,
say, ten cars eligible for awards in a sub-class, the winners of that
sub-class would earn their own national awards and the remainder of the main
class would compete for national awards. (Just throwing that out.)

There are a number of people who like the Preservation Class, and with some
justification. There are insoluble problems with the class which have been
discussed at length, but there are people who own well-preserved, original
cars who won’t stand a chance against a frame off restoration. I think they
need to be recognized.

Therefore I’d set it up like this:

Champion:
Class 1: Pre-XK
Class 2a: XK120
Class 2b: XK140
Class 2c: XK150
Class 3a: Series 1 E-type
Class 3b: Series 1.5 and 2 E-type
Class 3c: Series 3 E-type
Class 4a: Large Saloons
Class 4b: Compact Saloons
Class 5a: Carbureted XJ Series cars
Class 5b: Fuel-injected XJ Series cars
Class 6a: XJS V12
Class 6b: XJS 6 cyl
Class 7a: Post XJ Series 6 and 12 cylinder Saloons
Class 7b: V6 and V8 Modern cars
Class 8: Modified and Competition
Class 9: Preservation

Other than no modified/competition or preservation classes in driven, I’d
keep the identical structure because the local Chief Judge can combine or
split based on the number of pre-registrations. I’d have to rethink that,
though, if national prizes are awarded to all sub-classes.

How would this work in real life? A small club with a small concours could
have as few as 16 classes. At a Challenge Championship, there could be as
many as 32, however, I would think that at a large show, fairness would
dictate that a larger number be applied before splitting classes, to keep
the competition equal across classes. As I said on the web site, this will
“assuage the frustration some entrants feel when they work like the devil to
detail their cars, only to find they’re up against a dozen other cars in the
same class. At the same time, others, who don’t put in nearly the work, win
a trophy by default because there are only three cars in their classes.”

Being an example kind of guy, I’ll throw out some numbers for consideration.
If a small concours (<60 pre-registrations) has six or more pre-registered
cars one main class, or if a larger concours has 10% or more of the cars
pre-registered in one class, the chief judge should split that class.

Does that make sense? Any questions?

“Mark 1” Mark Stephenson (@Mark_Stephenson2)
1952 XK120 Roadster S673129
1958 Mark 1 / 1984 XJ6 / 1985,6,7 XJ6 VDP
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona (www.cableone.net/jcca)-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org
[mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]On Behalf Of Steve Averill
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 8:30 PM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [concours] Class Combinations in 2003

Based on what I’ve read about class consolidations here and in the JCNA
forum, I believe that near-term consolidation must be fairly limited.
Here’s my take on it, along with the rationale:

Champion:
Class 1: Pre-XK
Class 2a: XK120
Class 2b: XK140
Class 2c: XK150
Class 3a: Series 1 E-type
Class 3b: Series 1.5 and 2 E-type
Class 3c: Series 3 E-type
Class 4a: Large Saloons
Class 4b: Compact Saloons
Class 4c: Carbureted XJ Series cars
Class 4d: Fuel-injected XJ Series cars
Class 5: Post XJ Series 6 and 12 cylinder Saloons
Class 6: XJS
Class 7: V6 and V8 Modern cars
Class 8: Modified and Competition
Unjudged: Preservation

Driven:
Same as Champion EXCEPT:
XK120/140/150 collapsed into single Class D2
Series 1.5-3 collapsed into single Class D3b
Large and Compact Saloons in Class D4a
XJ Series in Class D4b
No Modified or Preservation classes

First, to clarify, since it appears some were confused - the basic a, b, c
would be classes with their own North American awards just as Class 1A and
1B do today. Thus, the proposal (without Preservation) contained 15 classes
as originally stated. The numbering facilitated possible future
consolidations in small events and made the numbering more consistent
between Driven and Champion. It represented only consolidation in smaller
classes and some realignment.

Having said that, your tweak of it looks fine to me EXCEPT that I would
make carbureted XJ Series cars “Class 4c” which is a minor revision that
recognizes that they are, in many ways, more akin to the earlier carbureted
cars than the technologically different EFI cars. I would also run 6a and
6b as a “test” to see how the counts fall into the split.

There ARE people that like Preservation - I personally favor the idea of
SOME sort of Preservation Class. I just don’t happen to think it should be
a competitive class - directly contrary to the Preservation concept. As a
competitive class, it becomes a detailing contest combined with “hide and
seek” between the entrants and judges. Preservation OUGHT (in my mind) to
be a JOINT search for absolute authenticity and one goal should be to draw
in seedy but original cars that are currently in “display” class.

If you’ve got Class 6a, why not put the S3 XJ12 in it as well? Then we’re
on our way to the distinctly different “V12” class. Any V12 is at a
disadvantage against any six in Champion. I don’t think we know how the
Class 6 would split (6 vs 12) which is why I didn’t propose that split. It
is, however, a VERY logical one and one more distinctive than age of the
XJS. I think it would be wonderful if the V12 were one day recognized as a
unique animal by JCNA.
-Steve A.
'67 E Type Coupe
'76 XJ6C
'91 XJ40-------

Mark Stephenson wrote:

Then the only question, nationally, is whether to establish national awards
for each class (on the stingy end), or, each sub-class (on the generous
end), or, do something in between, for example, if there were more than,
say, ten cars eligible for awards in a sub-class, the winners of that
sub-class would earn their own national awards and the remainder of the main
class would compete for national awards. (Just throwing that out.)

There are a number of people who like the Preservation Class, and with some
justification. There are insoluble problems with the class which have been
discussed at length, but there are people who own well-preserved, original
cars who won’t stand a chance against a frame off restoration. I think they
need to be recognized.

Therefore I’d set it up like this:

Champion:
Class 1: Pre-XK
Class 2a: XK120
Class 2b: XK140
Class 2c: XK150
Class 3a: Series 1 E-type
Class 3b: Series 1.5 and 2 E-type
Class 3c: Series 3 E-type
Class 4a: Large Saloons
Class 4b: Compact Saloons
Class 5a: Carbureted XJ Series cars
Class 5b: Fuel-injected XJ Series cars
Class 6a: XJS V12
Class 6b: XJS 6 cyl
Class 7a: Post XJ Series 6 and 12 cylinder Saloons
Class 7b: V6 and V8 Modern cars
Class 8: Modified and Competition
Class 9: Preservation

Ah, I see your point on preservation. What I think you are leaning toward is
not "unjudged? as you indicated in your original concours list, but perhaps
a completely different judging scheme, where perhaps cleanliness and
authenticity is scored, but not condition. A cracking paint job, if
original, would not be a deduction. Or how about this: in Preservation
Class, deductions for condition would be divided by ten (to throw out a
number), before being deducted. That way, if there were two perfectly
original cars, the best maintained one would still have an advantage, and if
someone brought an original car, but it was destroyed by the ravages of
time, there would still be some deductions for condition.

I have the carbed XJs separate from the FI XJs. There are normally a large
number of S3 XJs, so I think that after the E-types, that would be the next
class to split. So, other than the smallest concours, they would be in their
own class. The engine is different, but I think you are over-emphasizing the
engine in this case. It’s only a third of the judging. For the same reason
that Jag-Lovers has the XJ6es S1-3 all “lumped” together, I think JCNA
should keep it that way, too. 6 vs. V12 is quite a detailing difference, but
carbed vs. FI I don’t think puts anyone at a disadvantage. If we take your
suggestion that awards be given for all the subdivisions, then they will be
on their own for NA awards, too.

The difference between your proposal and mine is mainly syntactic. I’m going
by the look and designation of the car and you are going by engine
configuration. In practice, it will only make a difference at concours that
have six or fewer championship 1968-1987 XJs. I’d bet that would be less
than ten. When there are that few XJs, chances are there will be only one,
occasionally two, pre-FI XJs.

The only reason I did a XJS V12 and 6 is that it is a large class. A six
doesn’t necessarily have an advantage, but it sure takes a lot less work to
prepare for a show. We’d really have to look at the distribution of cars at
shows over the year. If there are two V12s per concours and one 6, then the
split would be justified. If there’s fewer 6es than that, I would argue
against it. It does give clubs the option, though.

As far as moving the S3 XJ12 in with the V12 XJS, I can see the logic both
ways, although I lean the other way. For one thing, Championship wouldn’t
match Driven class, which would be very confusing. Secondly, to take a car
that looks just like another on the outside and have it in a different class
would seem capricious and be confusing to the less knowledgeable or future
Jaguar enthusiast. It’s more significant to those of you up on the northern
border; down here, S3 V12s are rare birds.

Are we ready to formally present this to Dick? :slight_smile:

“Mark 1” Mark Stephenson (@Mark_Stephenson2)
1952 XK120 Roadster S673129
1958 Mark 1 / 1984 XJ6 / 1985,6,7 XJ6 VDP
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona (www.cableone.net/jcca)-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org
[mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]On Behalf Of Steve Averill
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 6:25 PM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Cc: @Mark_Stephenson2
Subject: RE: [concours] Class Combinations in 2003

First, to clarify, since it appears some were confused - the basic a, b, c
would be classes with their own North American awards just as Class 1A and
1B do today. Thus, the proposal (without Preservation) contained 15 classes
as originally stated. The numbering facilitated possible future
consolidations in small events and made the numbering more consistent
between Driven and Champion. It represented only consolidation in smaller
classes and some realignment.

Having said that, your tweak of it looks fine to me EXCEPT that I would
make carbureted XJ Series cars “Class 4c” which is a minor revision that
recognizes that they are, in many ways, more akin to the earlier carbureted
cars than the technologically different EFI cars. I would also run 6a and
6b as a “test” to see how the counts fall into the split.

There ARE people that like Preservation - I personally favor the idea of
SOME sort of Preservation Class. I just don’t happen to think it should be
a competitive class - directly contrary to the Preservation concept. As a
competitive class, it becomes a detailing contest combined with “hide and
seek” between the entrants and judges. Preservation OUGHT (in my mind) to
be a JOINT search for absolute authenticity and one goal should be to draw
in seedy but original cars that are currently in “display” class.

If you’ve got Class 6a, why not put the S3 XJ12 in it as well? Then we’re
on our way to the distinctly different “V12” class. Any V12 is at a
disadvantage against any six in Champion. I don’t think we know how the
Class 6 would split (6 vs 12) which is why I didn’t propose that split. It
is, however, a VERY logical one and one more distinctive than age of the
XJS. I think it would be wonderful if the V12 were one day recognized as a
unique animal by JCNA.
-Steve A.
'67 E Type Coupe
'76 XJ6C
'91 XJ40