[concours] Classes

Does anyone out there think that maybe there is a need to update or expand
some classes. My particular concern is with classes C13 and D7. These are
for XJ sedans from 1988 to 2002. How can a car 13 years old be expected to
compete with one right off the show room floor. There are classes that break
the other body styles down why can’t there be class for the XJ40 style and
another for the X300 style. I have a 1992 XJ6 that I work very hard to keep
up and maintain but I am completely at the mercy of someone who shows up
with one they just bought last weekend. This doesn’t seem fair. C13 and D7
classes should be for the XJ40, '88-'94 and a new class for the newer body
style. Has anybody else had these thoughts or am I out of line on this?

I agree, has this been brought up at an AGM in the past ?

Pascal----- Original Message -----
From: “Jim Baker” jbaker@netwalk.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 9:12 PM
Subject: [concours] Classes

Does anyone out there think that maybe there is a need to update or expand
some classes. My particular concern is with classes C13 and D7. These are
for XJ sedans from 1988 to 2002. How can a car 13 years old be expected to
compete with one right off the show room floor. There are classes that
break
the other body styles down why can’t there be class for the XJ40 style and
another for the X300 style. I have a 1992 XJ6 that I work very hard to
keep
up and maintain but I am completely at the mercy of someone who shows up
with one they just bought last weekend. This doesn’t seem fair. C13 and D7
classes should be for the XJ40, '88-'94 and a new class for the newer
body
style. Has anybody else had these thoughts or am I out of line on this?

Jim and Pascal,
There is general resistance to adding more car classes to what is
already considered to be an excessive number. I made a proposal at this
year’s AGM to require that cars be at least 10 (or some lesser number)
years old before they could be shown in JCNA’s Champion Division.

The idea was defeated by a large group who thought such a restriction
would discourage owners of new cars from ever being interested in JCNA
concours activity and therefore penalize membership.

Early XJS owner/exhibitors in particular have been suffering for years
as that model was in production for over 20 years and yet there’s only
one JCNA class for them. It has been almost impossible for the older
XJS’s to compete with the newer ones particularly since they have not
been a popular model to restore.

If you have any ideas on how to address the problem without adding more
classes, I would be pleased to hear them. The newly formed JCNA Judges’
Committee may finally tackle the unpopular task of combining some early
XJ classes in which recent competition has been limited; whether or not
that would allow splitting the later XJ classes is unknown.

Dick Cavicke
JCNA SW Region Co-Director

Dick,

I have a number of thoughts on classes and judging. Problem is, though,
every time I think about them…much less share them…it always sounds
like sour grapes.

Here’s a few wild ideas, though, from the perspective of a newbie…just
thinking out loud, really. I won’t pretend that I’ve given any a great deal
of thought…but that isn’t always a bad thing.

All cars less than, let’s say, 6 years old are grouped in one class. Call
it the “New Jaguar” class. This would be neither Championship nor Driven
class. It’s a separate class. This would eliminate, incidentally, the new
S-type class and the inevitable X-type class…for the time being.

Combine Competition and Special Interest
Combine XK120-40-50
Combine 1A and 1B
Combine 5 and 6 so that E-types are simply either 6 or 12 cylinder
Combine 10 and 11
Divide the 20-year XJ-S production in half

Perhaps it would be a good idea to look at the average number of entrants
per class and then decide on rationalizations. For example, consider XJ
Saloons. Using arbitrary numbers, suppose in 2001 there were 10 competitors
in C10 (Series I), 12 competitors in C11 (Series II) but 30 competitors in
C12 (Series III). If a reduction in classes were to be made then it would
make sense to combine 10 and 11, leaving the large class 12 to stand alone.
The same method could be used in any cases where similar cars are broken
down into individual classes.

As I said, these are just some off-the cuff ideas. I’m sure there are many
considerations I have not thought of, and I’m equally sure that such ideas
would not set well with many of the members.

Doug Dwyer
Longview, Washington USA----- Original Message -----
From: F8driver@pacbell.net

Jim and Pascal,
There is general resistance to adding more car classes to what is
already considered to be an excessive number. I made a proposal at this
year’s AGM to require that cars be at least 10 (or some lesser number)
years old before they could be shown in JCNA’s Champion Division.

The idea was defeated by a large group who thought such a restriction
would discourage owners of new cars from ever being interested in JCNA
concours activity and therefore penalize membership.

Early XJS owner/exhibitors in particular have been suffering for years
as that model was in production for over 20 years and yet there’s only
one JCNA class for them. It has been almost impossible for the older
XJS’s to compete with the newer ones particularly since they have not
been a popular model to restore.

If you have any ideas on how to address the problem without adding more
classes, I would be pleased to hear them. The newly formed JCNA Judges’
Committee may finally tackle the unpopular task of combining some early
XJ classes in which recent competition has been limited; whether or not
that would allow splitting the later XJ classes is unknown.

I don’t really see the problem to adding more classes if it makes for more
equitable judging. As far as requiring certain age on the car discouraging
new owners, what about discouraging owners of older cars who have taken
great pains to keep the cars up or restored them and kept up the tradition
of jaguar. As a 26 year member of JCNA, I love the concours and look forward
to them, have chaired many of our clubs’ events, but trying to maintain and
keep up an older car only to shot down by someone who just has to run it
through the carwash is a bit discouraging. There has to be some solution or
the people with the older cars will quit coming to the concours and it will
start to look like a Jag Dealers used car lot with only late models seen.
Jim

The problem you run into, (and I’m responding to everyone here) is that
there are so many classes, that there are not losers. Right now there are 30
classes, which means you could theoretically have a concours and have ninety
entrants, and all would go home with a prize. There are a few concours in
the major metropolitan areas that have ninety-plus judged cars, but not a
lot. We had fifty cars in Phoenix last year and probably ten of those were
in display. Everyone won something.

If everyone’s a winner, then it sort of diminishes the value of winning, in
my opinion. Winning a category when you’re the only car is also a bit of a
hollow victory. On the flip side of the coin, it is frustrating for entrants
who have worked their fingers to the bone prepping a car, only to find half
a dozen cars in their class, and they finish out of the running, when
another entrant who may have just done a cursory wash and vacuum, wins
another class because there was no competition.

A few years ago, I made a suggestion (to my other regional director) similar
to Doug’s. Considering the above, I felt that there should be a set number
of categories, maybe 25 total. Based on the turnout for each of the
categories in each concours across the country in the previous year,
categories would be reassessed for the next. The ones with low turnout would
be combined with similar categories. Ones with high turnout would be split.
There are details and thresholds which would have to be worked out, but I
don’t think it would be that difficult to do on an annual basis.

In a roundabout way, this would encourage participation by people who really
campaign their cars and don’t want to see their category combined. The more
shows at which their car is judged, the less chance of that happening.

I hadn’t though of the “New Jaguar” category, championship and driven.
That’s a good idea. (What do you think, Dick?)

“Mark 1” Mark Stephenson
1952 XK120 Roadster S673129
1958 Mark 1 / 1984 XJ6 / 1985,6,7 XJ6 VDP
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona (www.cableone.net/jcca)
Please note new e-mail: @Mark_Stephenson2-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org
[mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]On Behalf Of Jim Baker
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 12:11 AM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [concours] Classes

I don’t really see the problem to adding more classes if it makes for more
equitable judging. As far as requiring certain age on the car discouraging
new owners, what about discouraging owners of older cars who have taken
great pains to keep the cars up or restored them and kept up the tradition
of jaguar. As a 26 year member of JCNA, I love the concours and look forward
to them, have chaired many of our clubs’ events, but trying to maintain and
keep up an older car only to shot down by someone who just has to run it
through the carwash is a bit discouraging. There has to be some solution or
the people with the older cars will quit coming to the concours and it will
start to look like a Jag Dealers used car lot with only late models seen.
Jim

In the 28 concours our club has put on to date we don’t find that the
entrants are spread out evenly among the classes to allow everyone to be a
winner. Out of 50+ cars we had 12 E-Types( 3 classes), 11 Series I, II,
III(3 classes), 6 XJSs, ( 1 class). Most of these people didn’t receive a
JCNA trophy but still had fun anyways. What we don’t see is the owners of
the newer cars supporting the “concours circuit”, by that I mean going to
shows in other cities or areas to compete for national points. Those of us
with older cars who try to support other clubs’ concours and compete for
national are hoping that the guy with the brand new car, who only goes to
one event a year, doesn’t show up. What is the challenge or the satisfaction
of restoring or keeping an older car to factory standards when you are
competing against cars that just left the factory quite recently? I don’t
see the problem to adding more classes to even out the judging when half the
classes now have one, if any, entrants.
Jim

At our recent concours in St. Louis, we were trying to place an X-Type. The
consensus was that it goes in the same class as the S-Types. I heard a rumor
at Franklin this summer that the C10, C11, and C12 (series I, II, and III XJ
saloons and coupes) might be combined in the future. I don’t know if there
is any truth to it but it would certainly change the dynamic. Even the
newest ser III cars are getting to be old enough that only restorations and
the rare original car, driven by the little old lady to church (or Gregory)
are going to be competitive in the future anyway. I think JCNA has to be
ready to adapt the setup to allow for older cars to be lumped more together
and newer cars to be separated to allow for fairness. Like Dick said, the
XJS guys really have a tough time of it.
Just my ramblings…
John Testrake
president, Jaguar Assoc. of Greater St. Louis

In a message dated 10/9/01 11:25:18 PM Central Daylight Time,
F8driver@pacbell.net writes:> Jim and Pascal,

There is general resistance to adding more car classes to what is
already considered to be an excessive number. I made a proposal at this
year’s AGM to require that cars be at least 10 (or some lesser number)
years old before they could be shown in JCNA’s Champion Division.

The idea was defeated by a large group who thought such a restriction
would discourage owners of new cars from ever being interested in JCNA
concours activity and therefore penalize membership.

Early XJS owner/exhibitors in particular have been suffering for years
as that model was in production for over 20 years and yet there’s only
one JCNA class for them. It has been almost impossible for the older
XJS’s to compete with the newer ones particularly since they have not
been a popular model to restore.

If you have any ideas on how to address the problem without adding more
classes, I would be pleased to hear them. The newly formed JCNA Judges’
Committee may finally tackle the unpopular task of combining some early
XJ classes in which recent competition has been limited; whether or not
that would allow splitting the later XJ classes is unknown.

Dick Cavicke
JCNA SW Region Co-Director

Good theory, but results don’t bear it out. Take a look at the JCNA
standings and you’ll notice that both Class C13 and D7 have been won by
1990 or 1991 models in 1999 and 2000. In 2001, C13 is headed up by a 1991
and D7 is led by a 1990, trailed by a 1992.

Despite Dick Cavicke’s theory, the XJS Class is similar. In 2001, a 1990
heads up Champion and a 1989 has the highest total (with 2 or more shows)
in Driven.

What’s more, despite their disparity in ages, Class D6 (XJ Series Driven)
was won by Series 2 cars in 1999 and 2000. In 1999, the 1976 XJ6C beat a
number of cars 10 years newer than it.

Once the cars are past warranty, it seems that age is little factor in
their placing in JCNA concours. Many other factors ARE important
(principally what State of the US they’re shown in), but it seems that two
or three years is enough to pick up stone chips and dirt. Authenticity is
rarely a major issue with C13 or D7. It can be an issue in D6 but JCNA
judges generally are not knowledgable enough about the cars to pick up
authenticity problems there. Same goes for the XJS.
-Steve A.
'67 E Type Coupe
'76 XJ6C
'91 XJ40----------------

Jim Baker wrote:

Does anyone out there think that maybe there is a need to update or expand
some classes. My particular concern is with classes C13 and D7. These are
for XJ sedans from 1988 to 2002. How can a car 13 years old be expected to
compete with one right off the show room floor. There are classes that break
the other body styles down why can’t there be class for the XJ40 style and
another for the X300 style. I have a 1992 XJ6 that I work very hard to keep
up and maintain but I am completely at the mercy of someone who shows up
with one they just bought last weekend. This doesn’t seem fair. C13 and D7
classes should be for the XJ40, '88-'94 and a new class for the newer body
style. Has anybody else had these thoughts or am I out of line on this?

One more thing on old vs new car at concours – If the new cars always won,
why does my XJ6C regularly kick the behinds of X300 and XJ8 cars at ABFM
shows? You might say “but that is a ‘peoples choice’ and isn’t the same.”
Well, that may be so, but JCNA judges are human just like those that vote
at the ABFM shows and the same factors act, despite the ostensibly
scientific JCNA score sheet.

How else could I explain my own car scoring HIGHER in Class C18 than in
Class C11? Basically, the judges cut the older cars a little extra slack
that may outweigh any disadvantages that they may have. I don’t think they
do it consciously, but they do it.

Bottom line - older cars really ARE better! And no, I’m not ready to
replace human JCNA judges with computer-aided photogrammetric scan judging
of the cars. I’m really pleased that the human element of judging is
important, though I sometimes find it irritating when it operates against
me.
-Steve A.
'67 E Type Coupe
'76 XJ6C
'91 XJ40

X-types go in the same class as S-types, that was voted at the AGM

I agree with number of classes, from a club point of view, it also means we
must prepare a larger number of trophies, many unused.

if there is a need for new classes, like to differentiates the XJ40 from the
X300/308, then it is true that some other classes should be combined, based
on similarities and number of entries.

would be a good idea to discuss this on the JCNA issue forum instead of on
this list not to bore our non North American friends.

Pascal----- Original Message -----
From: Jtestrake@aol.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: [concours] Classes

At our recent concours in St. Louis, we were trying to place an X-Type.
The
consensus was that it goes in the same class as the S-Types. I heard a
rumor
at Franklin this summer that the C10, C11, and C12 (series I, II, and III
XJ
saloons and coupes) might be combined in the future. I don’t know if
there
is any truth to it but it would certainly change the dynamic. Even the
newest ser III cars are getting to be old enough that only restorations
and
the rare original car, driven by the little old lady to church (or
Gregory)
are going to be competitive in the future anyway. I think JCNA has to be
ready to adapt the setup to allow for older cars to be lumped more
together
and newer cars to be separated to allow for fairness. Like Dick said, the
XJS guys really have a tough time of it.
Just my ramblings…
John Testrake
president, Jaguar Assoc. of Greater St. Louis

I’m really pleased that the human element of judging is
important, though I sometimes find it irritating when it operates against
me.
-Steve A.

** I think you’ve just summed it up about as well as anyone ever could,
Steve.

Bob

As long as this issue is on the table I would like to add that there is a
similar if not more appropriate issue with XJS cars. Currently all XJS
models from 1974 to 1996 are in a single class. Since this is the longest
model run in Jaguar history I would think that all the arguments offered by
Mr. Baker would apply even more strongly in this situation. In addition,
any rebuttal would have to pass the smell test of why there are 3 classes
for E-Types and only one for XJS’s since there are many more XJS cars
available and there are also 3 distinct series of cars ( I think the breaks
in design were 74-82, 83-92, 93-96 but that may not be exactly right for the
transition between the first and second series). Last weekend at the St.
Louis Concours ( an outstanding weekend and show, my compliments to all who
were responsible) the top 4 cars in class C-14 were separated by only 0.24
points 99.71 to 99.95 and it appeared that the scores were justified by
some really nice cars. Given this level of competition I would believe
that some older car owners are not too excited about doing the work
necessary to try and bring older cars to a respectable level and still have
no chance.

The last point I would make is that XJS cars are rapidly becoming the
largest class at many events, they have become affordable for people who
want to restore a car to get into with some hope of obtaining parts etc. the
last thing JCNA should do is discourage this trend and not afford these
owners the same opportunities that E-Type owners have enjoyed for years.

I understand that this issue was brought up and a previous AGM but was
defeated ( E-Types must have a really good lobby) but it is time to
reconsider this idea. I would add that I have no objection to Jim’s points
and would support splitting the cars he discusses into separate classes
also , but I do believe that the argument for changing the XJS classes is
the most compelling.-----Original Message-----
From: Pascal Gademer [mailto:pascal@pam-trading.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 9:32 PM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [concours] Classes

I agree, has this been brought up at an AGM in the past ?

Pascal

----- Original Message -----
From: “Jim Baker” jbaker@netwalk.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 9:12 PM
Subject: [concours] Classes

Does anyone out there think that maybe there is a need to update or expand
some classes. My particular concern is with classes C13 and D7. These are
for XJ sedans from 1988 to 2002. How can a car 13 years old be expected to
compete with one right off the show room floor. There are classes that
break
the other body styles down why can’t there be class for the XJ40 style and
another for the X300 style. I have a 1992 XJ6 that I work very hard to
keep
up and maintain but I am completely at the mercy of someone who shows up
with one they just bought last weekend. This doesn’t seem fair. C13 and D7
classes should be for the XJ40, '88-'94 and a new class for the n
body
style. Has anybody else had these thoughts or am I out of line on this?
6

In a message dated 10/10/01 6:25:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
pascal@pam-trading.com writes:

would be a good idea to discuss this on the JCNA issue forum instead of on
this list not to bore our non North American friends.

I disagree. Personally I believe for somebody like me that has intentions of
joining in the fun of showing a car next year, it is very useful to become
prematurely knowledgeable about the process and the obstacles I may
encounter. I am not aware of any other way for a beginner to learn, other
than when you guys openly discuss it on this list.
Regards Bob.

a few numbers… currently, in the JCNA standings, there are

Champion classes :

29 E-types, most 6 cyl
13 XJS, oldest one being 1987.
zero XK150s
5 XK120
2 XK140
10 XJ6 ( 2 XJ6 I 2 XJ6 II 6 XJ6 III )
5 XJ40/X300

It’s pretty similar in Driven with :

16 E-types
8 XJS
1 XK 120
7 XJ6 ( all series )
3 XJ40/X300

Those standings ( updated last night btw ) currently include all entrants
with at least 2 shows. 28 events included (6 still missing) so it is a
fairly representative sampling.

The lack of early XJS is either a sign that they don’t enter knowing they
don’t stand a chance, or they are too few around. Doesn’t seem to me that
splitting the class would accomplish much. On the other grouping the XKs,
which will probably be a very unpopular proposal, would make sense.

Pascal

PS
I posted a copy of this on the JCNA issues forum at
http://www.jcna.com/forums/

don’t get me wrong, the JCNA issues is a public forum. it was just a
suggestion as this is a regional issue. If non North American listers don’t
mind this beeing discussed, that’s fine with me !

Pascal----- Original Message -----
From: Peddlarbob@aol.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: [concours] Classes

In a message dated 10/10/01 6:25:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
@Pascal_Gademer writes:

would be a good idea to discuss this on the JCNA issue forum instead of
on
this list not to bore our non North American friends.

I disagree. Personally I believe for somebody like me that has intentions
of
joining in the fun of showing a car next year, it is very useful to become
prematurely knowledgeable about the process and the obstacles I may
encounter. I am not aware of any other way for a beginner to learn, other
than when you guys openly discuss it on this list.
Regards Bob.

Pascal, that’s not until next year. For the remainder of this year, the
X-type has no home. That’s because no changes can be made to the concours
rules during the season. Since the X-type wasn’t available to be judged, and
no provision was made for it last year, it can not be added until next year.
This year, it’s display only for the X-types.

Interesting comments, Steve, but coupled with the comments about the people
not campaigning the newer cars, what you have is a situation where the top
cars annually, are not the newer cars, but the winners at the individual
shows are.

Also, in my earlier comments, I wasn’t implying that the cars are evenly
spread out across the divisions. I was saying that there are so many
divisions that if they were evenly spread, you could have 90 cars and 90
trophies awarded. We had fifty cars and about forty judged. There were a lot
of E-types, but there are a lot of E-type categories, too. You could have 18
E-types and all could win awards. That is not out of line because there are
so many entered. We had three driven XKs last year, and maybe three 120s in
championship; fewer 140s and 150s. there were four driven XJ6es and three
championship.

The fourth driven car won the best prepared award – an award we give for
the car will the smallest cleanliness deduction that didn’t win another
prize. I conceived of that as being an award for cars entered in
Championship, but all the Championship cars won trophies, and all the Driven
cars did, too, except for this one, so it received the award by default.

Now consider 1A and 1B. In the eleven years I’ve been a member, we have had
at most two cars for the two classes, combined. I have to beg to get people
for classes 8 and 9, and we’re the Saloons in the Old West. Likewise with
C10 and 11, S1 & 2 XJs. Competition and special interest could be lumped
into a modified class as Doug suggested, and maybe once in the last five
years would one of those entrants gone home empty handed.

One of the biggest problems with the ever-expanding number of classes is a
logistical one for the clubs. How many trophies do you buy? You can hand out
the generic JCNA plates, but then the individual ones have no significance.
In fact, last year, we were short a few and we had one of the members donate
some of his collection from over the years and we ordered replacement plates
for him. If you engrave the plates or go with something more individual, you
have only a vague guess at how many people will eventually show up. If you
make too many, they’re garbage; if you make too few, some people aren’t
rewarded at the banquet, you have to keep a list, of who, order more
trophies, pick them up, and ship them out or carry them around with you
until the winners show up at the next club event. The point is that all the
solutions require a lot of effort and expense after the fact. That and other
similar concours planning difficulties would be eased with fewer classes.

Just to be clear, I’m not asking for a mass reduction in the number of
classes, just the elimination of the ones that are rarely if ever have a
full complement of cars (i.e. 3).

If you chart the number of concours entries over the last decade, you’ll
find the number of judged entries has remained relatively constant. I think
if you look at entries per concours, that lack of trend is even more
evident, yet we’ve added at least five classes (as many as seven or eight?)
over that period of time.

I hate to compare it to Outcome-Based Education, but when everyone wins…
Well, you know.

If we adjust classes annually based on the total number of entrants in all
the JCNA concours, then all the complaints about some classes being too
broad and others being under-utilized would be answered on an annual basis.

“Mark 1” Mark Stephenson
1952 XK120 Roadster S673129
1958 Mark 1 / 1984 XJ6 / 1985,6,7 XJ6 VDP
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona (www.cableone.net/jcca)
Please note new e-mail: @Mark_Stephenson2-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org
[mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]On Behalf Of Pascal Gademer
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 6:23 AM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [concours] Classes

X-types go in the same class as S-types, that was voted at the AGM

Now keep in mind I am a newbie so be gentle with your replies please, I have
a thin skin. In regard to trophies being given out. Are they not a sort of
reward for the amount of work an individual goes to get his car prepared for
a show? Am I wrong with my assumption that the trophies being awarded are
governed by the requirement to at least obtain a minimum score for your car.
Secondly Where could I obtain information to educate myself about the
different classes. You are all talking about classes I am finding it totally
confusing.
Regards Bob.

got to www.jcna.com and click on Library for rules, classes, etc… or
Standings for current national standings and indidual event results

I forgot what the minimum scores for 1st and 2nd are but I think they are
very low and rarely a factor.

Pascal----- Original Message -----
From: Peddlarbob@aol.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: [concours] Classes

Now keep in mind I am a newbie so be gentle with your replies please, I
have
a thin skin. In regard to trophies being given out. Are they not a sort
of
reward for the amount of work an individual goes to get his car prepared
for
a show? Am I wrong with my assumption that the trophies being awarded are
governed by the requirement to at least obtain a minimum score for your
car.
Secondly Where could I obtain information to educate myself about the
different classes. You are all talking about classes I am finding it
totally
confusing.
Regards Bob.

Personally I got sick and tired of the professionally prepared cars that
were trailer queens and called driven. The only driving they got was on
and off the trailer. Now I put my cars in Display and go have a beer
and forget all the competition BS. Most of the judges today are not
even qualified in the model they are judging, just a live body that was
recruted from the field. We don’t even have the Judges Test we had
before and credentials to prove you completed the course. If you want
tosee real judging go to Pebble Beach Concour sometime and see how its
done.
Now that I have completely P----d everybody off, I’ll go judge another
Concour

Len Wheeler