[concours] Colors under the Bonnet

Dick, Mark, and Chip: Thank you all very much for your efforts in responding
so thoroughly to my questions regarding correct colors under the bonnet!
This group of “listers” has shown it’s colors time and time again. You guys
are wonderful. Now for the really tough question… how, when, or does one
ever, enlighten a judge on such things. I am very new to the Concours scene
and would not want to appear disrespectful. Any thoughts?
ETYPE63@AOL.COM

ETYPE63,

If a judge questions the “authenticity” of any color or feature, and/or
deducts points for them, you must initial those deductions and will be
given the opportunity to rebut them. That’s when you pull out your JCNA
Seminar booklet, Owners Manual, Parts Book, Operating and Service
Manual, Factory Brochure, etc. to document your car’s configuration.

Many judges will be well qualified and will avoid making deductions for
minor undocumentable differences. Unfortunately, there’s no surefire
defense against judges who mark discrepancies based (at best) on their
memory of a car they owned 20 years ago. There’s always the JCNA Protest
Board for significant problems which can’t be resolved on the day of the
event.

You’ll do just fine.

Dick Cavicke

At 09:30 AM 6/15/99 -0700, Dick wrote to ETYPE63:======================================

If a judge questions the “authenticity” of any color or feature, and/or
deducts points for them, you must initial those deductions and will be
given the opportunity to rebut them. That’s when you pull out your JCNA
Seminar booklet, Owners Manual, Parts Book, Operating and Service
Manual, Factory Brochure, etc. to document your car’s configuration.

Many judges will be well qualified and will avoid making deductions for
minor undocumentable differences. Unfortunately, there’s no surefire
defense against judges who mark discrepancies based (at best) on their
memory of a car they owned 20 years ago. There’s always the JCNA Protest
Board for significant problems which can’t be resolved on the day of the
event.
==================================
To Dick, ETYPE63 and the list et al,
Some additional words of wisdom and a question:
First the words of wisdom (wisdom - obviously not from me originally) that
were given to me by well experienced members of the Nation’s Capital Jaguar
Owners Club (NCJOC) - “NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, point out another car’s faults
to a judge in defense of your own while on the field of dreams.”

Now the question: In pulling out your support material, is there any other
reference material OTHER than official Jaguar and JCNA documentation that
is accepted?

R. Greg Lovingfoss
Maryland
64’ SI FHC - driver
64’ SI OTS - work-in-progress

Surely works like Nigel Thorley’s ORIGINAL XJ which documents equipment,
colours, options, etc for the xj saloons should be useable as evidence? It
is compiled from Jaguar archives and other sources.
Gregory----- Original Message -----
From: R. Greg Lovingfoss lovingfoss@lovingfoss.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [concours] Colors under the Bonnet

At 09:30 AM 6/15/99 -0700, Dick wrote to ETYPE63:

If a judge questions the “authenticity” of any color or feature, and/or
deducts points for them, you must initial those deductions and will be
given the opportunity to rebut them. That’s when you pull out your JCNA
Seminar booklet, Owners Manual, Parts Book, Operating and Service
Manual, Factory Brochure, etc. to document your car’s configuration.

Many judges will be well qualified and will avoid making deductions for
minor undocumentable differences. Unfortunately, there’s no surefire
defense against judges who mark discrepancies based (at best) on their
memory of a car they owned 20 years ago. There’s always the JCNA Protest
Board for significant problems which can’t be resolved on the day of the
event.
==================================
To Dick, ETYPE63 and the list et al,
Some additional words of wisdom and a question:
First the words of wisdom (wisdom - obviously not from me originally) that
were given to me by well experienced members of the Nation’s Capital
Jaguar
Owners Club (NCJOC) - “NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, point out another car’s faults
to a judge in defense of your own while on the field of dreams.”

Now the question: In pulling out your support material, is there any
other
reference material OTHER than official Jaguar and JCNA documentation that
is accepted?

R. Greg Lovingfoss
Maryland
64’ SI FHC - driver
64’ SI OTS - work-in-progress

Greg’s comment about Never pointing out faults of someone else’s car …
reminds me of a story of 2 friend who competed viciously for “Best of Show
Awards.” Person A knew that his car was being considered for Best of Show.
His rival was seen with other judges around his car. He assumed his rival was
also judge, so he stayed away from his car while it was being judged. His
rival’s car won Best of Show that year; and then he found out that his rival
wasn’t a judge, but had been helpfully pointing out faults in A’s car to the
judges! Their relationship never recovered from that sadly enough.
Mike Moore
63OTS

To all expressing concern over concours authenticity documentation.

PUBLICATIONS:
Currently, the ONLY sources acceptable to JCNA to validate a vehicle’s
specific features, configurations, colors, etc. are official Jaguar Inc.
publications including manuals, handbooks, catalogs and advertising
brochures. JCNA publications such as Seminar Bulletins and the Jaguar
Journal are also accepted.

There have been several efforts by authors to get their books certified
or endorsed by JCNA as authenticity references for specific Jaguar
models/classes. While some of the books appear to be excellent
resources, thus far no non-Jaguar Inc./JCNA books have been recognized
by JCNA. One result of this has been a constant clamor for JCNA to
improve its Seminar Bulletins; this is gradually being done.

Well informed judges will have done their homework. They will know which
features, etc. can be found in the approved literature, which features
have been well discussed and established in unofficial literature and
which others are tough if not impossible to document anywhere. I
encourage our judges to avoid deducting for items which they themselves
cannot document from an approved publication; however, under the rules,
the owner must provide the documentation, not the judge. If the owner
can prove the judge to be mistaken then and there, the deduction will be
deleted. If the owner discovers supporting documentation AFTER the
concours is over, he/she still has 45 days in which to file a protest if
desired.

INFLUENCING JUDGES:
As the result of an incident a few years back, the JCNA Judge’s manual
now contains the following directive: (In bold capital letters.)

“Any entrant, or his/her representative, who intentionally tries to
influence a judge or judges by offering verbal or written information or
by displaying material which would discredit another entry during the
concours will be disqualified from the concours d’elegance.”

A person with a sincere desire to educate a group of judges about a
specific class would best do that through the club’s Chief Judge, during
the off season when there would be less suspicion that the person was
trying to point out faults in his or her competition. It is always a
very frustrating experience to compete against a freshly over-restored
car (which you SILENTLY note to have many authenticity defects) and then
later, when the scores are announced, you realize that the judges never
recognized or deducted for those defects on that car. It’s the luck of
the draw!

Wishing you good judges,

Dick Cavicke
Chief Judge
San Diego Jaguar Club

Those other judges were just as much at fault as the competator who was pointing
out the faults. Those judges should have warned him to leave the car area or
else immediately disqualified his car.

Len

MMoore8425@aol.com wrote:> Greg’s comment about Never pointing out faults of someone else’s car …

reminds me of a story of 2 friend who competed viciously for “Best of Show
Awards.” Person A knew that his car was being considered for Best of Show.
His rival was seen with other judges around his car. He assumed his rival was
also judge, so he stayed away from his car while it was being judged. His
rival’s car won Best of Show that year; and then he found out that his rival
wasn’t a judge, but had been helpfully pointing out faults in A’s car to the
judges! Their relationship never recovered from that sadly enough.
Mike Moore
63OTS