[concours] JCNA classes

Hi all – I’ve shared this with Dick Cavicke – at his suggestion, I’m
sharing it with all of you. We’d really like your comments on this
proposal (up or down).

I’ve taken in the discussion on the Jag-Lovers Concours list re: classes,
as well as the discussion on <jcna.com/forums/>. Now, I’ve created a list
of suggested revisions for JCNA classes – here it is:*****
SUGGESTED REVISION OF CHAMPION DIVISION CLASSES (From Official JCNA
Concours d’ Elegance Rules, 1997 6th Reordered Edition, p/ 2-3)

  1. Classics (Pre-XK engine) Touring and Open Two Seaters, Drophead Coupes
    and Saloons: Swallow, SS & SS Jaguar, postwar 2.5 and 3.5, Mark V)

  2. XK 120, 140, 150

  3. E-Types (Series 1, 2, 3, 1961 - 1975)

  4. Early Big Saloons: Mark VII/VIIM/VIII/IX/X, 420G, Majestic Majors)

  5. Early Small Saloons (2.4, 3.4, Mark 2, 240, 340, 3.4S, 3.8S, 420)

  6. Saloons and Coupes – XJ6 and XJ12 (Series 1, 2, 3)

  7. XJS (1975 - 1989)

  8. Moderns (XJ6, 1988 - 94, X300, 1995 on, XK8, 1997 on, S-Type, 1999 on,
    X-Type, 2001 on)

  9. Competition, Special Interest Jaguars, Replica (Jaguar powered) Vehicles

  10. Preservation Class

SUGGESTED REVISION OF DRIVEN DIVISION CLASSES (from p/2-9)

D1: All classics (Pre-XK engine)

D2: XK120, 140, 150

D3: E-Types (Series 1, 2, 3, 1961 - 1975)

D4: Early Saloons – Mark VII/VIIM/VIII/IX/X, 420G, Majestic Majors, 2.4,
3.4, Mark 2, 240, 340, 3.4S, 3.8S, 420

D5: Saloons and Coupes --XJ6 and XJ12 (Series 1, 2, 3)

D6: Moderns (XJ6, 1988 - 94, X300, 1995 on, XK8, 1997 on, S-Type, 1999 on,
X-Type, 2001 on


Note that the changes are primarily to eliminate redundancies in classes.
Also, the creation of a new class for Moderns in both Champion and Driven
will provide a place for all the later Cats as they continue to be
introduced. Comments? Take care – Larry Martz

If I read correctly, you suggest combining all E-Types. At the concours I
frequent, the E-Types are numbering 12-20 per show. Some might argue it’s
the entry level car for Jaguar concours and perhaps the fastest growing
group… I’d vote “NO” on changing the current JCNA class structure for
E-Types.

Bob Hotaling
Jaguar Club of Florida----- Original Message -----
From: “Larry Martz” jagmkix@cwo.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 1:26 PM
Subject: [concours] JCNA classes

Hi all – I’ve shared this with Dick Cavicke – at his suggestion, I’m
sharing it with all of you. We’d really like your comments on this
proposal (up or down).

I’ve taken in the discussion on the Jag-Lovers Concours list re: classes,
as well as the discussion on <jcna.com/forums/>. Now, I’ve created a list
of suggested revisions for JCNA classes – here it is:


SUGGESTED REVISION OF CHAMPION DIVISION CLASSES (From Official JCNA
Concours d’ Elegance Rules, 1997 6th Reordered Edition, p/ 2-3)

  1. Classics (Pre-XK engine) Touring and Open Two Seaters, Drophead Coupes
    and Saloons: Swallow, SS & SS Jaguar, postwar 2.5 and 3.5, Mark V)

  2. XK 120, 140, 150

  3. E-Types (Series 1, 2, 3, 1961 - 1975)

  4. Early Big Saloons: Mark VII/VIIM/VIII/IX/X, 420G, Majestic Majors)

  5. Early Small Saloons (2.4, 3.4, Mark 2, 240, 340, 3.4S, 3.8S, 420)

  6. Saloons and Coupes – XJ6 and XJ12 (Series 1, 2, 3)

  7. XJS (1975 - 1989)

  8. Moderns (XJ6, 1988 - 94, X300, 1995 on, XK8, 1997 on, S-Type, 1999 on,
    X-Type, 2001 on)

  9. Competition, Special Interest Jaguars, Replica (Jaguar powered)
    Vehicles

  10. Preservation Class

SUGGESTED REVISION OF DRIVEN DIVISION CLASSES (from p/2-9)

D1: All classics (Pre-XK engine)

D2: XK120, 140, 150

D3: E-Types (Series 1, 2, 3, 1961 - 1975)

D4: Early Saloons – Mark VII/VIIM/VIII/IX/X, 420G, Majestic Majors, 2.4,
3.4, Mark 2, 240, 340, 3.4S, 3.8S, 420

D5: Saloons and Coupes --XJ6 and XJ12 (Series 1, 2, 3)

D6: Moderns (XJ6, 1988 - 94, X300, 1995 on, XK8, 1997 on, S-Type, 1999 on,
X-Type, 2001 on


Note that the changes are primarily to eliminate redundancies in classes.
Also, the creation of a new class for Moderns in both Champion and Driven
will provide a place for all the later Cats as they continue to be
introduced. Comments? Take care – Larry Martz

wow, that’s pretty drastic.

Champion :

  • I think 1 (pre XK) and 2 (XK120-140-150) is justified by the number of
    entries in these classes

  • Combining all E-types is a mistake as C5 is already the largest class.
    Maybe combining the S1 and S2 cars, but mixing the V12 and the XK engined is
    not going to work because of the huge difference under the bonnet. The
    number of components in a V12 E is so much larger that it doesn’t seem fair.

  • I don’t know enough about the differences between the S1 2 and 3 XJ6 to
    comment except that from a number point of view it makes sense. Unlike the
    E-types.

  • Combining early XJ40s with late models cars is also a mistake, as these
    cars have little in common and will place the owners of these cars at a
    disadvantage next to new car. I think a split is needed between the
    XJ40/X300 Vs X308/X/S. Since there are few XK8/R entering I guess they
    could go in the same class.

In Driven :

  • All E-types together could work since the engine isn’t judged unlike
    Champion

  • I would also split the modern class in XJ40/X 300 Vs X308/S/X/XK8

If anybody is interested, I can run a test of the national results with
consolidation to see how many entries we would have in each class so far for
2001.

Pascal----- Original Message -----
From: “Larry Martz” jagmkix@cwo.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 1:26 PM
Subject: [concours] JCNA classes

Hi all – I’ve shared this with Dick Cavicke – at his suggestion, I’m
sharing it with all of you. We’d really like your comments on this
proposal (up or down).
<><><<>

Larry,

I think this suggestion goes too far the other way. Let me roughly reproduce
Steve Averill’s graph and further identify the classes so you don’t have to
jump to the JCNA website for definitions.

Here is what Steve put together on the JCNA site. This is for the first 28
concours, through 9/22. This includes the Challenge Cup at Franklin, where
there were 176 cars. That means that if you were to take that out of the
mix, the average number of cars at the remaining shows would be even less.

80+
| +
70+ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . + . . . . . . . + . . . . . +
| . . . + .
60+ . . . + .
| . . . + .
50+ . . . .
| . + . . .
40+ . + . . .
| + . . + + . + .
30+ + . + + . . + .
| ^ . + . . .
20+ + + . + + . + + . .
| . . + + . .
10+ . + . . . + +±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±+
A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0

A - 1A: Classics (Pre-XK engine) Touring and Open Two Seaters: Swallow, SS &
SS Jaguar
B - 1B: Classics (Pre-XK engine) Drophead Coupes and Saloons: Swallow, SS &
SS Jaguar
(1A and 1B are combined on the graph)
C - 2: XK 120
D - 3: XK 140
E - 4: XK 150
F - 5: E-Types (1961-67)
G - 6: E-Types (1967-68) and Series 2 E-Types (1968-71)
H - 7: Series 3 E-Types (1971-75)
I - 8: Saloons: MK VII, MK VIII, MK IX, MK 10, 420G, Majestic Majors
J - 9: Saloons: 2.4 & 3.4 (MK 1), MK 2 Series (2.4, 3.4, 3.8 liter), 240,
340, 3.4S, 3.8S, & 420
K - 10: Saloons: Series I XJ6 and XJ12 (1968-73)
L - 11: Saloons and Coupes: Series II XJ6 and XJ12 (1974-79)
M - 12: Saloons: Series III XJ6 (1979-1987) (Non-US Series III XJ12
1979-1992)
N - 13: Saloons: XJ Saloons including XJ6 (XJ40 1988-94), XJ6 and XJR (X300
1995-97),
XJ8 and XJR (X308 1998-On); JaguarSport XJR (1989-On)
O - 14: XJ-S (1976-96), including Hess & Eisenhardt Convertible (1986-88);
JaguarSport XJR-S, etc.
P - 15: Competition Jaguars (See Note?)
Q - 16: Special Interest Jaguars and Replica (Jaguar powered) Vehicles (See
Note??)
R - 17: XK8 (1996-On)
S - 18: Preservation Class (See Note???)
T - 19: Saloon: S-TYPE (1999-On)


1 - D1: All Classics (Pre-XK engine) and XK 120, XK 140, XK 150
2 - D2: E-Types (1961-67)
3 - D3: E-Types (1967-68) and Series 2 E-Types (1968-71)
4 - D4: Series 3 E-Types (1971-75)
5 - D5: Saloons: MK VII, MK VIII, MK IX, MK 10, 2.4, 3.4 (MK 1),
MK 2 (2.4L, 3.4L, 3.8L), 240, 340, 3.4S, 3.8S, 420, 420G, Majestic
Majors
6 - D6: Saloons and Coupes: XJ6 and XJ12 Series I, II, III (1968-87)
(Non-US Series III XJ12 1979-92)
7 - D7: Saloons: XJ Saloons including XJ6 (XJ40 1988-94), XJ6 and XJR (X300
1995-97),
XJ8 and XJR (X308 1998-On); JaguarSport XJR (1989-On)
8 - D8: XJ-S (1976-96), H&E convertible; JaguarSport variants, i.e. XJR-S,
etc. (1989-96)
9 - D9: XK8 (1996-On)
0 - D10: Saloon: S-TYPE (1999-On)

If you look at the numbers, there are 13 classes with right around one entry
per show or less, average, including Franklin: 1A, 1B, 3, 4, 8, 9, 10, 11,
12, 13, 15, 17, 18, 19, D5, D9, and D10.

Are there logical combinations in that group?

1A + 1B would yield an average of one car per show.
3(140s) + 4(150s) would yield an average of about 1.5 cars per show
8(Large) + 9(Small Saloons) would yield an average of about 1.5 cars per
show
10(XJ1) + 11(XJ2) + 12(XJ3) would yield an average of about 2 cars per show
13(XJ4+) + 17(XK8) + 19(S) would yield a little over 2 cars per show
15(Comp) + 16(SI) would yield slightly less than 2 cars per show.
18(Pres) although small is uncombinable.
D5(Saloons) is uncombinable
D9(XK8) + D10(S) would yield less than a car per show, but combined with
D7(XJ4+) would be close to three per show

The most extreme realignment I could imagine is (followed by avg. number of
cars per show):

  1. All Classics (Pre-XK engine) (1)
  2. XK120, XK140, XK150 (2.5)
  3. E-Types (1961-67) (2.5)
  4. E-Types (1967-68) and Series 2 E-Types (1968-71) (1.5)
  5. Series 3 E-Types (1971-75) (1+)
  6. Saloons: MK VII, MK VIII, MK IX, MK 10, 420G, Majestic Majors,
    2.4 & 3.4 (MK 1), MK 2 Series (2.4, 3.4, 3.8 liter), 240, 340,
    3.4S, 3.8S, & 420 (1.5)
  7. Saloons and Coupes: XJ6 and XJ12
    (1968-87, Non-US Series III XJ12 1979-1992) (2)
  8. XJ-S All (2+)
  9. Moderns: XJ Saloons (1988-present), XK8, S-Type (2+)
  10. Competition and Special Interest (<2)
  11. Preservation (<1)

D1. All Classics (Pre-XK engine) and XK 120, XK 140, XK 150 (1+)
D2. E-Types (1961-67) (2+)
D3. E-Types (1967-68) and Series 2 E-Types (1968-71) (2)
D4. Series 3 E-Types (1971-75) (1+)
D5. Saloons: MK VII, MK VIII, MK IX, MK 10, 420G, Majestic Majors,
2.4 & 3.4 (MK 1), MK 2 Series (2.4, 3.4, 3.8 liter), 240, 340,
3.4S, 3.8S, & 420 (1)
D6. Saloons and Coupes: XJ6 and XJ12 Series I, II, III (1968-87)
(Non-US Series III XJ12 1979-92) (2+)
D7. XJ-S All (2+)
D8. Moderns: XJ Saloons (1988-present), XK8, S-Type (2.5)

If we wanted to ease up just a little, the XK120s could be split from the
140s and 150s in championship. The Series III XJ6es could be split from the
Is and IIs in champ. If you didn’t mind the inconsistency, the Driven Modern
XJs could stand on their own, but that wouldn’t match the configuration of
the Champ moderns and would leave the XK8 and S-type in a very small group.

As far as splitting goes, I’ll repeat myself. I don’t think we should
consider splitting any classes until there are more than three cars per show
on average.

I said earlier that this should be re-evaluated on an annual basis, but
someone suggested a biennial re-adjustment. Because of the biennial
Challenge Cup, I think that is a good idea. If classes are re-evaluated at
the end of each Challenge Cup year, it will inflate the numbers a little and
keep the class slashing to a minimum. But like I said, these numbers include
the Challenge Cup, so the averages at normal concours would be even lower.
In fact, they’ll go down a little as we finish out the year.

As I said before, this will give people one more reason to have their cars
judged. If they show their car, there is less chance that their class will
be joined with another. If we top my number of three cars per show, the
class might even be split.

What’s everyone think?

“Mark 1” Mark Stephenson (@Mark_Stephenson2)
1952 XK120 Roadster S673129
1958 Mark 1 / 1984 XJ6 / 1985,6,7 XJ6 VDP
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona (www.cableone.net/jcca)

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org
[mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]On Behalf Of Larry Martz
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 10:27 AM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [concours] JCNA classes

Hi all – I’ve shared this with Dick Cavicke – at his suggestion, I’m
sharing it with all of you. We’d really like your comments on this
proposal (up or down).

I’ve taken in the discussion on the Jag-Lovers Concours list re: classes,
as well as the discussion on <jcna.com/forums/>. Now, I’ve created a list
of suggested revisions for JCNA classes – here it is:


SUGGESTED REVISION OF CHAMPION DIVISION CLASSES (From Official JCNA
Concours d’ Elegance Rules, 1997 6th Reordered Edition, p/ 2-3)

  1. Classics (Pre-XK engine) Touring and Open Two Seaters, Drophead Coupes
    and Saloons: Swallow, SS & SS Jaguar, postwar 2.5 and 3.5, Mark V)

  2. XK 120, 140, 150

  3. E-Types (Series 1, 2, 3, 1961 - 1975)

  4. Early Big Saloons: Mark VII/VIIM/VIII/IX/X, 420G, Majestic Majors)

  5. Early Small Saloons (2.4, 3.4, Mark 2, 240, 340, 3.4S, 3.8S, 420)

  6. Saloons and Coupes – XJ6 and XJ12 (Series 1, 2, 3)

  7. XJS (1975 - 1989)

  8. Moderns (XJ6, 1988 - 94, X300, 1995 on, XK8, 1997 on, S-Type, 1999 on,
    X-Type, 2001 on)

  9. Competition, Special Interest Jaguars, Replica (Jaguar powered) Vehicles

  10. Preservation Class

SUGGESTED REVISION OF DRIVEN DIVISION CLASSES (from p/2-9)

D1: All classics (Pre-XK engine)

D2: XK120, 140, 150

D3: E-Types (Series 1, 2, 3, 1961 - 1975)

D4: Early Saloons – Mark VII/VIIM/VIII/IX/X, 420G, Majestic Majors, 2.4,
3.4, Mark 2, 240, 340, 3.4S, 3.8S, 420

D5: Saloons and Coupes --XJ6 and XJ12 (Series 1, 2, 3)

D6: Moderns (XJ6, 1988 - 94, X300, 1995 on, XK8, 1997 on, S-Type, 1999 on,
X-Type, 2001 on


Note that the changes are primarily to eliminate redundancies in classes.
Also, the creation of a new class for Moderns in both Champion and Driven
will provide a place for all the later Cats as they continue to be
introduced. Comments? Take care – Larry Martz

I am a little concerned, where did the XJ-S cars from 90 to 96 end up on
your plan?-----Original Message-----
From: jagmkix@cwo.com [mailto:jagmkix@cwo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 1:27 PM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [concours] JCNA classes

Hi all – I’ve shared this with Dick Cavicke – at his suggestion, I’m
sharing it with all of you. We’d really like your comments on this
proposal (up or down).

I’ve taken in the discussion on the Jag-Lovers Concours list re: classes,
as well as the discussion on <jcna.com/forums/>. Now, I’ve created a list
of suggested revisions for JCNA classes – here it is:


SUGGESTED REVISION OF CHAMPION DIVISION CLASSES (From Official JCNA
Concours d’ Elegance Rules, 1997 6th Reordered Edition, p/ 2-3)

  1. Classics (Pre-XK engine) Touring and Open Two Seaters, Drophead Coupes
    and Saloons: Swallow, SS & SS Jaguar, postwar 2.5 and 3.5, Mark V)

  2. XK 120, 140, 150

  3. E-Types (Series 1, 2, 3, 1961 - 1975)

  4. Early Big Saloons: Mark VII/VIIM/VIII/IX/X, 420G, Majestic Majors)

  5. Early Small Saloons (2.4, 3.4, Mark 2, 240, 340, 3.4S, 3.8S, 420)

  6. Saloons and Coupes – XJ6 and XJ12 (Series 1, 2, 3)

  7. XJS (1975 - 1989)

  8. Moderns (XJ6, 1988 - 94, X300, 1995 on, XK8, 1997 on, S-Type, 1999 on,
    X-Type, 2001 on)

  9. Competition, Special Interest Jaguars, Replica (Jaguar powered) Vehicles

  10. Preservation Class

SUGGESTED REVISION OF DRIVEN DIVISION CLASSES (from p/2-9)

D1: All classics (Pre-XK engine)

D2: XK120, 140, 150

D3: E-Types (Series 1, 2, 3, 1961 - 1975)

D4: Early Saloons – Mark VII/VIIM/VIII/IX/X, 420G, Majestic Majors, 2.4,
3.4, Mark 2, 240, 340, 3.4S, 3.8S, 420

D5: Saloons and Coupes --XJ6 and XJ12 (Series 1, 2, 3)

D6: Moderns (XJ6, 1988 - 94, X300, 1995 on, XK8, 1997 on, S-Type, 1999 on,
X-Type, 2001 on


Note that the changes are primarily to eliminate redundancies in classes.
Also, the creation of a new class for Moderns in both Champion and Driven
will provide a place for all the later Cats as they continue to be
introduced. Comments? Take care – Larry Martz