[concours] Judging question


(Ed Nantes) #1

We have restored a 1940 model SS saloon There has been
disagreement as to the number of flutes in the lenses for a
1940 model.

Would I be correct in saying that, to be exactly as
originally delivered in 1940, the lenses should not be seen,
being covered by the wartime black out shields that all car
had then?–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
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(popop) #2

In reply to a message from Ed Nantes sent Tue 20 May 2014:

Hello Ed,

I would suspect that the black-out shield was fitted over
the original fluted lens by dealers or owners after the
start of the Sep. 1940 blitz

In addition, depending the original country of import, not
all countries required black-out shields during that period.

Regards,
Daniel (popop)–
popop
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(Graham Jordan) #3

In reply to a message from Ed Nantes sent Tue 20 May 2014:

Hi Ed.
How many do you believe it should have and how many are
being suggested it should have?
Should be part number 506508. Correct?
Jordy–
Jordymk5
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(Ed Nantes) #4

In reply to a message from Jordymk5 sent Sat 20 Sep 2014:

Personally I would think the shields would have been required
soon after the outbreak of war in 1939.

After all the RAF bombed Berlin on the 1 st night.

SA the car in question was delivered by driving across France
ahead of the German advance , I fell that makes it even more
likely.

But I think someo e in UK could be more definitive

That car had the shields [ not installed] , with it.–
The original message included these comments:

How many do you believe it should have and how many are
being suggested it should have?
Should be part number 506508. Correct?


Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
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(Graham Jordan) #5

Question.
In the concours judging of a vehicle which is considered better

A. A mint new reproduction item. Not original but as close a
resemblance as available although not necessarily 100% correct.
OR
B. An original item restored to as good as humanly possible but
maybe having a few blemishes due to it’s age.

                         ?

Regards, jordy
669181 120 FHC–
Jordymk5
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(Robert and Darlene Stevenson) #6

Hi Jordy,
I assume that you’re referring to JCNA Concours judging and in that case an original part with a few blemishes is always better then an incorrect part. An non-authentic part, no matter how close to the original part, will/should always take the full non-authentic deduction. If nothing else you should download chapter six from the JCNA Concours Rule book and one of the judging sheets, engine area will work fine, to get some idea of deductions, cleanliness /condition Vs non-authentic.
Bob
889076
Plymouth, Mi.On Jan 5, 2016, at 2:37 AM, Jordymk5 jordymk5@hotmail.com wrote

Question.
In the concours judging of a vehicle which is considered better

A. A mint new reproduction item. Not original but as close a
resemblance as available although not necessarily 100% correct.
OR
B. An original item restored to as good as humanly possible but
maybe having a few blemishes due to it’s age.

                        ?

Regards, jordy
669181 120 FHC

Jordymk5
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


(Lovell) #7

In reply to a message from Robert Stevenson sent Tue 5 Jan 2016:

Greetings All,

Could be wrong but a repro part, last I knew, is a
correct part unless the manufacturer messed up on a logo
due to licensing, but repro scan be authentic as opposed
to non-authentic.

If this is not the case, there are a myriad of non-
authentic body panels out there along with chrome,
upholstery, etc. Not everything out there is licensed by
Jaguar.

Heck some of the body tooling being used that is worn to
the extent that a crisp line is no longer in the finished
product made on the ‘‘original’’ tooling.

So we should have the owners sign off on these also?–
The original message included these comments:

Hi Jordy,

A. A mint new reproduction item. Not original but as close a
B. An original item restored to as good as humanly possible but


Lovell
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(Jag-ur) #8

In reply to a message from Lovell sent Tue 5 Jan 2016:

This is always an issue which garners a huge controversy My choice
is to always present my car using every possible reasonable effort
to secure the finest NOS spares I can find… and keeping
meticulous records of everything. There are in some parts of the
southern US where pretty wins over correct every time. This
problem has been ongoing for years and is well recognised by those
who know. I could go on at length but feel I’m flogging a dead
horse. There will be no reliable concourse scores until we have
paid judges. In principle the most original and best presented car
should win… in practise it doesn’t. Rules aren’t worth the paper
they are printed on unless everyone follows them.–
The original message included these comments:

Could be wrong but a repro part, last I knew, is a
correct part unless the manufacturer messed up on a logo
due to licensing, but repro scan be authentic as opposed
to non-authentic.


godfrey
pender island bc, Canada
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(Steve Kennedy) #9

Godfrey,
Who would train these Paid Judges and what training material would they be
using? And who would raise the money to pay them. Entry fees would have to
be $300 to $500 per car.
Steve-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]
On Behalf Of godfrey
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 9:38 PM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [concours] Judging question

In reply to a message from Lovell sent Tue 5 Jan 2016:

This is always an issue which garners a huge controversy My choice
is to always present my car using every possible reasonable effort
to secure the finest NOS spares I can find… and keeping
meticulous records of everything. There are in some parts of the
southern US where pretty wins over correct every time. This
problem has been ongoing for years and is well recognised by those
who know. I could go on at length but feel I’m flogging a dead
horse. There will be no reliable concourse scores until we have
paid judges. In principle the most original and best presented car
should win… in practise it doesn’t. Rules aren’t worth the paper
they are printed on unless everyone follows them.

The original message included these comments:

Could be wrong but a repro part, last I knew, is a
correct part unless the manufacturer messed up on a logo
due to licensing, but repro scan be authentic as opposed
to non-authentic.


godfrey
pender island bc, Canada
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php


(Robert and Darlene Stevenson) #10

Well put Steve! I do hope that all of the knowledgable people out there are volunteering their expertise and time to make their clubs Concours more then a “Pretty Face” event!
Bob
889076
Plymouth, Mi.On Jan 5, 2016, at 11:58 PM, Steve Kennedy skennedy@ecentral.com wrote:

Godfrey,
Who would train these Paid Judges and what training material would they be
using? And who would raise the money to pay them. Entry fees would have to
be $300 to $500 per car.
Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]
On Behalf Of godfrey
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 9:38 PM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [concours] Judging question

In reply to a message from Lovell sent Tue 5 Jan 2016:

This is always an issue which garners a huge controversy My choice
is to always present my car using every possible reasonable effort
to secure the finest NOS spares I can find… and keeping
meticulous records of everything. There are in some parts of the
southern US where pretty wins over correct every time. This
problem has been ongoing for years and is well recognised by those
who know. I could go on at length but feel I’m flogging a dead
horse. There will be no reliable concourse scores until we have
paid judges. In principle the most original and best presented car
should win… in practise it doesn’t. Rules aren’t worth the paper
they are printed on unless everyone follows them.

The original message included these comments:

Could be wrong but a repro part, last I knew, is a
correct part unless the manufacturer messed up on a logo
due to licensing, but repro scan be authentic as opposed
to non-authentic.


godfrey
pender island bc, Canada
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php


(Jag-ur) #11

In reply to a message from Robert Stevenson sent Wed 6 Jan 2016:

Robert I too will hope the same… HOWEVER based on
results … there aren’t enough of them! After over twelve
years of careful research. and numerous requests,
including eventually begging , grovelling and pleading for
others to assist me in the endeavour… I came to the
reluctant conclusion that there just wasn’t the support to
see the 120 judging guide completed. I eventually threw in
the towel a couple of years ago. Steve Kennedy has taken
up the mantle… and from what I understand ( correct me if
I am wrong Steve) he is now facing exactly the same
problem. Where as it is in everyones best interest to have
a reliable resource of model specific guides, the
aggregate will to see these completed just isn’t
happening. So we will continue to see ‘‘pretty faces’’ win
over original cars because that is by default what is
happening. Each one of us has something valuable to
contribute… get with it guys!–
The original message included these comments:

Who would train these Paid Judges and what training material would they be
using? And who would raise the money to pay them. Entry fees would have to
be $300 to $500 per car.


godfrey
pender island bc, Canada
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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(Robert and Darlene Stevenson) #12

I thought that your name seemed familiar, probably as I seem to remember that we traded messages when you were starting on your quest to produce a XK120 judging guide. Like you I wish Steve well on his quest but I’m afraid that the facts of life are that the people that researched these cars years are and built Concours winners themselves are pretty much gone, pessimistic, but I’m afraid true.
Bob
889076
Plymouth, Mi
PS I just remembered that Bassett Jaguar is an old time Jaguar repair shop on the east coast, I wonder if any one has ever contacted him about helping on a guide.On Jan 6, 2016, at 12:07 PM, godfrey artrageus@shaw.ca wrote:

In reply to a message from Robert Stevenson sent Wed 6 Jan 2016:

Robert I too will hope the same… HOWEVER based on
results … there aren’t enough of them! After over twelve
years of careful research. and numerous requests,
including eventually begging , grovelling and pleading for
others to assist me in the endeavour… I came to the
reluctant conclusion that there just wasn’t the support to
see the 120 judging guide completed. I eventually threw in
the towel a couple of years ago. Steve Kennedy has taken
up the mantle… and from what I understand ( correct me if
I am wrong Steve) he is now facing exactly the same
problem. Where as it is in everyones best interest to have
a reliable resource of model specific guides, the
aggregate will to see these completed just isn’t
happening. So we will continue to see ‘‘pretty faces’’ win
over original cars because that is by default what is
happening. Each one of us has something valuable to
contribute… get with it guys!

The original message included these comments:

Who would train these Paid Judges and what training material would they be
using? And who would raise the money to pay them. Entry fees would have to
be $300 to $500 per car.


godfrey
pender island bc, Canada
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(Steve Kennedy) #13

Bob,
Your Series 1 E-Type Judging Guide is good, but if we want well educated
judges, they need photos to go with your text. We are asking judges to LOOK
at something to judge whether or not it is correct, such as your reference
to 4 different radio finishing panels. Most people don’t know that there is
more than one style or what to look for if they do.

With your permission, I am willing to take your guide and add photos to it.
There are enough E-Types out there, each of which may have just one
component that is correct and that they could send me a photo of to make the
Series 1 E-Type Judging Guide more visually helpful for judging.

I no longer have editing access to the JCNA site, but I can post the guide
on my web site and add information and photos as they become available.

Steve-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]
On Behalf Of Robert Stevenson
Sent: Friday, January 08, 2016 7:59 AM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [concours] Judging question

I thought that your name seemed familiar, probably as I seem to remember
that we traded messages when you were starting on your quest to produce a
XK120 judging guide. Like you I wish Steve well on his quest but I’m afraid
that the facts of life are that the people that researched these cars years
are and built Concours winners themselves are pretty much gone, pessimistic,
but I’m afraid true.
Bob
889076
Plymouth, Mi
PS I just remembered that Bassett Jaguar is an old time Jaguar repair shop
on the east coast, I wonder if any one has ever contacted him about helping
on a guide.
On Jan 6, 2016, at 12:07 PM, godfrey artrageus@shaw.ca wrote:

In reply to a message from Robert Stevenson sent Wed 6 Jan 2016:

Robert I too will hope the same… HOWEVER based on results … there
aren’t enough of them! After over twelve years of careful research.
and numerous requests, including eventually begging , grovelling and
pleading for others to assist me in the endeavour… I came to the
reluctant conclusion that there just wasn’t the support to see the 120
judging guide completed. I eventually threw in the towel a couple of
years ago. Steve Kennedy has taken up the mantle… and from what I
understand ( correct me if I am wrong Steve) he is now facing exactly
the same problem. Where as it is in everyones best interest to have a
reliable resource of model specific guides, the aggregate will to see
these completed just isn’t happening. So we will continue to see
‘‘pretty faces’’ win over original cars because that is by default
what is happening. Each one of us has something valuable to
contribute… get with it guys!

The original message included these comments:

Who would train these Paid Judges and what training material would
they be using? And who would raise the money to pay them. Entry fees
would have to be $300 to $500 per car.


godfrey
pender island bc, Canada
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]-- --Support
Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php


(Robert and Darlene Stevenson) #14

Steve,
I thought that this discussion, adding pictures to the judging guide, was a private conversation between the two of us, and as that is no longer true, I will repeat a few things that I covered in a message that I sent you and add how and why this guide came to pass. The S1 judging guide started off as something that I put together for myself when I was invited to judge S1 E-Types at the national meet in St Louis in 1991. A few years later Dick Howe, NC area rep, became aware of it and he ran off a few shirt pocket size copies for me and, I assume, his and some of the clubs in the NC region. I and my judges (I was Chief Judge for 24 years) here in Michigan used it, and an expanded version, for a number of years and around 2000 Jerry Nell asked me to expand it further and consider presenting it to JCNA for approval as an official judging guide. The expanded guide was presented at a seminar at the JCNA AGM in Kansas City in 2002 and was posted on the JCNA we site for comments etc and approved at the AGM in Charlotte NC in 2003.
This guide was NEVER intended as a restoration guide or to be used by a person not familiar with S1 E-Types and the introduction to the guide clearly states “The following information is intended as a reference to help the KNOWLEDGEABLE E-Type judge determine what is correct on a given car.” Realistically a S1 E-Type, with all of the changes made throughout a model year, cannot be accurately judged without a reference source AT HAND and with this in mind I’ve attempted to keep the guide as compact as possible with the thought of adding pictures never considered as the increase in size would make it less likely to be carried by the judge. I’ve attempted to describe all changes listed as accurately as possible, re-read the section covering the radio finishing panel changes that you mention and you and you’ll see it’s very descriptive of the changes and, most importantly, the vin number when the change took place. The judges at JCNA Concours are limited to 15 minutes to judge for authenticity and cleanliness and if a judge has to look at pictures to understand what he/she is judging that person has no business judging and the Chief Judge is derelict in his/her duties!
I do appreciate your offer to add pictures to the guide but the previous paragraph explains my feelings on this subject. I assume that you know that all copyrights to this guide were signed over to JCNA in 2003 and it is their property and cannot be posted anywhere without their permission.
Bob Stevenson
Jag of Michigan

Bob,
Your Series 1 E-Type Judging Guide is good, but if we want well educated
judges, they need photos to go with your text. We are asking judges to LOOK
at something to judge whether or not it is correct, such as your reference
to 4 different radio finishing panels. Most people don’t know that there is
more than one style or what to look for if they do.

With your permission, I am willing to take your guide and add photos to it.
There are enough E-Types out there, each of which may have just one
component that is correct and that they could send me a photo of to make the
Series 1 E-Type Judging Guide more visually helpful for judging.

I no longer have editing access to the JCNA site, but I can post the guide
on my web site and add information and photos as they become available.

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]
On Behalf Of Robert Stevenson
Sent: Friday, January 08, 2016 7:59 AM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [concours] Judging question

I thought that your name seemed familiar, probably as I seem to remember
that we traded messages when you were starting on your quest to produce a
XK120 judging guide. Like you I wish Steve well on his quest but I’m afraid
that the facts of life are that the people that researched these cars years
are and built Concours winners themselves are pretty much gone, pessimistic,
but I’m afraid true.
Bob
889076
Plymouth, Mi
PS I just remembered that Bassett Jaguar is an old time Jaguar repair shop
on the east coast, I wonder if any one has ever contacted him about helping
on a guide.

In reply to a message from Robert Stevenson sent Wed 6 Jan 2016:

Robert I too will hope the same… HOWEVER based on results … there
aren’t enough of them! After over twelve years of careful research.
and numerous requests, including eventually begging , grovelling and
pleading for others to assist me in the endeavour… I came to the
reluctant conclusion that there just wasn’t the support to see the 120
judging guide completed. I eventually threw in the towel a couple of
years ago. Steve Kennedy has taken up the mantle… and from what I
understand ( correct me if I am wrong Steve) he is now facing exactly
the same problem. Where as it is in everyones best interest to have a
reliable resource of model specific guides, the aggregate will to see
these completed just isn’t happening. So we will continue to see
‘‘pretty faces’’ win over original cars because that is by default
what is happening. Each one of us has something valuable to
contribute… get with it guys!

The original message included these comments:

Who would train these Paid Judges and what training material would
they be using? And who would raise the money to pay them. Entry fees
would have to be $300 to $500 per car.


godfrey
pender island bc, Canada
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Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php


NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1>> On Jan 8, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Steve Kennedy skennedy@ecentral.com wrote:

On Jan 6, 2016, at 12:07 PM, godfrey artrageus@shaw.ca wrote:


(Bob S) #15

In reply to a message from Robert Stevenson sent Sat 9 Jan 2016:

Hi All,
As a user of the series 1 judges guide for many years, I
would not want pictures in it. The week before the show I
reread the guide. If I have any questions then I look at
my reference materials. A lot of the info is in the parts
book, Dr. Haddock’s books and other reference books. If I
have any real questions then I ask Mr. Stevenson or
another knowledgeable judge.

It takes effort and desire to become a good judge for a
particular model. The day of the show is not the time to
learn about that model.

As for paid judges, who is going to pay them? Dues are
already high enough. The club can’t print money like the
government.

Cheers,
Bob S–
The original message included these comments:

This guide was NEVER intended as a restoration guide or to be used by a person not familiar with S1 E-Types and the introduction to the guide clearly states ‘‘The following information is intended as a reference to help the KNOWLEDGEABLE E-Type judge determine what is correct on a given car.’’ Realistically a S1 E-Type, with all of the changes made throughout a model year, cannot be accurately judged without a reference source AT HAND and with this in mind I�ve attempted to keep the guide as compact as possible with the thought of adding pictures never considered as the increase in size would make it less likely to be carried by the judge. I�ve attempted to describe all changes listed as accurately as possible, re-read the section covering the radio finishing panel changes that you mention and you and you�ll see it�s very descriptive of the changes and, most importantly, the vin number when the change took place. The judges at JCNA Concours are limited to 15 minutes to judge for authenticity and cleanliness and if a judge has to look at pictures to understand what he/she is judging that person has no business judging and the Chief Judge is derelict in his/her duties!


Bob S. 64 FHC JAG of Mi
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