[concours] Re: Concours Participation

(bounced due to taboo words - admin)

I originally subscribed to the Concours list because I had intentions of
participating in the concours events next year. I am about to unsub*scribe
and
thought that maybe my comments could be of some value to you before I do so.
I have spent many thousands of dollars restoring my Sovereign back to it’s
original condition. I have taken considerable care to obtain original
equipment and at the same time I have made some changes but these are all
internal items designed to improve the overall efficiency of the engine.
Improved ECU, Air flow meter and Air filter. Now the goodies. I have been
reading your discussions about the rules and you have managed to convince me
and please correct me if I am wrong that the rules as they stand, to be
polite, are very loose and just about anything goes. On top of this they are
all, subject to interpretation by each individual Judge. The Judges that are
used do not have to prove their qualification nor are they expected to meet
any particular standard. Maybe I am totally off base with this suggestion
but
this sounds to me more like a, who you know situation more than what car you
own. You have spent much energy discussing the splitting of classes. Surely
the area of discussion should have been on how to redefine the rule book
eliminating or at least reducing the variances and setting up a system to
qualify your Judges. When using define rules and qualified Judges the best
car will always rise to the top regardless of engine size. Both 6 and 12
cylinder cars and different series would be judged accordingly within the
boundaries of their own set specifications. In other words they would both
start on an equal playing field even though they are contained within the
same class. Judges whims or personal preferences would be minimised and a
semblance of uniform judging would be experienced between different shows.
This would have the additional benefit of making the National standing
results more respectable and much more representative. I have no problem
with
my car being closely scrutinised by an expert, however I would expect it to
be done on an equal basis by a well informed individual within a clearly
defined set of rules. I have no desire to enter my car into a political
arena
which is what I see exists presently. Now if I have managed to form these
opinions from your conversations, other potential exhibitors could have as
well. Radical changes will have to be made if you expect new blood to join
in
and participate. I hope you find this constructive

Bob.

Bob,

As you and I have had many a lengthy discussion, let me give you my concours
impressions. It’s not a popularity contest or a who-you-know thing, at least
not at the shows I’ve attended. It’s just that there is a notable lack of
knowledge about the cars among many of the judges. There’s not much you can
do about that since judges can’t judge a class where they have an entry, and
what they have entered is usually what they know the most about. So the
people most knowledgeable about a particular model often can’t judge that
class. What’s important to remember is that what judges don’t know can only
help your score.

In other words if you are missing a widget on your car and someone else
isn’t, and the judge doesn’t know a widget is supposed to be there, then you
won’t get the deduction. The reverse is true to the benefit of the other
guy, but your score isn’t affected. If the widget is large enough, a sharp
judge will notice that one car has it and one doesn’t, and question the
owner of the car with the missing widget. Any unfairness comes when your car
has more widgets than someone else’s doesn’t and the judge doesn’t catch it,
but usually if there are a few missing parts on one car, the judge will
catch at least some of them tilting the scales in your favor.

Cleanliness and condition are things anyone can spot, so make sure your car
is clean and detailed inside and out. If your car is spotless, paint is
flawless, body panels are straight, interior is immaculate, the mechanicals
work, then it comes down to who has more of the bits. If you are missing
nothing, then you’ll receive 100 points, no matter where you show the car.

If you have any manuals on the car, bring them with you, in case there’s a
dispute about something that belongs there and isn’t or vice versa. If you
can show them written or pictorial proof that things are the way they should
be, there won’t be a deduction.

I think the biggest complaints you’ve heard most people make is not
unfairness at a particular show, but the inconsistency among shows. One set
of judges at one show will find something missing and the next set at a
different show won’t, but they’ll find something else. A car might receive a
99.92 at one show and a 99.42, if a sharp judge catches more things missing
at another. If all the same cars are at both shows and there is as little as
a tenth of a point difference between the two cars, chances are excellent
that the same car would get first place.

Don’t get too down on judging. It’s not an exact science and never will be.
Short of paying full-time staff to familiarize themselves with a particular
model and then flying them all over the country from JCNA to the different
concours, we’ll have to rely on local talent. You can’t make the
requirements too stringent for them, or you won’t have any judges. So you
have to sacrifice some quality and accuracy for people to do the judging.

“Mark 1” Mark Stephenson (@Mark_Stephenson2)
1952 XK120 Roadster S673129
1958 Mark 1 / 1984 XJ6 / 1985,6,7 XJ6 VDP
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona (www.cableone.net/jcca)-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org
[mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]On Behalf Of Peddlarbob@aol.com
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 2:18 PM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [concours] Re: Concours Participation

(bounced due to taboo words - admin)

I originally suscribed to the Concours list because I had intentions of
participating in the concours events next year. I am about to unsu
scribe
and
thought that maybe my comments could be of some value to you before I do so.
I have spent many thousands of dollars restoring my Sovereign back to it’s
original condition. I have taken considerable care to obtain original
equipment and at the same time I have made some changes but these are all
internal items designed to improve the overall efficiency of the engine.
Improved ECU, Air flow meter and Air filter. Now the goodies. I have been
reading your discussions about the rules and you have managed to convince me
and please correct me if I am wrong that the rules as they stand, to be
polite, are very loose and just about anything goes. On top of this they are
all, subject to interpretation by each individual Judge. The Judges that are
used do not have to prove their qualification nor are they expected to meet
any particular standard. Maybe I am totally off base with this suggestion
but
this sounds to me more like a, who you know situation more than what car you
own. You have spent much energy discussing the splitting of classes. Surely
the area of discussion should have been on how to redefine the rule book
eliminating or at least reducing the variances and setting up a system to
qualify your Judges. When using define rules and qualified Judges the best
car will always rise to the top regardless of engine size. Both 6 and 12
cylinder cars and different series would be judged accordingly within the
boundaries of their own set specifications. In other words they would both
start on an equal playing field even though they are contained within the
same class. Judges whims or personal preferences would be minimised and a
semblance of uniform judging would be experienced between different shows.
This would have the additional benefit of making the National standing
results more respectable and much more representative. I have no problem
with
my car being closely scrutinised by an expert, however I would expect it to
be done on an equal basis by a well informed individual within a clearly
defined set of rules. I have no desire to enter my car into a political
arena
which is what I see exists presently. Now if I have managed to form these
opinions from your conversations, other potential exhibitors could have as
well. Radical changes will have to be made if you expect new blood to join
in
and participate. I hope you find this constructive

Bob.

Bob, Bob, Bob…

Anyone reading your posting must surely think that Concoursing is
all-so-serious, all the time. I assure you, it is not, and the judging
aspect is only part of the picture. There’s plenty of laughing, spinning of
tales, and sharing of ideas. There’s so much to see and learn and, even if a
few bad calls are made, the competition encourages continual improvement in
your car. I get a big kick out of it, in my own aloof sort of way…and,
trust me, I never would have thought I’d become interested in this stuff.

Perhaps we’d all benefit from more experienced judges, yes. On the other
hand, I’ll wager that neither you nor I are experts yet surely we could
learn something from each other, or see something in one another’s cars
which would otherwise be overlooked. That’s a big part of Concoursing.
Judges learn plenty from the contestants…you have an opportunity to be
part of the solution.

Rules? Yes, there an awful lot left to interpretation in the JCNA book.
But, have you ever been to a Corvette concours? Their rules are all but
carved in granite yet there’s still plenty of dissention----over the date
code on the headlight knob or the color of crayon used to write “OK” beneath
the right rear muffler.

Ok, you been listening to the grousing of some of us who have already been
there and done that. Well, hey, let’s face it, get a group together and
they’ll always find something to complain about, eh ? The most salient
issue, really, is that, despite our complaints about the faults within the
system, we keep coming back for more ! So, really, how bad can it be ? I
don’t know how many JCNA members enter concours events but I’d imagine it’s
several hundred. Would several hundred of us go thru all this if it was
agony and torture? I don’t think so !, rather than base your decision solely
on our grumblings, wouldn’t it be better to try it a couple times and then
decide ?

Additionally, your blanket dismissal of the JCNA Concours without having
actually given it a try isn’t really fair. If you read postings from a half
dozen listers complaining about asparagus, would you swear it off forever or
wait until you had tasted it yourself ?

So, try some asparagus and then tell us what you don’t like about it.
:slight_smile:

Cheers,
Your friend,
Doug Dwyer
Longview, Washington USA

I originally subscribed to the Concours list because I had intentions of
participating in the concours events next year. I am about to
unsub*scribe
and
thought that maybe my comments could be of some value to you before I do
so.
I have spent many thousands of dollars restoring my Sovereign back to it’s
original condition. I have taken considerable care to obtain original
equipment and at the same time I have made some changes but these are all
internal items designed to improve the overall efficiency of the engine.
Improved ECU, Air flow meter and Air filter. Now the goodies. I have been
reading your discussions about the rules and you have managed to convince
me
and please correct me if I am wrong that the rules as they stand, to be
polite, are very loose and just about anything goes. On top of this they
are
all, subject to interpretation by each individual Judge. The Judges that
are
used do not have to prove their qualification nor are they expected to
meet
any particular standard. Maybe I am totally off base with this suggestion
but
this sounds to me more like a, who you know situation more than what car
you
own. You have spent much energy discussing the splitting of classes.
Surely
the area of discussion should have been on how to redefine the rule book
eliminating or at least reducing the variances and setting up a system to
qualify your Judges. When using define rules and qualified Judges the best
car will always rise to the top regardless of engine size. Both 6 and 12
cylinder cars and different series would be judged accordingly within the
boundaries of their own set specifications. In other words they would both
start on an equal playing field even though they are contained within the
same class. Judges whims or personal preferences would be minimised and a
semblance of uniform judging would be experienced between different shows.
This would have the additional benefit of making the National standing
results more respectable and much more representative. I have no problem
with
my car being closely scrutinised by an expert, however I would expect it
to----- Original Message -----
From: Peddlarbob@aol.com
be done on an equal basis by a well informed individual within a clearly
defined set of rules. I have no desire to enter my car into a political
arena
which is what I see exists presently. Now if I have managed to form these
opinions from your conversations, other potential exhibitors could have as
well. Radical changes will have to be made if you expect new blood to join
in
and participate. I hope you find this constructive

Bob.

Mark Stephenson wrote:

In other words if you are missing a widget on your car and someone else
isn’t, and the judge doesn’t know a widget is supposed to be there, then you
won’t get the deduction. The reverse is true to the benefit of the other
guy, but your score isn’t affected.

Actually, the most likely occurrence is that you’ll pick up some sort of
deduction on your widget while the car missing the widget won’t since
there’s nothing to deduct.

I think the biggest complaints you’ve heard most people make is not
unfairness at a particular show, but the inconsistency among shows.

Mark seems to delight in making these statements that lead me to get myself
into trouble! The inconsistency is not just between shows, but within the
different judging teams at a given show. To illustrate, let me cite an
actual example. This year, I showed my XJ6C in both Class C11 and C18 at
one show. It happened to be a show headed by an unusually concientious
Chief Judge that holds several judge training sessions each year and each
class was judged by a different team. When I compared the judging sheets, I
found that only 10% of the deductions were common between the two teams.
Each team took some multi-point deductions for items which the other team
took no deductions at all on. Neither team took any authenticity deductions
at all. Heaven help those showing where the judging is taken less
seriously! The scores can easily vary by more than two full points from
show to show or from team to team at a given show. Even the rankings within
a given class may sometimes be suspect - I’ve seen many cars that are very
authentic lose to less authentic cars.

Does that squelch the fun of concours? Only if you let it. Just don’t take
the scores too seriously. It’s a lot like figure skating’s “artistic
impression” scores.
-Steve A.
'67 E Type Coupe
'76 XJ6C
'91 XJ40

I also have a love / hate relationship with Concours judging and I’m
writing this as I get ready to go to our club judging training as our
concours is last week…

bottom line, enter for the fun have fun and enjoy the cars and the people.
Restore your car and improve it so that you can enjoy it, not to win.

It will be nearly impossible for clubs to have judges who know each inside
out, especailly as Mark pointed out, since you can’t judge a class you
entered.

out of 100 members, we have less than 10 volunteers to judge and out of
those 10, only 3 are qualified. means they’ve been doing this for about 5
years. We’ll get a handful of judges from the other clubs but that’s it. And
it’s more or less the same everywhere, in september one of our members, the
most qualified, was given the largest class at a neighboring concours. After
close to 3 hours in the sun, he was tired and fed up and you can’t expect
this not to affect his judging. same problem, not enough help.

There is no solution beyond establishing detailed judging guides and having
more members getting in the process…

I often in enter in display only this way I stil enjy the show but don’t
have to spend as much time getting the car ready. If I go in driven, I try
no to care about the result, all you get is a piece of tin anyway !

Pascal----- Original Message -----
From: Peddlarbob@aol.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 4:17 PM
Subject: [concours] Re: Concours Participation

(bounced due to taboo words - admin)

I originally subscribed to the Concours list because I had intentions of
participating in the concours events next year. I am about to
unsub*scribe
and
thought that maybe my comments could be of some value to you before I do
so.
I have spent many thousands of dollars restoring my Sovereign back to it’s
original condition. I have taken considerable care to obtain original
equipment and at the same time I have made some changes but these are all
internal items designed to improve the overall efficiency of the engine.
Improved ECU, Air flow meter and Air filter. Now the goodies. I have been
reading your discussions about the rules and you have managed to convince
me
and please correct me if I am wrong that the rules as they stand, to be
polite, are very loose and just about anything goes. On top of this they
are
all, subject to interpretation by each individual Judge. The Judges that
are
used do not have to prove their qualification nor are they expected to
meet
any particular standard. Maybe I am totally off base with this suggestion
but
this sounds to me more like a, who you know situation more than what car
you
own. You have spent much energy discussing the splitting of classes.
Surely
the area of discussion should have been on how to redefine the rule book
eliminating or at least reducing the variances and setting up a system to
qualify your Judges. When using define rules and qualified Judges the best
car will always rise to the top regardless of engine size. Both 6 and 12
cylinder cars and different series would be judged accordingly within the
boundaries of their own set specifications. In other words they would both
start on an equal playing field even though they are contained within the
same class. Judges whims or personal preferences would be minimised and a
semblance of uniform judging would be experienced between different shows.
This would have the additional benefit of making the National standing
results more respectable and much more representative. I have no problem
with
my car being closely scrutinised by an expert, however I would expect it
to
be done on an equal basis by a well informed individual within a clearly
defined set of rules. I have no desire to enter my car into a political
arena
which is what I see exists presently. Now if I have managed to form these
opinions from your conversations, other potential exhibitors could have as
well. Radical changes will have to be made if you expect new blood to join
in
and participate. I hope you find this constructive

Bob.

In a message dated 11/2/01 9:48:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, DWYERD@msn.com
writes:

Additionally, your blanket dismissal of the JCNA Concours without having
actually given it a try isn’t really fair. If you read postings from a half
dozen listers complaining about asparagus, would you swear it off forever
or
wait until you had tasted it yourself ?

Doug. Not totally true. True I did not exhibit a car but I have attended 3
as a spectator. I have seen the trailer queens come in and I have heard the
bitching because some people did not get the score they thought they
deserved. What shocked me the most was at one I was invited to be an
assistant Judge. I don’t have any qualifications to do that and politely
declined. Why we are on that subject I will say that had I accepted, the car
that won that section would not have been placed higher than 5th on my card
but the owner was allowed to argue his point in the judges tent.
Under the present system and in particular reference to the rules. Anybody
that undertakes the horrendous job of restoring a car has no hard and fast
rules to work within. I have selected to use all the items on my car that I
know for a fact were available at the time my car was produced. Now is my car
correct? the rules don’t specifically say yes or no. At least with the
corvettes the rules help you in an endeavour such as my example. Strict rules
can be a pain but at least you know what you are aiming at. The Jaguar
concours rules are rather like finding your way in a dessert on a cloudy day
without a compass. You actually might end up somewhere but you are going to
be very thirsty (broke) when you get there, if in fact you don’t quit on the
way. Yes, I believe that Judges should be expected to know their stuff. There
is a vast amount of money involved in restoring these cars and an entrant has
every right to expect a minimum level of competence in the Judges. I also
will agree that Judges will still make errors, but with stricter rules and
better knowledgeable Judges these would be minimised. I have said to you
Doug, I can have just as much fun at the shows with my car in the display
section. I am sure I will still receive all the same compliments and
suggestions about the things I have missed or done wrong with my car.

Bob.

Bob,
You have to ask yourself just why is it that you have spent all those hours
restoring your car. If you are just doing it to get the nod of approval from
some concours judges, you are setting yourself up for disappointment and my
advice is to uns*b from the concours list and forget about all this
silliness. You must do this for yourself. Any recognition from others is
inconsequential. Owning a properly restored Jaguar is a reward in itself.
Now and then, there is someone at a show who chooses to be mad or
disappointed and they go around with a big frown. I always wonder why they
do it. I can stay at home and be miserable for free.

There are other reasons for doing this. I don’t restore my cars to have them
judged. I restore the cars because I enjoy restoring cars. Once I get them
done, I never really know what to do with them. I could drive them as daily
cars but they’re just so darn nice, that I hate to mess them up after doing
all that work myself. I could sell them but never get back what I have
invested even if you count my labor as free. I’ll let my kids sell them at
the auction after I’ve gone to the big junkyard in the sky. Showing them in
concours events is just the only thing I can think of to do with them.

Are there inconsistencies in the judging? Yes. Why? Because it is done by
people and people are not perfect, not always wise, and not always completely
impartial. Do I have fun? Oh yeah. Not because I win but because I get to
spend the day with no responsibilities talking with friends and people who
share my interests. It’s my “perfect world” where everyone is interested in
old Jags and nobody talks about work. This year at the Tulsa concours, I
left without ever finding out what my score was. I had to hurry back to St.
Louis for the All British car show the next day. They still have my trophy.
I don’t care because the score and the trophy are not what it’s all about.
It’s supposed to be a fun hobby (as opposed to work). Don’t take it too
seriously.

If you truly want the system to improve, don’t complain from the sidelines.
Get involved. Download the JCNA Concours Rule Book and Judges Guide or order
it from them if you haven’t already, and study it. If JCNA needs better
judges, become a judge. Show your car. You have enough knowledge to judge a
car. You certainly know what it takes to restore one. At our club, we have
new judges tour with an experienced crew for a few shows before we give them
a score sheet. Then we have them judge the exterior. It is easier and
really just a beauty contest. You don’t have to be an expert on the model to
recognize a paint chip or poor panel fit. When they have a few shows under
their belt, they can move on to interior and ultimately, engine and boot.
Our engine and boot judges are also “team leaders” who oversee the judging
done by the other two and can offer advice. A three man team, working
together (with one or two from out of town) is the best way that we’ve found
to ensure fairness. Ironically, do-it-yourselfers like you are usually more
lenient when judging than checkbook restorers. I think they know how much
blood, sweat and tears went into the work and they are more forgiving.

That’s just my $.02 I give in the spirit of friendship and hopes that is
will help you enjoy your hobby a little more. Isn’t that what we’re all
about?

Kind regards,
John Testrake
president, Jaguar Assoc. of Greater St. Louis
84XJ6 (just behind Gregory’s beauty in the international standings)
76XJ12 (not quite ready for prime time)

In a message dated 11/3/01 7:02:38 AM Central Standard Time,
Peddlarbob@aol.com writes:

Doug. Not totally true. True I did not exhibit a car but I have attended
3
as a spectator. I have seen the trailer queens come in and I have heard
the
bitching because some people did not get the score they thought they
deserved. What shocked me the most was at one I was invited to be an
assistant Judge. I don’t have any qualifications to do that and politely
declined. Why we are on that subject I will say that had I accepted, the
car

that won that section would not have been placed higher than 5th on my
card
but the owner was allowed to argue his point in the judges tent.
Under the present system and in particular reference to the rules. Anybody
that undertakes the horrendous job of restoring a car has no hard and fast
rules to work within. I have selected to use all the items on my car that
I
know for a fact were available at the time my car was produced. Now is my
car
correct? the rules don’t specifically say yes or no. At least with the
corvettes the rules help you in an endeavour such as my example. Strict
rules
can be a pain but at least you know what you are aiming at. The Jaguar
concours rules are rather like finding your way in a dessert on a cloudy
day

without a compass. You actually might end up somewhere but you are going
to
be very thirsty (broke) when you get there, if in fact you don’t quit on
the>
way. Yes, I believe that Judges should be expected to know their stuff.
There
is a vast amount of money involved in restoring these cars and an entrant
has
every right to expect a minimum level of competence in the Judges. I also
will agree that Judges will still make errors, but with stricter rules and
better knowledgeable Judges these would be minimised. I have said to you
Doug, I can have just as much fun at the shows with my car in the display
section. I am sure I will still receive all the same compliments and
suggestions about the things I have missed or done wrong with my car.

Bob.

Hi, Mark -

You’re right on the money concerning the knowledge of the various
judges. We all have our own experiences and knowledge base to use, and
these, by definition, differ. Judging is an objective measure of a
subjective matter, and we tend to overemphasize ‘originality’ and doing
things ‘by the numbers’ in areas where Jaguar is clearly inconsistent. For
example, my old 1966 Mark 10 Saloon had a cooling system, installed at the
factory, that was at variance with all pictures and parts books I ever
found. Though the second owner, it still had all its original
Jaguar-supplied (and marked) hoses, so I know it wasn’t a retrofit, yet al
attempts to secure replacements by type and model from various East-coast
dealers always met with non-fitting parts, requiring or necessitating bring
in the old parts in for matching, by size or by number. For economy, I
finally wound up using generic flexible replacement aftermarket hoses! At
the time, when I did participate in local concours, occasional mention was
made of the lack of compliance with the parts book variants (two were
identified, then), but no points were ever deducted (this was back in the
late sixties and early seventies). I’m sure that similar perceived
problems exist for other models within the marque, as Jaguar’s use of a
variety of ‘cottage industry’ bits and pieces suppliers is well known and
established! Sometimes there is no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, just an acceptable
solution set!

Still within a relative heat wave here in PA (unseasonable mid-eighties!).

Stay well!

Thanks for the return of the jack!

Larry Schear
Twin Cam, Inc.

At 10:47 PM 11/2/2001 -0700, you wrote:>Bob,

As you and I have had many a lengthy discussion, let me give you my concours
impressions. It’s not a popularity contest or a who-you-know thing, at least
not at the shows I’ve attended. It’s just that there is a notable lack of
knowledge about the cars among many of the judges. There’s not much you can
do about that since judges can’t judge a class where they have an entry, and
what they have entered is usually what they know the most about. So the
people most knowledgeable about a particular model often can’t judge that
class. What’s important to remember is that what judges don’t know can only
help your score.

In other words if you are missing a widget on your car and someone else
isn’t, and the judge doesn’t know a widget is supposed to be there, then you
won’t get the deduction. The reverse is true to the benefit of the other
guy, but your score isn’t affected. If the widget is large enough, a sharp
judge will notice that one car has it and one doesn’t, and question the
owner of the car with the missing widget. Any unfairness comes when your car
has more widgets than someone else’s doesn’t and the judge doesn’t catch it,
but usually if there are a few missing parts on one car, the judge will
catch at least some of them tilting the scales in your favor.

Cleanliness and condition are things anyone can spot, so make sure your car
is clean and detailed inside and out. If your car is spotless, paint is
flawless, body panels are straight, interior is immaculate, the mechanicals
work, then it comes down to who has more of the bits. If you are missing
nothing, then you’ll receive 100 points, no matter where you show the car.

If you have any manuals on the car, bring them with you, in case there’s a
dispute about something that belongs there and isn’t or vice versa. If you
can show them written or pictorial proof that things are the way they should
be, there won’t be a deduction.

I think the biggest complaints you’ve heard most people make is not
unfairness at a particular show, but the inconsistency among shows. One set
of judges at one show will find something missing and the next set at a
different show won’t, but they’ll find something else. A car might receive a
99.92 at one show and a 99.42, if a sharp judge catches more things missing
at another. If all the same cars are at both shows and there is as little as
a tenth of a point difference between the two cars, chances are excellent
that the same car would get first place.

Don’t get too down on judging. It’s not an exact science and never will be.
Short of paying full-time staff to familiarize themselves with a particular
model and then flying them all over the country from JCNA to the different
concours, we’ll have to rely on local talent. You can’t make the
requirements too stringent for them, or you won’t have any judges. So you
have to sacrifice some quality and accuracy for people to do the judging.

“Mark 1” Mark Stephenson (marks@jaguarot.com)
1952 XK120 Roadster S673129
1958 Mark 1 / 1984 XJ6 / 1985,6,7 XJ6 VDP
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona (Internet Service Provider, TV & Phone | Sparklight)

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org
[mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]On Behalf Of Peddlarbob@aol.com
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 2:18 PM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [concours] Re: Concours Participation

(bounced due to taboo words - admin)

I originally suscribed to the Concours list because I had intentions of
participating in the concours events next year. I am about to unsu
scribe
and
thought that maybe my comments could be of some value to you before I do so.
I have spent many thousands of dollars restoring my Sovereign back to it’s
original condition. I have taken considerable care to obtain original
equipment and at the same time I have made some changes but these are all
internal items designed to improve the overall efficiency of the engine.
Improved ECU, Air flow meter and Air filter. Now the goodies. I have been
reading your discussions about the rules and you have managed to convince me
and please correct me if I am wrong that the rules as they stand, to be
polite, are very loose and just about anything goes. On top of this they are
all, subject to interpretation by each individual Judge. The Judges that are
used do not have to prove their qualification nor are they expected to meet
any particular standard. Maybe I am totally off base with this suggestion
but
this sounds to me more like a, who you know situation more than what car you
own. You have spent much energy discussing the splitting of classes. Surely
the area of discussion should have been on how to redefine the rule book
eliminating or at least reducing the variances and setting up a system to
qualify your Judges. When using define rules and qualified Judges the best
car will always rise to the top regardless of engine size. Both 6 and 12
cylinder cars and different series would be judged accordingly within the
boundaries of their own set specifications. In other words they would both
start on an equal playing field even though they are contained within the
same class. Judges whims or personal preferences would be minimised and a
semblance of uniform judging would be experienced between different shows.
This would have the additional benefit of making the National standing
results more respectable and much more representative. I have no problem
with
my car being closely scrutinised by an expert, however I would expect it to
be done on an equal basis by a well informed individual within a clearly
defined set of rules. I have no desire to enter my car into a political
arena
which is what I see exists presently. Now if I have managed to form these
opinions from your conversations, other potential exhibitors could have as
well. Radical changes will have to be made if you expect new blood to join
in
and participate. I hope you find this constructive

Bob.

Bob,

I know this is hard to believe, but I agree with you. I have my horror
stories, too. For example, a few years ago, a guy showed up with what at
first glance was a beautiful 3.5L DHC (Mark IV). It was a trailer queen, and
the DHC had never been dropped in it’s life. A sharp-eyed judge noticed that
one of the “S” hinges was upside-down. Deduction. When we asked the man to
turn on his wipers (back in the days when the wipers were supposed to be
checked, but we were one of the few clubs who actually followed the rules)
he objected, but we cradled the wipers in our hands. The vacuum motor was
mounted wrong and the wiper wanted to go over the top of the car rather than
across the window. Big deduction. He had received 99.9+ in all the shows he
had entered, and we were about to give him a 98 something.

The guy was irate. He swore never to attend another JCCA concours. He
probably told a bunch of people in his home club and they probably will
never show up either. A friend of his who entered got up at the awards
banquet and rambled on about judging in the East vs. judging in the West,
and how a western car was never going to win a championship because the
eastern cars were judged so much more easily. The concours was such a
catastrophe that the member so had pretty much put the show together vowed
never to run another concours again. No one else wanted to do it the
following year; it was the only year in recorded history that we didn’t have
a JCNA-sanctioned concours.

Steve,

I’ll agree with what you said, too, that there are discrepancies between
judging teams, but usually that isn’t a factor because it is rare that a car
is judged in two classes at the same show. As to the unnamed widget, they
might try to deduct for the widget, but you have to initial the judges sheet
so that you are aware that the component is being considered non-authentic.
That gives you the opportunity to go through your pile of Jaguar literature
and manuals that you brought just in case to show that the part is
authentic.

So the problem is obvious. What’s the solution. I honestly don’t know
because everything that I can think of requires either a lot of cash, or a
lot of time, or both. How do judges at the Corvette Club get to be so
knowledgeable? Does the Corvette have scores of concours each year or just a
few? The Healey club apparently only has one huge competition per year.

I have often wondered about the wisdom of the ten minute rule for judging.
Three (often semi-knowledgeable) people judge a car and they have ten
minutes to do it: one - interior, one - exterior, one under bonnet, and
everyone for a minute or so checking the mechanicals. Even if they knew
everything about the car could three people spot twenty missing items in
less than nine minutes at the same time checking for all the visual, prep,
and cleanliness deductions? Interior and exterior judges could do that, I
think, but the under-the-lid guy, no way.

We were one of the last clubs to not have a time limit on our judging. We
missed the directive or something. The three judge teams chatted among
themselves verifying if items were correct or not. We often would ask the
more knowledgeable among us for their thoughts. We would check one car then
check the others and compare what we saw, to determine if something was
extra or missing. We looked for incorrect hose clamps buried deep in the
bowels of the engine bay. One trailer queen XK showed up with cad-plated
bolts everywhere. Jaguar never cad-plated XK bolts so we deducted for every
single one. The owners were aghast. They listed every concours and all the
knowledgeable people who had judged their car and maintained that they had
never been dinged for cad-plated bolts. They let their membership lapse at
the end of that year. We took pride in finding just about everything that
was deductible on a car. Bottom line: The scores we awarded had probably
double the deductions of the scores anywhere else and you could count the
number of out-of-state people who showed up on two fingers or less.

So we learned. Judging in an accurate and detailed manner takes a lot of
time, hurts your attendance, generates ill will toward your club, and, given
current JCNA policies, gains you absolutely nothing. No one comes to you the
next year and congratulates you for finding faults no one else found.
There’s no award for accuracy.

Now we judge like everyone else – Three judges (two for driven), ten
minutes, no caucusing, run through the sheet, mark down what you see and
move on to the next car at the end of ten minutes. If you don’t know about
something, or even if you think it may be incorrect, you don’t deduct for it
unless you are sure. Having done both techniques, the question really boils
down to: Do you want to have fun or do you want to work. We used to spend
literally four hours judging forty cars. That’s four hours we couldn’t sit
by our cars and enjoy cool beverages, it’s four hours we couldn’t revel in
the adulation showered upon us for our beautiful cars, it’s four hours we
couldn’t talk about Jags. Now, we do the same number of cars in about half
the time, but the scores are higher, because we undoubtedly miss stuff.
Higher scores mean more cars, more cars mean more club dollars, more cars
mean a better show. The loser is accurate judging, but that’s the way the
system is stacked.

So, despite the transparency of judging, Doug has the right idea. You go and
you have fun. At the end of the day, the bottom line is, did the best car in
each class get first, the second best get second, and so on. I’d bet that at
any given show, less than 10% of the cars are seriously competing for
national or regional points. The other 90+ percent are there to have fun and
for them, the trophy at the end means far more than points.

Go to the shows and fun. Display or judged doesn’t really matter. I like
judged because it’s like the difference between watching a game and watching
while having a friendly wager riding on the outcome. A tipped ball or an
unlucky bounce enters the same uncertainty into the equation as the
knowledge of the judges in your class.

In the grand scheme of things a car (even a Jaguar) is really
inconsequential. The whole point of ownership, repair, prep, and maintenance
is to escape from things of consequence. Get too serious and you’ve defeated
the purpose.

“Mark 1” Mark Stephenson (@Mark_Stephenson2)
1952 XK120 Roadster S673129
1958 Mark 1 / 1984 XJ6 / 1985,6,7 XJ6 VDP
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona (www.cableone.net/jcca)

Guys -

We Yanks have it easy! The Aussies judge the UNDERSIDE of the car, too,
with mirrors and oil-drip pans! Don’t try to buy recognition and
honor. Enjoy the cars for what they were intended - to drive, with “Grace,
Space, and Pace!” (or have I the order wrong?)

Larry Schear
Twin Cam, Inc.

At 03:37 PM 11/3/2001 -0700, you wrote:>Bob,

I know this is hard to believe, but I agree with you. I have my horror
stories, too. For example, a few years ago, a guy showed up with what at
first glance was a beautiful 3.5L DHC (Mark IV). It was a trailer queen, and
the DHC had never been dropped in it’s life. A sharp-eyed judge noticed that
one of the “S” hinges was upside-down. Deduction. When we asked the man to
turn on his wipers (back in the days when the wipers were supposed to be
checked, but we were one of the few clubs who actually followed the rules)
he objected, but we cradled the wipers in our hands. The vacuum motor was
mounted wrong and the wiper wanted to go over the top of the car rather than
across the window. Big deduction. He had received 99.9+ in all the shows he
had entered, and we were about to give him a 98 something.

The guy was irate. He swore never to attend another JCCA concours. He
probably told a bunch of people in his home club and they probably will
never show up either. A friend of his who entered got up at the awards
banquet and rambled on about judging in the East vs. judging in the West,
and how a western car was never going to win a championship because the
eastern cars were judged so much more easily. The concours was such a
catastrophe that the member so had pretty much put the show together vowed
never to run another concours again. No one else wanted to do it the
following year; it was the only year in recorded history that we didn’t have
a JCNA-sanctioned concours.

Steve,

I’ll agree with what you said, too, that there are discrepancies between
judging teams, but usually that isn’t a factor because it is rare that a car
is judged in two classes at the same show. As to the unnamed widget, they
might try to deduct for the widget, but you have to initial the judges sheet
so that you are aware that the component is being considered non-authentic.
That gives you the opportunity to go through your pile of Jaguar literature
and manuals that you brought just in case to show that the part is
authentic.

So the problem is obvious. What’s the solution. I honestly don’t know
because everything that I can think of requires either a lot of cash, or a
lot of time, or both. How do judges at the Corvette Club get to be so
knowledgeable? Does the Corvette have scores of concours each year or just a
few? The Healey club apparently only has one huge competition per year.

I have often wondered about the wisdom of the ten minute rule for judging.
Three (often semi-knowledgeable) people judge a car and they have ten
minutes to do it: one - interior, one - exterior, one under bonnet, and
everyone for a minute or so checking the mechanicals. Even if they knew
everything about the car could three people spot twenty missing items in
less than nine minutes at the same time checking for all the visual, prep,
and cleanliness deductions? Interior and exterior judges could do that, I
think, but the under-the-lid guy, no way.

We were one of the last clubs to not have a time limit on our judging. We
missed the directive or something. The three judge teams chatted among
themselves verifying if items were correct or not. We often would ask the
more knowledgeable among us for their thoughts. We would check one car then
check the others and compare what we saw, to determine if something was
extra or missing. We looked for incorrect hose clamps buried deep in the
bowels of the engine bay. One trailer queen XK showed up with cad-plated
bolts everywhere. Jaguar never cad-plated XK bolts so we deducted for every
single one. The owners were aghast. They listed every concours and all the
knowledgeable people who had judged their car and maintained that they had
never been dinged for cad-plated bolts. They let their membership lapse at
the end of that year. We took pride in finding just about everything that
was deductible on a car. Bottom line: The scores we awarded had probably
double the deductions of the scores anywhere else and you could count the
number of out-of-state people who showed up on two fingers or less.

So we learned. Judging in an accurate and detailed manner takes a lot of
time, hurts your attendance, generates ill will toward your club, and, given
current JCNA policies, gains you absolutely nothing. No one comes to you the
next year and congratulates you for finding faults no one else found.
There’s no award for accuracy.

Now we judge like everyone else – Three judges (two for driven), ten
minutes, no caucusing, run through the sheet, mark down what you see and
move on to the next car at the end of ten minutes. If you don’t know about
something, or even if you think it may be incorrect, you don’t deduct for it
unless you are sure. Having done both techniques, the question really boils
down to: Do you want to have fun or do you want to work. We used to spend
literally four hours judging forty cars. That’s four hours we couldn’t sit
by our cars and enjoy cool beverages, it’s four hours we couldn’t revel in
the adulation showered upon us for our beautiful cars, it’s four hours we
couldn’t talk about Jags. Now, we do the same number of cars in about half
the time, but the scores are higher, because we undoubtedly miss stuff.
Higher scores mean more cars, more cars mean more club dollars, more cars
mean a better show. The loser is accurate judging, but that’s the way the
system is stacked.

So, despite the transparency of judging, Doug has the right idea. You go and
you have fun. At the end of the day, the bottom line is, did the best car in
each class get first, the second best get second, and so on. I’d bet that at
any given show, less than 10% of the cars are seriously competing for
national or regional points. The other 90+ percent are there to have fun and
for them, the trophy at the end means far more than points.

Go to the shows and fun. Display or judged doesn’t really matter. I like
judged because it’s like the difference between watching a game and watching
while having a friendly wager riding on the outcome. A tipped ball or an
unlucky bounce enters the same uncertainty into the equation as the
knowledge of the judges in your class.

In the grand scheme of things a car (even a Jaguar) is really
inconsequential. The whole point of ownership, repair, prep, and maintenance
is to escape from things of consequence. Get too serious and you’ve defeated
the purpose.

“Mark 1” Mark Stephenson (marks@jaguarot.com)
1952 XK120 Roadster S673129
1958 Mark 1 / 1984 XJ6 / 1985,6,7 XJ6 VDP
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona (Internet Service Provider, TV & Phone | Sparklight)

Mark. Thank you for your rather long but very interesting reply. You have
put forward a very powerful argument which makes a lot of sense and is very
thought provoking. I was once a competitive swimmer and I had to train long
and hard to get where I got. When I won a race fair and square the
satisfaction was intense. If I won because the other guy got himself
disqualified, there was no feeling of elation at all, it was as if I had been
cheated out of a victory. When I lost, I held a great respect for the guy
that beat me because I knew how hard he had obviously trained to get to the
point of beating me. I was applying this same thought process to the
prospects of showing my car. You have opened up a whole other side for me to
consider. Thank you.

Bob.

Wow, I’ll have to go read my post again. :slight_smile: (I know, I do go on.)

As they say, competition can bring out the best in people, or it can bring
out the worst. You obviously fall in the first category.

Thanks for the kind words.

Mark-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org
[mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]On Behalf Of Peddlarbob@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 4:05 PM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [concours] Re: Concours Participation

Mark. Thank you for your rather long but very interesting reply. You have
put forward a very powerful argument which makes a lot of sense and is very
thought provoking. I was once a competitive swimmer and I had to train long
and hard to get where I got. When I won a race fair and square the
satisfaction was intense. If I won because the other guy got himself
disqualified, there was no feeling of elation at all, it was as if I had
been
cheated out of a victory. When I lost, I held a great respect for the guy
that beat me because I knew how hard he had obviously trained to get to the
point of beating me. I was applying this same thought process to the
prospects of showing my car. You have opened up a whole other side for me to
consider. Thank you.

Bob.

Bob

As a judge, I always try to be as fair as humanly possible, however my expertise
extends only to E types and XJS’s.
I would have to admit I could only judge your Sovereign based on interior and
exterior condition ,and NOT on any authenticy concerns. If I would run into an
authenticy question, I would either have to defer to a more knowledgeable judge
who know Sovereigns or I would just defer to the owner. Only if a judge has
definite knowledge of the model he is judging, should he challenge an authentic
question, in my opinion. I have seen E types with close numbers have very
different equipment due to what was available at the factory at the time of
manufacture. Don’t lose heart, and realize most judges are honest and they try
to be fair in their opinions. Come to Tucson and I guarantee you will have a
fun, pleasant experience.

Len Wheeler
JCSA

Peddlarbob@aol.com wrote:> (bounced due to taboo words - admin)

I originally subscribed to the Concours list because I had intentions of
participating in the concours events next year. I am about to unsub*scribe
and
thought that maybe my comments could be of some value to you before I do so.
I have spent many thousands of dollars restoring my Sovereign back to it’s
original condition. I have taken considerable care to obtain original
equipment and at the same time I have made some changes but these are all
internal items designed to improve the overall efficiency of the engine.
Improved ECU, Air flow meter and Air filter. Now the goodies. I have been
reading your discussions about the rules and you have managed to convince me
and please correct me if I am wrong that the rules as they stand, to be
polite, are very loose and just about anything goes. On top of this they are
all, subject to interpretation by each individual Judge. The Judges that are
used do not have to prove their qualification nor are they expected to meet
any particular standard. Maybe I am totally off base with this suggestion
but
this sounds to me more like a, who you know situation more than what car you
own. You have spent much energy discussing the splitting of classes. Surely
the area of discussion should have been on how to redefine the rule book
eliminating or at least reducing the variances and setting up a system to
qualify your Judges. When using define rules and qualified Judges the best
car will always rise to the top regardless of engine size. Both 6 and 12
cylinder cars and different series would be judged accordingly within the
boundaries of their own set specifications. In other words they would both
start on an equal playing field even though they are contained within the
same class. Judges whims or personal preferences would be minimised and a
semblance of uniform judging would be experienced between different shows.
This would have the additional benefit of making the National standing
results more respectable and much more representative. I have no problem
with
my car being closely scrutinised by an expert, however I would expect it to
be done on an equal basis by a well informed individual within a clearly
defined set of rules. I have no desire to enter my car into a political
arena
which is what I see exists presently. Now if I have managed to form these
opinions from your conversations, other potential exhibitors could have as
well. Radical changes will have to be made if you expect new blood to join
in
and participate. I hope you find this constructive

Bob.

I know this is hard to believe, but I agree with you. I have my horror
stories, too.

The guy was irate. He swore never to attend another JCCA concours. He
probably told a bunch of people in his home club and they probably will
never show up either.

Too bad for them.

A friend of his who entered got up at the awards
banquet and rambled on about judging in the East vs. judging in the West,
and how a western car was never going to win a championship because the
eastern cars were judged so much more easily.

How unsportsmanlike, eh? His father obviously never taught him “there’s a
time and a place for everything”. He has a lot of class. All second, and
spelled with a “K”.

The concours was such a
catastrophe that the member so had pretty much put the show together vowed
never to run another concours again. No one else wanted to do it the
following year; it was the only year in recorded history that we didn’t
have
a JCNA-sanctioned concours.

What a shame, but a good example of how the few can ruin things for the
many.

How do judges at the Corvette Club get to be so
knowledgeable? Does the Corvette have scores of concours each year or just
a
few? The Healey club apparently only has one huge competition per year.

Corvette concours contestants (clever, eh?) have an advantage in that the
details of Corvette manufacture were well documented by General Motors and
what wasn’t obviously documented has been researched to the nth degree. They
don’t have to contend with so many export variations, either.

I have often wondered about the wisdom of the ten minute rule for judging.

Ten minutes? We have a 15 minute limit up in this neck of the woods.

So we learned. Judging in an accurate and detailed manner takes a lot of
time, hurts your attendance, generates ill will toward your club, and,
given
current JCNA policies, gains you absolutely nothing. No one comes to you
the
next year and congratulates you for finding faults no one else found.
There’s no award for accuracy.

Good point. If nobody has fun then nobody will compete. No competetion means
fewer restored Jags, less shared knowledge, reduced comarderie…well, I
can’t say it any better than you did, Mark.

So, despite the transparency of judging, Doug has the right idea. You go
and
you have fun.

And remember to allow time for a quick nap while the others are feverishly
prepping their cars. An old phsycological trick…
Besides the fun, the real beauty of concoursing is that it forces you to
keep your car in tip-top shape, especially important to the likes of me who
own but one Jaguar.

At the end of the day, the bottom line is, did the best car in

each class get first, the second best get second, and so on.

Bingo ! You’ve hit it, Mark.

In the grand scheme of things a car (even a Jaguar) is really
inconsequential. The whole point of ownership, repair, prep, and
maintenance
is to escape from things of consequence. Get too serious and you’ve
defeated
the purpose.

Wonderful perspective. Sally, a drink for Mark…and put it on my tab.

Cheers,
Doug----- Original Message -----
From: “Mark Stephenson” marks@jaguarot.com