[concours] Re:

David,

Let me make sure I understand you correctly, you feel that completely
original should not be judged at all and that there is no reason to
encourage entrants with partially original cars to retain those original
parts that may show some wear.

I believe there are two kinds of entrants, those who like to show very
original cars and don’t want it nit picked apart and those who have
spectacular cars with some original components and want to compete.

I too like Gary’s proposal but am concerned that entrants with partially
original cars will be pressured to remove such items as very nice
original interiors in an effort to compete with zero deduct for wear
brand new interiors.

Many people like to compete with cars that have beautiful new paint jobs
and the rest of the car being original. Why not also give them some
encouragement to retain these original components?

Someday we will all be gone and our great grandchildren will have very
few cars to look at to know what was actually original. Lets not
destroy components that are still serviceable!

Steve Kennedy

David Reilly wrote:>

We have been through this
ad nauseum’ for the past two years. The concensus of hundreds of ours
of deliberation, consideratiuon of many many possible scoring systems
and countless discussions was that it cannot be judged.

Something along the lines of Gary Georges proposal might work. It is
essentially what we have been saying for some time - and I like the
‘Growler’ idea - as long it is not ‘judged’ (he stoill has elements of
judging that will lead to the replacement of parts and
mis=representing originality of components), but who and how do we
determine the % original?? This has ALWAYS been the problem.

Perhaps non-commercial ‘expert’ judging committee, who just look at
the cars and award a level - similar to a judges choice or special
award committee does now.

Cheers,
David


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I have to agree with much of what David is saying. We’ve been down this road
and it turns out to be a bigger problem than it’s worth.

One possible way to solve this is to not have a points system at all. No
recording whatsoever.

Let’s have a class for those who want to keep their car original and let a
set of experienced judges look the cars over and place them. Mix them all up
in one class, or have several if it’s important. There will be no
scoresheets. Hence the owner won’t be able to fall into the bottomless pit
of replacing component after component in search of an ellusive pewter
plate. They won’t know why their car placed where it did or why the judges
voted the way they did, nor should it really matter. At the end of the day,
there will be one car that stands above the others in originality and
appearance for its age according to the judges, and that will be that.

The only flaw I see in this design is that you have no reference between a
car that scored at one show over another, as there is no points system. But
like the current system, the differences between judges at different venues
makes this someone moot anyway. If something needs to be worked out for a
regional award, maybe a number of points could be established based on raw
placing, vs. points of deduction. Or, maybe the interior, body or whatever
would be assigned a bulk number of points, without individual deducts so the
owner won’t charge off to clean up individual components, thus erasing the
cars character and patina.

Call me a cynic, but in any event, this will turn out as before with several
vested parties trying to pass off sows’ ears as silk purses.

SK
62 OTS

Steve Kennedy wrote:> David,

Let me make sure I understand you correctly, you feel that completely
original should not be judged at all and that there is no reason to
encourage entrants with partially original cars to retain those original
parts that may show some wear.

I believe there are two kinds of entrants, those who like to show very
original cars and don’t want it nit picked apart and those who have
spectacular cars with some original components and want to compete.

I too like Gary’s proposal but am concerned that entrants with partially
original cars will be pressured to remove such items as very nice
original interiors in an effort to compete with zero deduct for wear
brand new interiors.

Many people like to compete with cars that have beautiful new paint jobs
and the rest of the car being original. Why not also give them some
encouragement to retain these original components?

Someday we will all be gone and our great grandchildren will have very
few cars to look at to know what was actually original. Lets not
destroy components that are still serviceable!

Steve Kennedy

David Reilly wrote:

We have been through this
ad nauseum’ for the past two years. The concensus of hundreds of ours
of deliberation, consideratiuon of many many possible scoring systems
and countless discussions was that it cannot be judged.

Something along the lines of Gary Georges proposal might work. It is
essentially what we have been saying for some time - and I like the
‘Growler’ idea - as long it is not ‘judged’ (he stoill has elements of
judging that will lead to the replacement of parts and
mis=representing originality of components), but who and how do we
determine the % original?? This has ALWAYS been the problem.

Perhaps non-commercial ‘expert’ judging committee, who just look at
the cars and award a level - similar to a judges choice or special
award committee does now.

Cheers,
David


DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

John

They can drive clear across England in a day, I don’t relish driving my E across
the desert from Arizona to California just to enter a Concours. I drive my E’s
all throughout Arizona but out here where there can be hundreds of miles between
towns it is not prudent to take off with a 25 year old car. I agree with you
that driven should be that, driven but I think there has to be some consideration
for the distances involved.

Len Wheeler

owner-concours@jag-lovers.org wrote:> >Jeez. I didn’t expect such strong responses when I wrote my original post.

I appreciate the responses both on and off list.

I think we all agree that if someone wants to cheat no amount of rules
changes will stop them. We also agree that such rules would be difficult if
not impossible to enforce. My goal was to propose a rule change that makes
clear what most of us believe was the intention of the rule as currently
written.

The fact that I did manage to take first in class in no way lessens my
feeling that trailering or partial trailering in driven class competition
should not be allowed.

A British friend of mine tells me that in England all the cars are driven to
the concours.

Regards, John Walker

In a message dated 10/3/00 3:29:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
lenscats@flash.net writes:

<< there can be hundreds of miles between
towns it is not prudent to take off with a 25 year old car >>
For me, that adds to the adventure and the challenge. It is also very good
for the car, because you sure look after your maintenance items well if you
have to trust it.

Mike Moore
70 S1

Fine Mike come drive across the desert in your E in the summer. Look at an
atlas I 10 west of Blyth to Indio California.

MMoore8425@aol.com wrote:> In a message dated 10/3/00 3:29:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

@Len_Wheeler writes:

<< there can be hundreds of miles between
towns it is not prudent to take off with a 25 year old car >>
For me, that adds to the adventure and the challenge. It is also very good
for the car, because you sure look after your maintenance items well if you
have to trust it.

Mike Moore
70 S1