[concours] Speaking of Splitting Classes

David S Meck wrote:

well I grabbed my judging manual and yup, C-13 AND D-7 include all the
XJ40 and newer saloons. You may write to the powers that be and make a
case. I agree they should be separated. There is a separate class for
the XK-8 so you might try that as ammunition for the argument. Jagdoc

Yet another concours fracture? If I might make a comparison, about 100
total people qualified last year in Driven and Champion for North American
honors. There are 30 Classes. Regional awards complicate the plethora of
trophies.

In slalom, there were also about 100 people that qualified. In slalom there
are 12 classes. By my calculation, we ought to either create another 15 or
so slalom classes or consolidate concours down to about 12 Classes split
between the two divisions in order to maintain parity. My XJ6C on
stock-sized tires (due to concours rules) is at a significant disadvantage
against sedans on wider tire/rim combinations.

While we are at it, last year, in JCNA Rally, 18 people qualified in a
single class. If we maintained that same ratio for concours, we’d have 6
concours classes split between Driven and Champion. I guess that’d be “Open
Sports,” “Closed Sports,” and “Saloons” in each Division.

Anyone else sense a disparity here? It is no wonder that the other two JCNA
competition areas suffer. Just a thought - no advocacy of either splitting
or consolidating here, but it seems to me we have more than enough concours
classes already, particularly when we compare participation.

It’s pretty easy to see why - when the September/October Jaguar Journal
comes out, read what the various candidates claim as their qualifications.
-Steve A.
'67 E Type Coupe
'76 XJ6C
'91 XJ40

Ok how bout this…how bout if the whole class thing is dropped and all
models manufactured in a certain block of years would compete against
each other. Say all Jags manufactured between 1950 - 1959 would be one
class and so on of course that means that XJ40’s made in 1990 would be
competing against a 1999 XJ8! What a dilemma SO fewer classes mean
fewer trophies, more dissapointment for those that drove great
differences to come up empty handed, and less cost for the organizers to
provide the trophies. I guess it don’t get any better than this. JagdocOn Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:18:56 -0700 Steve Averill averill@earthlink.net writes: David S Meck wrote:

well I grabbed my judging manual and yup, C-13 AND D-7 include all
the
XJ40 and newer saloons. You may write to the powers that be and
make a
case. I agree they should be separated. There is a separate class
for
the XK-8 so you might try that as ammunition for the argument.
Jagdoc

Yet another concours fracture? If I might make a comparison, about
100
total people qualified last year in Driven and Champion for North
American
honors. There are 30 Classes. Regional awards complicate the
plethora of
trophies.

In slalom, there were also about 100 people that qualified. In
slalom there
are 12 classes. By my calculation, we ought to either create another
15 or
so slalom classes or consolidate concours down to about 12 Classes
split
between the two divisions in order to maintain parity. My XJ6C on
stock-sized tires (due to concours rules) is at a significant
disadvantage
against sedans on wider tire/rim combinations.

While we are at it, last year, in JCNA Rally, 18 people qualified in
a
single class. If we maintained that same ratio for concours, we’d
have 6
concours classes split between Driven and Champion. I guess that’d
be “Open
Sports,” “Closed Sports,” and “Saloons” in each Division.

Anyone else sense a disparity here? It is no wonder that the other
two JCNA
competition areas suffer. Just a thought - no advocacy of either
splitting
or consolidating here, but it seems to me we have more than enough
concours
classes already, particularly when we compare participation.

It’s pretty easy to see why - when the September/October Jaguar
Journal
comes out, read what the various candidates claim as their
qualifications.
-Steve A.
'67 E Type Coupe
'76 XJ6C
'91 XJ40


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Any change will have to be realistic… Already it will be probably very
hard to get any changes accepted…

To me it’s not just the cost of the trophies but the credibility. What good
is it to take first in class if you only have 2 cars competing in that
class.

When cars are similar, and data from previous years show there few entries
in their classes, I feel those classes should be grouped.

If there are a sufficient number of entries, then splitting a class in 2
based on engine ( 6 vs 12 ) could be done as long as there are enough
participation.

Pascal----- Original Message -----
From: “David S Meck” dmeck@juno.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: [concours] Speaking of Splitting Classes

Ok how bout this…how bout if the whole class thing is dropped and all
models manufactured in a certain block of years would compete against
each other. Say all Jags manufactured between 1950 - 1959 would be one
class and so on of course that means that XJ40’s made in 1990 would be
competing against a 1999 XJ8! What a dilemma SO fewer classes mean
fewer trophies, more dissapointment for those that drove great
differences to come up empty handed, and less cost for the organizers to
provide the trophies. I guess it don’t get any better than this. Jagdoc

What good

is it to take first in class if you only have 2 cars competing in that
class.

** ask the person who was not first.----- Original Message -----
From: “Pascal Gademer” pascal@pam-trading.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: [concours] Speaking of Splitting Classes

My point… better be second out of 5 than 2nd and last… :slight_smile:

I don’t know, I guess the benefits of this discussion if more participate is
that we get to see the same issue from different angles.

I was the only fourth place at the Orlando concours last month, all classes
had 3 cars or less, and the only one leaving without a trophy. I felt
better about it than when leaving other shows I’ve been too and got a trophy
out of 3 entrants in my class.

Pascal----- Original Message -----
From: “Bob Hotaling” BobHotaling@cfl.rr.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: [concours] Speaking of Splitting Classes

----- Original Message -----
From: “Pascal Gademer” <@Pascal_Gademer>
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: [concours] Speaking of Splitting Classes

What good

is it to take first in class if you only have 2 cars competing in that
class.

** ask the person who was not first.

Don’t feel bad… I think I won my class but they ran out of trophies and I
didn’t get one either… It’s the same as last year anyway :slight_smile:
Have you recovered from that weekend yet? Your wife okay?

You know one thing that has not been addressed…isn’t there a requirement
after so many wins in driven that the car has to be shown in a higher class?
Did I dream that?

Bob----- Original Message -----
From: “Pascal Gademer” pascal@pam-trading.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: [concours] Speaking of Splitting Classes

My point… better be second out of 5 than 2nd and last… :slight_smile:

I don’t know, I guess the benefits of this discussion if more participate
is
that we get to see the same issue from different angles.

I was the only fourth place at the Orlando concours last month, all
classes
had 3 cars or less, and the only one leaving without a trophy. I felt
better about it than when leaving other shows I’ve been too and got a
trophy
out of 3 entrants in my class.

Pascal

----- Original Message -----
From: “Bob Hotaling” <@Bob>
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: [concours] Speaking of Splitting Classes

----- Original Message -----
From: “Pascal Gademer” pascal@pam-trading.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: [concours] Speaking of Splitting Classes

What good

is it to take first in class if you only have 2 cars competing in that
class.

** ask the person who was not first.

yes, national winners in Driven must compete in Champion the following year.

It was pretty easy to recover from that week end considering what happened 3
days later, put everything into perspective… anyway the e-type’s hub was
fixed by Larry Ligas and I picked up the car 2 weeks later, the XKR is
almost done, I should have it next week.

Pascal----- Original Message -----
From: “Bob Hotaling” BobHotaling@cfl.rr.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: [concours] Speaking of Splitting Classes

Don’t feel bad… I think I won my class but they ran out of trophies and
I
didn’t get one either… It’s the same as last year anyway :slight_smile:
Have you recovered from that weekend yet? Your wife okay?

You know one thing that has not been addressed…isn’t there a requirement
after so many wins in driven that the car has to be shown in a higher
class?
Did I dream that?

Bob

Bob,

That’s exactly my point on the main and sub-classes and giving some
discretion to the local clubs for the splits. Fewer classes and more cars
per class makes it easier to estimate the number of trophies required.

Mark-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org
[mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]On Behalf Of Bob Hotaling
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 7:50 AM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [concours] Speaking of Splitting Classes

Don’t feel bad… I think I won my class but they ran out of trophies and I
didn’t get one either… It’s the same as last year anyway :slight_smile:
Have you recovered from that weekend yet? Your wife okay?

Can the trophies totally? Just do points and certificate? :)----- Original Message -----
From: “Mark Stephenson” marks@jaguarot.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 11:23 AM
Subject: RE: [concours] Speaking of Splitting Classes

Bob,

That’s exactly my point on the main and sub-classes and giving some
discretion to the local clubs for the splits. Fewer classes and more cars
per class makes it easier to estimate the number of trophies required.

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org
[mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]On Behalf Of Bob Hotaling
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 7:50 AM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [concours] Speaking of Splitting Classes

Don’t feel bad… I think I won my class but they ran out of trophies and
I
didn’t get one either… It’s the same as last year anyway :slight_smile:
Have you recovered from that weekend yet? Your wife okay?

yes, national winners in Driven must compete in Champion the following
year.

Please clarify. Would that be ALL Nat’l winners for a given driven
class…or only first place…or ?

Also, I thought that moving out of Driven and into Champion was simply
“encouraged”…not required (?)

Cheers,
Doug----- Original Message -----
From: “Pascal Gademer” pascal@pam-trading.com

I remember looking up the rule last year after finishing 2nd in D4 in 99 as
I was confused too but it’s only the 1st places Driven.

Yes they are “encouraged” but to make it encouraging enough they are
ineligible which means it is required… :-)>From the Concours Rules :

  1. Driven Division Championship Eligibility in Consecutive Years
    The nine First Place North American Driven Division championship Jaguars
    will be ineligible to be entered in the Driven Division by the same owners
    during the following Concours year. These First Place winners are encouraged
    to step up to the regular JCNA Champion Division competition.

Pascal

----- Original Message -----
From: “Doug Dwyer” DWYERD@email.msn.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: [concours] Speaking of Splitting Classes

----- Original Message -----
From: “Pascal Gademer” <@Pascal_Gademer>

yes, national winners in Driven must compete in Champion the following
year.

Please clarify. Would that be ALL Nat’l winners for a given driven
class…or only first place…or ?

Also, I thought that moving out of Driven and into Champion was simply
“encouraged”…not required (?)

Cheers,
Doug

Doug wrote: “Also, I thought that moving out of Driven and into Champion
was simply “encouraged”…not required (?)”++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I understood it was required. As it was explained to me you either move to
Championship class or sit out a year and then go back into driven. The
reasoning being that if you score high enough to win in driven you should be
able to compete in championship. I guess it is designed to ensure there
are fresh faces in the winner’s circle in driven class.

Regards, John