[concours] Texas cars scores, & C13

In a message dated 10/13/01 8:23:35 AM Central Daylight Time,
owner-concours-digest@jag-lovers.org writes:

<< Looking at the detailed report, you may have a point on the XJ40 / X300
isssue:

Out of 26 entrants in C13 so far ( many with just 1 score to date) only 7
are XJ40s
only 3 XJ40s in the top 10 and that include a 99.97 / 100 point Texas car in
1st. >>

Well, seems I may be in the center of the flap about the C13 controversy and
also the scores of cars from Texas. First issue, C13. We have been showing
a 1991 Vanden Plas in C13 for several years. It is not the average “Grocery
Getter” but is not a “Trailer Queen” either, the car is driven to all the
shows through rain, encounters with gravel trucks, road tar and all the other
crap you have to deal with when driving 250 to 350 miles to a show. We also
enter the car in shows in Oklahoma where we are considered Aliens. We have
experienced some stiff competition at some events, as many as seven cars in
C13, sometimes we are a one car class. Doesn’t seem to make any difference
on how our car is judged. We have received our LOWEST SCORES except for this
year on our home turf in Dallas where our “friends” were scoring the car.
But you never see those scores because they are always our lowest ones and
since we do many shows they drop off. We usually start a season getting
whacked, go home, take the car apart, second day air parts, put it back
together on Wednesday, hit the road on Thursday, detail the car in a motel
parking lot that night and all day Friday and Saturday morning, show it, come
home Sunday and wash the towels. Week after week. We go over the car with a
magnifying glass (literally) but we don’t always find everything. We just
got back from the Austin, Texas concours where we lost 0.1 for a slight
imperfection in the paint on a door jamb, a hairline flaw about 5/8" long by
1/64" wide. You don’t think they judge tough there? At the San Antonio
concours the judging was real tough, some national competitors got some
deductions that I question. The judges couldn’t find anything wrong with our
car and we got another 100 points and also “Best of Show” which is very
unusual with a relatively late model sedan especially when there was a Pebble
Beach candidate on the field, a recently restored 1939 SS.
1.) we are not scared of competing with new Jaguars 2.) the owners of the
new ones usually don’t know or care to play by the rules 3) they probably
won’t make three shows anyway or even show it again. In four years of
showing our car in C13 we have only been up against the same car twice to the
best of my knowledge. 4) the only dispensation that I have ever figured out
that we have been allowed is that we have not been deducted for minor rock
chips that I have repaired. The judges at the Texas shows WILL deduct for
those items on a “Trailer Queen” frame - off- restored car. With Vengenance.
It’s amost brutal at times, some of the entrants want their score sheets torn
up (I’ve seen it happen). I am not concerned with C13 being changed to limit
the new X300’s from entering, bring them on.

Regarding the disproportianate number of Jaguars receiving national tilles in
JCNA competition from Texas, these are very seriously prepared cars, most of
them have been shown many times and have paid their dues, gotten their score
beaten up, back to the drawing board & so forth. Many buck$ and sweat later
they are back on the field, trying for a better score.

      That is more than I should have said but it is the truth

                                David Nichols

We also enter the car in shows in Oklahoma where we are considered Aliens.

Dave, folks that come all the way up from Texas to enter our show are not
considered Aliens. The more correct nomenclature for those from Texas is
“furriners”!!

(BTW, I’ve seen your car and judged the paint on that rascal, and it is an
excellent example of how to prepare for a show.)

With tongue firmly in cheek,
Steve Houtari
Editor, Central Oklahoma Jaguar Assoc.
OKC----- Original Message -----
From: Egan8@aol.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 8:39 PM
Subject: [concours] Texas cars scores, & C13

David,

Excellent response and explanation. I don’t think anyone is in the middle
really, it’s just that it’s an interesting anomaly, and if the Texas groups
put that much time and effort into the cars, I think everyone will be
relieved. Nevertheless, there appear to be serious judging differences from
area to area and show to show, and I’m not just referring to the 100s in
Texas, and I’m also not referring to something being deducted in one show
and not another. No one is going to catch everything, no matter how
meticulous or knowledgeable they are, unless the car is ever so close to
perfect and the judge is an expert on that car.

I think the philosophy of judging needs to be standardized so that everyone
is on the same page and understands how closely to look and how much to
deduct.

I recall one discussion that raged a few years back in our club. The score
sheet indicates a minimum .1 deduction (out of a thousand) for paint chips.
If a guy has 25 chips do you count each one and deduct 2.5? That was the
strict interpretation of some. But there’s also a maximum deduction 7 pts.
for a Saloon. So that would be 70 chips.

No one does that, and our club was constantly being blasted for taking too
long to count the imperfections and deduct accordingly and for the lower
scores a car was getting compared to everywhere else. It was hurting the
turnout at our concours, so some snowbird members (people who come down here
in the summer and head back to the northlands in the winter), showed us how
they judge at concours that they attend. (We were a little isolated in
Phoenix back in the early nineties.)

The team looks at all the cars in their class and gets a feel for them,
which ones are the top notch ones, which ones are going for nation awards,
which ones are local cars. They really focus on the top ones and those
seriously campaigning. But we learned that in most other shows they just
look at the area and get a general feel. They don’t count the chips. They
look and see if there are some, how bad they are and take more of a
percentage based on a terrible car being the maximum deduction. Which way is
right? It seems the latter. What is a terrible car and how does one with
normal road wear compare? Again, it’s a judgment call. And there are no
guidelines anywhere.

Therefore, I proposed, on the JCNA website, that at least the chief judge at
every concours be tested and approved by JCNA. It could be done easily on
the JCNA web site. It would also be possible for regular judges to test
their skill, which might be kind of fun. Anyway, the chief judge would then
be charged with passing that philosophy and level of detail on to all the
judges at his concours. It’s not so much a matter of finding all the
non-authentic items as much as it is getting the most qualified judges for
each class and asking that they be as meticulous as they possibly can in the
allotted time. It’s getting everyone on the same page in terms of the
judging philosophy and establishing a national standard for the procedure.

I went into more detail on the JCNA site, and if you want to read the full
suggestion and an example from a similar group it’s at:

http://www.jcna.com/forums/jcna.cgi?read=566

“Mark 1” Mark Stephenson (@Mark_Stephenson2)
1952 XK120 Roadster S673129
1958 Mark 1 / 1984 XJ6 / 1985,6,7 XJ6 VDP
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona (www.cableone.net/jcca)-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org
[mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]On Behalf Of Egan8@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 6:39 PM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [concours] Texas cars scores, & C13

In a message dated 10/13/01 8:23:35 AM Central Daylight Time,
owner-concours-digest@jag-lovers.org writes:

<< Looking at the detailed report, you may have a point on the XJ40 / X300
isssue:

Out of 26 entrants in C13 so far ( many with just 1 score to date) only 7
are XJ40s
only 3 XJ40s in the top 10 and that include a 99.97 / 100 point Texas car
in
1st. >>

Well, seems I may be in the center of the flap about the C13 controversy and
also the scores of cars from Texas. First issue, C13. We have been showing
a 1991 Vanden Plas in C13 for several years. It is not the average “Grocery
Getter” but is not a “Trailer Queen” either, the car is driven to all the
shows through rain, encounters with gravel trucks, road tar and all the
other
crap you have to deal with when driving 250 to 350 miles to a show. We also
enter the car in shows in Oklahoma where we are considered Aliens. We have
experienced some stiff competition at some events, as many as seven cars in
C13, sometimes we are a one car class. Doesn’t seem to make any difference
on how our car is judged. We have received our LOWEST SCORES except for
this
year on our home turf in Dallas where our “friends” were scoring the car.
But you never see those scores because they are always our lowest ones and
since we do many shows they drop off. We usually start a season getting
whacked, go home, take the car apart, second day air parts, put it back
together on Wednesday, hit the road on Thursday, detail the car in a motel
parking lot that night and all day Friday and Saturday morning, show it,
come
home Sunday and wash the towels. Week after week. We go over the car with
a
magnifying glass (literally) but we don’t always find everything. We just
got back from the Austin, Texas concours where we lost 0.1 for a slight
imperfection in the paint on a door jamb, a hairline flaw about 5/8" long by
1/64" wide. You don’t think they judge tough there? At the San Antonio
concours the judging was real tough, some national competitors got some
deductions that I question. The judges couldn’t find anything wrong with
our
car and we got another 100 points and also “Best of Show” which is very
unusual with a relatively late model sedan especially when there was a
Pebble
Beach candidate on the field, a recently restored 1939 SS.
1.) we are not scared of competing with new Jaguars 2.) the owners of the
new ones usually don’t know or care to play by the rules 3) they probably
won’t make three shows anyway or even show it again. In four years of
showing our car in C13 we have only been up against the same car twice to
the
best of my knowledge. 4) the only dispensation that I have ever figured out
that we have been allowed is that we have not been deducted for minor rock
chips that I have repaired. The judges at the Texas shows WILL deduct for
those items on a “Trailer Queen” frame - off- restored car. With Vengenance.
It’s amost brutal at times, some of the entrants want their score sheets
torn
up (I’ve seen it happen). I am not concerned with C13 being changed to limit
the new X300’s from entering, bring them on.

Regarding the disproportianate number of Jaguars receiving national tilles
in
JCNA competition from Texas, these are very seriously prepared cars, most of
them have been shown many times and have paid their dues, gotten their score
beaten up, back to the drawing board & so forth. Many buck$ and sweat later
they are back on the field, trying for a better score.

      That is more than I should have said but it is the truth

                                David Nichols