[concours] The myth of older versus newer cars in a class

Well,

I waded through ALL the individual XJS placings during 2001. There were 81
JCNA entries in Champion and Driven for which the age of the car was given.
I found no significant difference in trend between the two divisions, so
I’ll just report on the combined total.

In 2001, there was not a single XJS at any reported show that was older
than 1982. A division into “pre HE” and “HE” would not have helped a single
entry this year.

In 2001, there were very large numbers of entries from model years 1990,
1991, 1995, and 1996. Division into a “mid-era” and “body-color-bumper”
class would result in a “mid-era” class twice as big as the “later” class.
So dividing the class would still result in some big classes.

The years that did BEST in placement were 1984 and 1989. 1991 did the worst.

I did several trendlines but they basically showed flat across the years.

The conclusion I reach is what I stated - new cars do NOT do any better
than old cars. If it’s desired to split the XJS class because of large
numbers of entries, I suggest that it’d be better to do it as “Open” and
“Closed” rather than by age. The data (and history of other classes) also
suggest that the number of entries should begin to drop in another couple
of years as the number of XJ Series entries is now dropping year by year.
Accordingly, any split should be made so that it can be undone when XJS
become less common at shows in about 4 or 5 years.

A graph of the combined data is at:

http://www.jcna.com/forums/jcna.cgi?read=561

Now, must I do the same for the post-XJ cars?
-Steve A.
'67 E Type Coupe
'76 XJ6C
'91 XJ40

Excellent work, Steve. I anxiously await your graphs of average scores by
concours and individual scores by the same cars at different shows. Perhaps
shows and cars should remain nameless, Show A, B, C… and Car 1, 2, 3…

“Mark 1” Mark Stephenson
1952 XK120 Roadster S673129
1958 Mark 1 / 1984 XJ6 / 1985,6,7 XJ6 VDP
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona (www.cableone.net/jcca)
Please note new e-mail: @Mark_Stephenson2-----Original Message-----
From: owner-concours@jag-lovers.org
[mailto:owner-concours@jag-lovers.org]On Behalf Of Steve Averill
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:38 PM
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [concours] The myth of older versus newer cars in a class

Well,

I waded through ALL the individual XJS placings during 2001. There were 81
JCNA entries in Champion and Driven for which the age of the car was given.
I found no significant difference in trend between the two divisions, so
I’ll just report on the combined total.

In 2001, there was not a single XJS at any reported show that was older
than 1982. A division into “pre HE” and “HE” would not have helped a single
entry this year.

In 2001, there were very large numbers of entries from model years 1990,
1991, 1995, and 1996. Division into a “mid-era” and “body-color-bumper”
class would result in a “mid-era” class twice as big as the “later” class.
So dividing the class would still result in some big classes.

The years that did BEST in placement were 1984 and 1989. 1991 did the worst.

I did several trendlines but they basically showed flat across the years.

The conclusion I reach is what I stated - new cars do NOT do any better
than old cars. If it’s desired to split the XJS class because of large
numbers of entries, I suggest that it’d be better to do it as “Open” and
“Closed” rather than by age. The data (and history of other classes) also
suggest that the number of entries should begin to drop in another couple
of years as the number of XJ Series entries is now dropping year by year.
Accordingly, any split should be made so that it can be undone when XJS
become less common at shows in about 4 or 5 years.

A graph of the combined data is at:

http://www.jcna.com/forums/jcna.cgi?read=561

Now, must I do the same for the post-XJ cars?
-Steve A.
'67 E Type Coupe
'76 XJ6C
'91 XJ40

I would be interested in how the newer cars placed in individual shows as
opposed to national. I see a lot of local X300 and newer at shows but not
ones from out of town. Could this deter local people with older XJ40’s from
coming because they can’t compete against a brand new car? Like should be
judged with like. Logical division with the differences in body style. But,
then again, if Texas is going to turn in 8(!?) 100 pt cars, no concours cars
with less than 99.96, then the whole national placing are kind of a joke
anyway. In our 28 years of concours we have had, I think, 2 100 pt. cars and
that was just recently. Both of which received 10 in at least three other
shows. How do these Texas cars stand up in other regions?
Jim
'92 XJ6

Jim

Individual concours scores are posted on the JCNA site, it’s easy to print
them .

Looking at the detailed report, you may have a point on the XJ40 / X300
isssue:

Out of 26 entrants in C13 so far ( many with just 1 score to date) only 7
are XJ40s
only 3 XJ40s in the top 10 and that include a 99.97 / 100 point Texas car in
1st.

As far as your second question, it’s hard to draw any conclusion on how to
texas cars stand up in other region. Few entrants go to concours out side
their regions. I have a detailed report of all scores so that it’s easy to
spot those who attended the JCC and their home region events and nearly all
entrants scored lower in Franklin than in their home regions, regardless of
where they came from.

Pascal----- Original Message -----
From: “Jim Baker” jbaker@netwalk.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: [concours] The myth of older versus newer cars in a class

I would be interested in how the newer cars placed in individual shows as
opposed to national. I see a lot of local X300 and newer at shows but not
ones from out of town. Could this deter local people with older XJ40’s
from
coming because they can’t compete against a brand new car? Like should be
judged with like. Logical division with the differences in body style.
But,
then again, if Texas is going to turn in 8(!?) 100 pt cars, no concours
cars
with less than 99.96, then the whole national placing are kind of a joke
anyway. In our 28 years of concours we have had, I think, 2 100 pt. cars
and
that was just recently. Both of which received 10 in at least three other
shows. How do these Texas cars stand up in other regions?
Jim
'92 XJ6

Pascal. I cannot accept that any car should get a 100 point score. If Texas
is awarding a score of this magnitude on a regular basis I agree it is
unreasonable and very suspect and therefore unbalances the national scores.
Bob.

Pascal Gademer writes:

I have a detailed report of all scores so that it’s easy to
spot those who attended the JCC and their home region events and nearly all
entrants scored lower in Franklin than in their home regions, regardless of
where they came from.

Interesting. Considering that Franklin had judges from most, if not all
regions, what conclusion would that lead you to draw? Perhaps the scores in
the various locations are a reflection of each Chief Judge, the way teams
are selected, and the instructions given to each judging team? That is
certainly consistent with my own experience. If true, it makes the current
method of determining North American placings even more suspect - you are
not talking about overall judging variations, but the reflection of the
policies of far fewer individuals. Just as in football, the best coaches
tend to do better even with less talent. In this case, we aren’t talking
about “goodness,” just “severity” which shouldn’t be construed as either
good or bad in itself.
-Steve A.
'67 E Type Coupe
'76 XJ6C
'91 XJ40

Now you have hit a topic of VERY heated discussion. But we won’t go
there ok? It is already evident that most cars entered in the concours
are in BETTER condition than when they were NEW sitting on the showroom
floor. For the record I agree with you…Jagdoc

On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 13:25:35 EDT Peddlarbob@aol.com writes:> Pascal. I cannot accept that any car should get a 100 point score.

If Texas
is awarding a score of this magnitude on a regular basis I agree it
is
unreasonable and very suspect and therefore unbalances the national
scores.
Bob.


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The XJ40 cars in a different class. The X300 cars are grouped together
in their own respective classes. My 95 came in third in the driven
class two years ago. Last year it took 2d in the championship division.
I missed 1st by .3 of a point because I had some curb damage on one
wheel. The car that took first was a brand new XJ-R that had less than
10k on the clock versus the 50+k on my car. My point is, it is more
about cleanliness than anything else. Now we have a company that comes
to the dealership and repairs aluminum wheels, you can bet by next year,
ALL my wheels will be reconditioned and all dents removed etc. I will
have the car detailed about 1or 2 months BEFORE the event and clean it
myself FOR the event.

I think that the reason you don’t see many of the XJ-40’s is that they
just are not worth much money. The cost of repairing them to concours
condition does not justify the resale value. I think the same will be
true of the X300’s as they get some age on them. Now that Jaguar is
becomming more and more popular, the newer cars are in effect losing
their value. Back in the Series days (1,2,3), the cars would depreciate
for a time then, start to appreciate. All that has changed now. My 76
XJ-6 if I restored it to perfect condition is only worth 7 grand. The
interior alone costs 5 grand. I have the new interior sitting here in my
basement waiting for me to install. It would take about another 10 grand
to repaint the car and clean up the chrome. And I have had this car
since 1986! I just put new floors in it a couple of years ago. So,
Why bother?

Now maybe in fifty years or so the XJ-40’s will be worth some real cash!

Jagdoc

writes:On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:10:08 -0400 “Jim Baker” jbaker@netwalk.com

I would be interested in how the newer cars placed in individual
shows as
opposed to national. I see a lot of local X300 and newer at shows
but not
ones from out of town. Could this deter local people with older
XJ40’s from
coming because they can’t compete against a brand new car? Like
should be
judged with like. Logical division with the differences in body
style. But,
then again, if Texas is going to turn in 8(!?) 100 pt cars, no
concours cars
with less than 99.96, then the whole national placing are kind of a
joke
anyway. In our 28 years of concours we have had, I think, 2 100 pt.
cars and
that was just recently. Both of which received 10 in at least three
other
shows. How do these Texas cars stand up in other regions?
Jim
'92 XJ6


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David

All modern Saloons are grouped in the same Class in JCNA Concours. 1988 thru
2002. I think they should be split in XJ40 / X300 and X308 / S and X

the X300 and XJ40 have the same interior and similar engines.

I feel entering cars which are less than probably 6 years old makes the
class more of detailing competition than anything else. It doesn’t really
have the same meaning as a 20 year old car where originality is an issue but
at the same time, these cars are needed being the link between the clubs and
the dealers.

Pascal----- Original Message -----
From: “David S Meck” dmeck@juno.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 12:36 AM
Subject: Re: [concours] The myth of older versus newer cars in a class

The XJ40 cars in a different class. The X300 cars are grouped together
in their own respective classes. My 95 came in third in the driven
class two years ago. Last year it took 2d in the championship division.
I missed 1st by .3 of a point because I had some curb damage on one
wheel. The car that took first was a brand new XJ-R that had less than
10k on the clock versus the 50+k on my car. My point is, it is more
about cleanliness than anything else. Now we have a company that comes
to the dealership and repairs aluminum wheels, you can bet by next year,
ALL my wheels will be reconditioned and all dents removed etc. I will
have the car detailed about 1or 2 months BEFORE the event and clean it
myself FOR the event.

I think that the reason you don’t see many of the XJ-40’s is that they
just are not worth much money. The cost of repairing them to concours
condition does not justify the resale value. I think the same will be
true of the X300’s as they get some age on them. Now that Jaguar is
becomming more and more popular, the newer cars are in effect losing
their value. Back in the Series days (1,2,3), the cars would depreciate
for a time then, start to appreciate. All that has changed now. My 76
XJ-6 if I restored it to perfect condition is only worth 7 grand. The
interior alone costs 5 grand. I have the new interior sitting here in my
basement waiting for me to install. It would take about another 10 grand
to repaint the car and clean up the chrome. And I have had this car
since 1986! I just put new floors in it a couple of years ago. So,
Why bother?

Now maybe in fifty years or so the XJ-40’s will be worth some real cash!

Jagdoc

well I grabbed my judging manual and yup, C-13 AND D-7 include all the
XJ40 and newer saloons. You may write to the powers that be and make a
case. I agree they should be separated. There is a separate class for
the XK-8 so you might try that as ammunition for the argument. Jagdoc

On Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:31:30 -0400 “Pascal Gademer”
pascal@pam-trading.com writes:> David

All modern Saloons are grouped in the same Class in JCNA Concours.
1988 thru
2002. I think they should be split in XJ40 / X300 and X308 / S and X

the X300 and XJ40 have the same interior and similar engines.

I feel entering cars which are less than probably 6 years old makes
the
class more of detailing competition than anything else. It doesn’t
really
have the same meaning as a 20 year old car where originality is an
issue but
at the same time, these cars are needed being the link between the
clubs and
the dealers.

Pascal

----- Original Message -----
From: “David S Meck” <@David_S_Meck>
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 12:36 AM
Subject: Re: [concours] The myth of older versus newer cars in a
class

The XJ40 cars in a different class. The X300 cars are grouped
together
in their own respective classes. My 95 came in third in the
driven
class two years ago. Last year it took 2d in the championship
division.
I missed 1st by .3 of a point because I had some curb damage on
one
wheel. The car that took first was a brand new XJ-R that had less
than
10k on the clock versus the 50+k on my car. My point is, it is
more
about cleanliness than anything else. Now we have a company that
comes
to the dealership and repairs aluminum wheels, you can bet by next
year,
ALL my wheels will be reconditioned and all dents removed etc. I
will
have the car detailed about 1or 2 months BEFORE the event and
clean it
myself FOR the event.

I think that the reason you don’t see many of the XJ-40’s is that
they
just are not worth much money. The cost of repairing them to
concours
condition does not justify the resale value. I think the same
will be
true of the X300’s as they get some age on them. Now that Jaguar
is
becomming more and more popular, the newer cars are in effect
losing
their value. Back in the Series days (1,2,3), the cars would
depreciate
for a time then, start to appreciate. All that has changed now.
My 76
XJ-6 if I restored it to perfect condition is only worth 7 grand.
The
interior alone costs 5 grand. I have the new interior sitting
here in my
basement waiting for me to install. It would take about another
10 grand
to repaint the car and clean up the chrome. And I have had this
car
since 1986! I just put new floors in it a couple of years ago.
So,
Why bother?

Now maybe in fifty years or so the XJ-40’s will be worth some real
cash!

Jagdoc


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