[concours] Year 2000 concours standings

Hello Jag lovers,
The year 2000 concours standings are posted on the JCNA web site. I found it
interesting to note that there are five cars with a 100 point average. Also
interesting is the fact that three of these cars are from the Austin club,
one is from the Dallas club and the remaining one is from the Houston club.
Hmmm. Of the nine cars to average 99.99 or better, seven are from (you
guessed it) Austin, Dallas and Houston. These three clubs took the national
championship in no fewer than nine of the nineteen classes in the champion
division. Hmmm. According to the website, Dallas has 144 members, Houston
has 103 and Austin, which has three of the five 100 point cars, has a grand
total of 58 members. A total of 305 JCNA members from Texas have swept the
championship in almost half of the entire international show field. Hmmm.
IMHO, a 100 point car rarely exists. It must have no scratches, no
blemishes, no specks of dust. It can have no worn or frayed or faded areas
anywhere. No spots, no smudges and it must be exactly authentic. It must be
“perfect”. I know my car isn’t and honestly, I have never seen a car that
was. I’m not advocating an extremely strict judging program, we are a
gentlemen’s club after all. I say, simply follow the JCNA judging score
sheets and call 'em like you see 'em. Are we to believe that all five of
these “perfect” cars in the entire JCNA are residing in a three city area in
Texas? Hmmm.
I hope this doesn’t sound like sour grapes. I honestly think that I would be
just as concerned even if I were a member of one of these Texas clubs. I
just want the judging to be fair to everyone. Am I the only one?

Kindest regards,
John Testrake
Jaguar Association of Greater St. Louis

I am somewhat familiar with (read that: spent a lot of time admiring both at
three concours) two of the 100 point cars, a Series I E-type and a C-type.
Both are owned by very experienced concours participants with extensive
marque and model knowledge. Are they worth 100 points each? Beats me. I
know a little about Series II E-types but would not claim to be a competent
judge on a Series I or a C-type. I assume they did what I did; prepped the
car as well as possible and let the judges have at it.

I showed my car in driven class at three of the same shows that those cars
were shown in. I thought the judging was fair and above board. I had
things I was not aware of pointed out and points were deducted as
appropriate. I can only assume the same standards were applied to all
entries at those shows.

Is the concern is “are the Texas clubs scoring easier than others?” If that
was the case I would expect parallel results in Driven Class but that didn’t
happen. Also, I know some of those cars were shown at non-Texas Concours
and achieved equally high scores.

I think we just saw a year in which one geographic area had some very good
cars on display. Nothing more, nothing less.

Regards, John Walker
69 2+2----- Original Message -----
From: Jtestrake@aol.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 7:37 AM
Subject: [concours] Year 2000 concours standings

Hello Jag lovers,
The year 2000 concours standings are posted on the JCNA web site. I found
it
interesting to note that there are five cars with a 100 point average.
Also
interesting is the fact that three of these cars are from the Austin club,
one is from the Dallas club and the remaining one is from the Houston
club.
Hmmm. Of the nine cars to average 99.99 or better, seven are from (you
guessed it) Austin, Dallas and Houston. These three clubs took the
national
championship in no fewer than nine of the nineteen classes in the champion
division. Hmmm. According to the website, Dallas has 144 members,
Houston
has 103 and Austin, which has three of the five 100 point cars, has a
grand
total of 58 members. A total of 305 JCNA members from Texas have swept
the
championship in almost half of the entire international show field.
Hmmm.
IMHO, a 100 point car rarely exists. It must have no scratches, no
blemishes, no specks of dust. It can have no worn or frayed or faded
areas
anywhere. No spots, no smudges and it must be exactly authentic. It must
be
“perfect”. I know my car isn’t and honestly, I have never seen a car that
was. I’m not advocating an extremely strict judging program, we are a
gentlemen’s club after all. I say, simply follow the JCNA judging score
sheets and call 'em like you see 'em. Are we to believe that all five of
these “perfect” cars in the entire JCNA are residing in a three city area
in
Texas? Hmmm.
I hope this doesn’t sound like sour grapes. I honestly think that I would
be
just as concerned even if I were a member of one of these Texas clubs. I
just want the judging to be fair to everyone. Am I the only one?

Kindest regards,
John Testrake
Jaguar Association of Greater St. Louis

I think I see a “John Walker” from Houston in first place driven in a
certain category…any relation, John? Good on ya!

Bob----- Original Message -----
From: “John R. Walker” jrwalker@ev1.net
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: [concours] Year 2000 concours standings

I am somewhat familiar with (read that: spent a lot of time admiring both
at
three concours) two of the 100 point cars, a Series I E-type and a C-type.
Both are owned by very experienced concours participants with extensive
marque and model knowledge. Are they worth 100 points each? Beats me. I
know a little about Series II E-types but would not claim to be a
competent
judge on a Series I or a C-type. I assume they did what I did; prepped
the
car as well as possible and let the judges have at it.

I showed my car in driven class at three of the same shows that those cars
were shown in. I thought the judging was fair and above board. I had
things I was not aware of pointed out and points were deducted as
appropriate. I can only assume the same standards were applied to all
entries at those shows.

Is the concern is “are the Texas clubs scoring easier than others?” If
that
was the case I would expect parallel results in Driven Class but that
didn’t
happen. Also, I know some of those cars were shown at non-Texas Concours
and achieved equally high scores.

I think we just saw a year in which one geographic area had some very good
cars on display. Nothing more, nothing less.

Regards, John Walker
69 2+2

----- Original Message -----
From: Jtestrake@aol.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 7:37 AM
Subject: [concours] Year 2000 concours standings

Hello Jag lovers,
The year 2000 concours standings are posted on the JCNA web site. I
found
it
interesting to note that there are five cars with a 100 point average.
Also
interesting is the fact that three of these cars are from the Austin
club,
one is from the Dallas club and the remaining one is from the Houston
club.
Hmmm. Of the nine cars to average 99.99 or better, seven are from (you
guessed it) Austin, Dallas and Houston. These three clubs took the
national
championship in no fewer than nine of the nineteen classes in the
champion
division. Hmmm. According to the website, Dallas has 144 members,
Houston
has 103 and Austin, which has three of the five 100 point cars, has a
grand
total of 58 members. A total of 305 JCNA members from Texas have swept
the
championship in almost half of the entire international show field.
Hmmm.
IMHO, a 100 point car rarely exists. It must have no scratches, no
blemishes, no specks of dust. It can have no worn or frayed or faded
areas
anywhere. No spots, no smudges and it must be exactly authentic. It
must
be
“perfect”. I know my car isn’t and honestly, I have never seen a car
that
was. I’m not advocating an extremely strict judging program, we are a
gentlemen’s club after all. I say, simply follow the JCNA judging score
sheets and call 'em like you see 'em. Are we to believe that all five
of
these “perfect” cars in the entire JCNA are residing in a three city
area
in
Texas? Hmmm.
I hope this doesn’t sound like sour grapes. I honestly think that I
would
be
just as concerned even if I were a member of one of these Texas clubs.
I
just want the judging to be fair to everyone. Am I the only one?

Kindest regards,
John Testrake
Jaguar Association of Greater St. Louis

John,
Ummm, congratulations on your winning yet another trophy for the Houston
club in driven class three. I’m not saying that your E-Type and the other
cars shown in the Houston, Dallas and Austin clubs arn’t truly beautiful and
stunning cars. I’m just pointing out that there is an OBVIOUS missalignment
with the scores when compared to the rest of JCNA. Simply put, you guys
aren’t judging them the same as the rest of us.

I think we just saw a year in which one geographic area had some very good
cars on display. Nothing more, nothing less. <

Sorry, I’m not convinced.

Regards,
John Testrake

In a message dated 1/7/01 10:49:36 AM Central Standard Time, jrwalker@ev1.net
writes:

I am somewhat familiar with (read that: spent a lot of time admiring both at
three concours) two of the 100 point cars, a Series I E-type and a C-type.
Both are owned by very experienced concours participants with extensive
marque and model knowledge. Are they worth 100 points each? Beats me. I
know a little about Series II E-types but would not claim to be a competent
judge on a Series I or a C-type. I assume they did what I did; prepped the
car as well as possible and let the judges have at it.

I showed my car in driven class at three of the same shows that those cars
were shown in. I thought the judging was fair and above board. I had
things I was not aware of pointed out and points were deducted as
appropriate. I can only assume the same standards were applied to all
entries at those shows.

Is the concern is “are the Texas clubs scoring easier than others?” If
that
was the case I would expect parallel results in Driven Class but that
didn’t> happen. Also, I know some of those cars were shown at non-Texas Concours
and achieved equally high scores.

I think we just saw a year in which one geographic area had some very good
cars on display. Nothing more, nothing less.

Regards, John Walker
69 2+2

Yup, that was (is) me. :slight_smile:

Regards, John Walker+++++++++++++++++++

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob bobhotaling@cfl.rr.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: [concours] Year 2000 concours standings

I think I see a “John Walker” from Houston in first place driven in a
certain category…any relation, John? Good on ya!

Bob

geeze you guys judge easy :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :)----- Original Message -----
From: “John R. Walker” jrwalker@ev1.net
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: [concours] Year 2000 concours standings

Yup, that was (is) me. :slight_smile:

Regards, John Walker

+++++++++++++++++++

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob <@Bob>
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: [concours] Year 2000 concours standings

I think I see a “John Walker” from Houston in first place driven in a
certain category…any relation, John? Good on ya!

Bob

Given the nature of concours competition judging, both championship and
driven, there is no way for cars to be judged equally at different shows
with different judges. That much is obvious to all of us. What is the
solution (if there acutally is a problem that requires a solution)?
Professional judges who go from concours to concours?

I would be curious to see how the cars in question scored at a concours
besides Houston, San Antonio and Dallas. We could find out but Jaguar
Journal has decided it is more important to publish 3 pages of racing news
and new product information (all of which is available elsewhere) and not
publish individual concours results (which is unavailable elsewhere).

I don’t think there is enough information in the standings on the JCNA
wedsite to support a statement that there is an “obvious misalignment”.

Regards, John Walker----- Original Message -----
From: Jtestrake@aol.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Cc: <@John_R_Walker>
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: [concours] Year 2000 concours standings

John,
Ummm, congratulations on your winning yet another trophy for the Houston
club in driven class three. I’m not saying that your E-Type and the other
cars shown in the Houston, Dallas and Austin clubs arn’t truly beautiful
and
stunning cars. I’m just pointing out that there is an OBVIOUS
missalignment
with the scores when compared to the rest of JCNA. Simply put, you guys
aren’t judging them the same as the rest of us.

I think we just saw a year in which one geographic area had some very
good
cars on display. Nothing more, nothing less. <

Sorry, I’m not convinced.

Regards,
John Testrake

In a message dated 1/7/01 10:49:36 AM Central Standard Time,
@John_R_Walker
writes:

I am somewhat familiar with (read that: spent a lot of time admiring
both at
three concours) two of the 100 point cars, a Series I E-type and a
C-type.
Both are owned by very experienced concours participants with extensive
marque and model knowledge. Are they worth 100 points each? Beats me.
I
know a little about Series II E-types but would not claim to be a
competent
judge on a Series I or a C-type. I assume they did what I did; prepped
the
car as well as possible and let the judges have at it.

I showed my car in driven class at three of the same shows that those
cars
were shown in. I thought the judging was fair and above board. I had
things I was not aware of pointed out and points were deducted as
appropriate. I can only assume the same standards were applied to all
entries at those shows.

Is the concern is “are the Texas clubs scoring easier than others?” If
that
was the case I would expect parallel results in Driven Class but that
didn’t
happen. Also, I know some of those cars were shown at non-Texas
Concours
and achieved equally high scores.

I think we just saw a year in which one geographic area had some very
good
cars on display. Nothing more, nothing less.

Regards, John Walker
69 2+2

John,
Good analysis. I did the same last year and found similar results in a
different area. Didn’t publicise the results because I wasn’t willin to get
in a peeing contest with anyone. In any given year , certain clubs/regions
have “easier” scoring than others and the results are predictable. I won
National class 10 in 1996 with a 99.56 average and felt lucky at that.
Interestingly, the top three were within one tenth and scattered all over the
country. In my first event (and last as you can imagine ) the next year, over
1200 miles away , I scored a 92.something! Any hint of non-originality was
given maximum deduction for that section
There just isn’t any consistency from region to region. In 1999 we
campaigned my wifes 94XJ12 daily driver and scored from 99.2 something to
99.97. As an judge with 25 years of experience, I would say the 99.97 was
definitely too high, and the 99.2 a little low. But that’s a pretty big range
for the same car. Car was judged in three states by three different clubs.
In reality, the average of the scores was probably about right. We came in
5th nationally and 2nd regionally, as the 99.97 score was thrown out in the
regional balloting.
These aren’t complaints, but just my misc. ramblings. We go to a few events a
year, judge in some ,compete in some,get serious every few years, but always
have a good time.
Always enjoy your comments.
Best Regards,
BRIAN HERNAN 94XJ12, 72XJ, 70 Austin. 61 Lotus

At the November 2000 meeting of the JCNA Board of Directors, it was
decided to return to including all concours scores in the Jaguar
Journal.

The Jaguar Journal is about to undergo a total re-design and
reformatting. I think you’ll appreciate the changes.

Dick Cavicke
JCNA SW Region Director

Having entered in only 2 or 3 shows I am a newbie but learning fast. I’ve
competed only in driven class…I’d imagine they are less
…um…discerning …compared to Championship class.

On several occasions I’ve had some experienced fellows advise me “Oh,
yeah, the Judging is much more critical here than so-and-such a place.”
or “Oh, he never docks anyone for that” or “I have never seen any
other judge look there before”.

Comparing score sheets I was quite amused that different judges docked me
for entirely different …and unchanged… items.

Even before entering my first show I realized that there was bound to be
certain degrees of subjectivity involved. I don’t see how it could possibly
be avoided. Isn’t that just part of the game ? You pays yer money and
takes yer chances, just like everyone else.

Now, with regard to this Texas thing…I’m not sure if anything could or
should be done at this point. However, if a clear trend begins to emerge and
continue…

Doug Dwyer
Longview, Washington USA

John opens a can of worms!!!

Keep in mind that JCNA allows you to keep the highest three scores and toss
the rest. So, it doesn’t make any difference where or how often you show a
car, as long as you get three 100s.

So, the thing that would settle the dispute would be the scores outside the
three cities. If even one of the three 100s were from outside the three
Texas cities, and one of the Texas cities didn’t award a 100, that would go
a long way to stifling critics. Another would be to take a look at all the
cars shown in the three cities which were shown in other areas. Then compare
the average scores. Anyone with the time could do this by going through the
old Jag Journals, where all the scores are listed. Keep in mind that one
would expect scores to climb somewhat during the year, as imperfections are
fixed.

But individual scores are not the big problem. The big problem is that if a
club gets a reputation for easy scoring everyone shows up at their concours.
If a club has knowledgeable judges and aren’t permissive, guess what? They
hardly have any out-of-towners at their shows. In other words, leniency is
rewarded while knowledge and strict adherence to the rules is penalized.

Other than some kind of national oversight, I see no easy solution.

“Mark 1” Mark Stephenson
1952 XK120 Roadster #S673129 (w/XK140 engine and C head)
1958 3.4 Litre Saloon / 1984 XJ6 4.2L / 1985 XJ6 VDP / 1986 XJ6 VDP
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona (USA) – Internet Service Provider, TV & Phone | Sparklight Original Message -----
From: Thehernans@aol.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [concours] Year 2000 concours standings

John,
Good analysis. I did the same last year and found similar results in a
different area. Didn’t publicise the results because I wasn’t willin to
get
in a peeing contest with anyone. In any given year , certain clubs/regions
have “easier” scoring than others and the results are predictable. I won
National class 10 in 1996 with a 99.56 average and felt lucky at that.
Interestingly, the top three were within one tenth and scattered all over
the
country. In my first event (and last as you can imagine ) the next year,
over
1200 miles away , I scored a 92.something! Any hint of non-originality was
given maximum deduction for that section
There just isn’t any consistency from region to region. In 1999 we
campaigned my wifes 94XJ12 daily driver and scored from 99.2 something to
99.97. As an judge with 25 years of experience, I would say the 99.97 was
definitely too high, and the 99.2 a little low. But that’s a pretty big
range
for the same car. Car was judged in three states by three different clubs.
In reality, the average of the scores was probably about right. We came in
5th nationally and 2nd regionally, as the 99.97 score was thrown out in
the
regional balloting.
These aren’t complaints, but just my misc. ramblings. We go to a few
events a
year, judge in some ,compete in some,get serious every few years, but
always
have a good time.
Always enjoy your comments.
Best Regards,
BRIAN HERNAN 94XJ12, 72XJ, 70 Austin. 61 Lotus

Your right on the money Mark, the only true soulution to this problem would be a
national cadre of judges that would travel to the different concours and would
have no allegience to any particular club. Cost, and time would be a major
hurdle to this method. Until then, we will suffer from the human frailities of
objectivity.

Len Wheeler

Mark Stephenson wrote:> John opens a can of worms!!!

Keep in mind that JCNA allows you to keep the highest three scores and toss
the rest. So, it doesn’t make any difference where or how often you show a
car, as long as you get three 100s.

So, the thing that would settle the dispute would be the scores outside the
three cities. If even one of the three 100s were from outside the three
Texas cities, and one of the Texas cities didn’t award a 100, that would go
a long way to stifling critics. Another would be to take a look at all the
cars shown in the three cities which were shown in other areas. Then compare
the average scores. Anyone with the time could do this by going through the
old Jag Journals, where all the scores are listed. Keep in mind that one
would expect scores to climb somewhat during the year, as imperfections are
fixed.

But individual scores are not the big problem. The big problem is that if a
club gets a reputation for easy scoring everyone shows up at their concours.
If a club has knowledgeable judges and aren’t permissive, guess what? They
hardly have any out-of-towners at their shows. In other words, leniency is
rewarded while knowledge and strict adherence to the rules is penalized.

Other than some kind of national oversight, I see no easy solution.

“Mark 1” Mark Stephenson
1952 XK120 Roadster #S673129 (w/XK140 engine and C head)
1958 3.4 Litre Saloon / 1984 XJ6 4.2L / 1985 XJ6 VDP / 1986 XJ6 VDP
Jaguar Club of Central Arizona (USA) – Internet Service Provider, TV & Phone | Sparklight

----- Original Message -----
From: Thehernans@aol.com
To: concours@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [concours] Year 2000 concours standings

John,
Good analysis. I did the same last year and found similar results in a
different area. Didn’t publicise the results because I wasn’t willin to
get
in a peeing contest with anyone. In any given year , certain clubs/regions
have “easier” scoring than others and the results are predictable. I won
National class 10 in 1996 with a 99.56 average and felt lucky at that.
Interestingly, the top three were within one tenth and scattered all over
the
country. In my first event (and last as you can imagine ) the next year,
over
1200 miles away , I scored a 92.something! Any hint of non-originality was
given maximum deduction for that section
There just isn’t any consistency from region to region. In 1999 we
campaigned my wifes 94XJ12 daily driver and scored from 99.2 something to
99.97. As an judge with 25 years of experience, I would say the 99.97 was
definitely too high, and the 99.2 a little low. But that’s a pretty big
range
for the same car. Car was judged in three states by three different clubs.
In reality, the average of the scores was probably about right. We came in
5th nationally and 2nd regionally, as the 99.97 score was thrown out in
the
regional balloting.
These aren’t complaints, but just my misc. ramblings. We go to a few
events a
year, judge in some ,compete in some,get serious every few years, but
always
have a good time.
Always enjoy your comments.
Best Regards,
BRIAN HERNAN 94XJ12, 72XJ, 70 Austin. 61 Lotus