Be interested to read that nothing comes up on google apart from the P&W wasp engine?
In 1984, at the Long Beach Grand Prix (when I was crewing for a Super Vee), I got my only chance to meet and speak with Dan Gurney, who was a builder on one of the stock-block Indy cars.
It was a SBC, and I saw injectors, right next to the spark plugs.
I was puzzled, and asked Mr. Gurney what that was all about. He took the next 5-10 minutes, and graciously explained about GDI, about which and at that time, I hadn’t a clue about.
WIGS very interesting about DG, and DI injection, coulda been Nitrous injection for push -to-pass stuff, or something we may never know?
ron /thanks.
Paul thats the beauty of street racing ,NO rules ,just car to car, any kind if car!
winner wins, losers lose, very simple!
ron
K , modifying the head would be the easy part!
the hi pressure pump(2500psi,) system and TIMING the Electronic injection of each injector would be the diffecult/time consuming process!
ron
I don’t think so, these are electronic so a crank sensor and a programmable controller… and some fuel pump of course. Design new heads, that must be more trouble…
1 Like
I agree David, putting a hole in the head through whatever water jackets and getting that sealed for an off-the-shelf GDI injector -and one of the right length would be the tough part.
The easy part would be to put a cam lobe on the jack shaft and have that engineered to drive (even via a push pin) any number of OTS GDI pumps. Do some leak free plumbing -probably in stainless, and then control the pressures build up by the pump - and time the injectors the normal way.
~Paul K.
sounds easy, when is someone gonna do it?
we must be working from a different tool box, mounting an injector of my choice ,in the head would NOT much problem for me, but getting the HI pressure pump ,and the electronics TUNED correctly ,
once on the dyno ,would be time consuming and expensive!
GDI injections are much shorter durations ,relative to port injections! with a totaly different MAP, and most computer modules dont accept 12 cylinders! also what would you use for a 2000+ fuel pressure regulator?
how would you even get to the jackshaft its down inside the vee, and little room for a pump?
OK talk is cheap, someone actually do it!
ron
Yes… exactly. And not that I’m planning on doing any of this as anything other than a mental exercise since as I said at the outset … I don’t think this is ever happening on the V12 other than smoke being blown around…
… but tell me since " modifying the head is the easy part," and you were the first in this thread to speculate about actually using “Direct Chamber Injection” what GDI injector are you planning on using and how do you expect to fit it into the head so that it will spray down from the middle of the chamber and we’ll go from there…
Did you know there are already several aftermarket EFI systems that control GDI? Even if you needed 2x 6cyl units, if they’re not here already, they will be within the next few years. Tuning? Well hell… that’s kind of a given with any aftermarket control system wouldn’t you think? Costly? Well come on! that’s just part of the bag even if you were only changing TPI injectors.
GDI pumps work both mechanically and electronically in combination with a pressure sensor… the pump bypasses over-pressure and that’s under ECU control. Incoming pressure is just a low pressure fuel feed. The rail is what gets up to marinas trench pressures.
You don’t seem to have ever seen a GDI pump or just how small that little bastard is. You could almost add a lobe onto the cam itself and bolt the GDI pump to the cover it’s so small. Re-purposing the jack-shaft seems to be a cleaner option to me, and one could always add a lifter if the pump couldn’t’ make direct contact with a lobe. I mean, surely if you’re going GDI, the V is clear of other junk having already made way for DIS or COP. Adding a lifter and lifter-mount if needed would be the tricky-est part. Since aftermarket electronics is already beginning to support all that - at least in 4cyl form at the moment (maybe better), we’re back at how to make a GDI injector fit a V12 head.
Just so that sizes and scales are apparent:
The star would be your typical target injection location - and as straight-on as possible… Putting in an injector on the interior “V” side of the head looks like an absurd impossibility. You can’t put it directly in-between the valves, or anywhere inside the red lines because there’s a cam cover tray in the way.
Next you’ve got to deal with head bolts, and exhaust port paths. which puts such a bore hole off at an awkward angle passing through the water jacket - which would have to be specially sleeved and welded up -causing cooling issues? And canting the fuel rail out at an odd angle. Not my definition of simple…
~Paul K
1 Like
YES nothing simple about the whole idea, much less the cost!
be cheaper to just cast New heads designed for what would be needed,injector placement, may as well do 4 valve ,twin cam, with Pent roof chamber,bigger ports ETC.
some place in UK there are some leftover 4 V, twin cam heads already cast, but no finished machining!
so somebody has the molds , i doubt that anyone would scrape stuff like that!(i hope not).
cost still be astronomical!
Personally i would go for a twin TURBO set up , on a good condition PreHE used engine!
i already have a ECU for v12 that is fully programmable , and many types of sensors, Vacuum/Boost!
realisticly i dont need anymore power than what i’v got, quite sure my XJS is faster than 95% of other XJSs! (lets not forget i’m 85 closing in on 86 yrs old, so believe me performance is not my top prority).
.
ron
Surprisingly, this may be the application where the pre-HE is unwanted and the HE’s detonation resistance (with chamber modification) can/will outshine the pre-HE — IF Bonner Engineering’s experience is enough to go by:
http://www.bonnerengineering.com/services/engine-development/
For those curious about that set of unfinished 4V V12 heads somewhere in the UK:
~Paul K
2 Likes
14 minutes in to miss the boring stuff.
Bill,
Surrey,UK 1995 X305.
1 Like
LOL… thats why they ended up hidden in a barn 
Norman Lutz maybe? He’s built some high spec marine racing V12s in the past.
TTFN
Bill,
Surrey,UK 1995 X305.
Back in 2017, a chap from Sidney AU who goes by the handle “Como” ordered up a set from Bonner from NOS 5.3L heads after looking over the “Has anyone ever made 500 hp from” thread on the JaguarFourms. AFAIK he planed to used them in NA form… He re-posted some pics of the heads in-hand (as I posted above) in early 2019 having not yet done any assembly or seat installation in the intake ports.
Paul K.
WOW 36 degrees at 20psi (1,5bar) boost??? that must be a typo…
That much advance at that boost must be knocking like a woodpecker from hell…
Or about 6:1 compression?
That would help but then be making 200hp… not 800
Not if there’s enough boost…
Top fuel dragsters are about 6:1.