Hi Steve,
Personally, I wouldn’t put too much reliance on the alignment of the front wing, door and rear wing underside returns in a 60-yr-old car of unknown history. I also can’t see how a body shim pack could collapse, assuming it has the correct type of spacers installed. My money would be on the door hinges - or a misalignment of panels in a previous restoration.
I don’t know the 150 at all, but do know the metalwork of the 140 intimately in this area. So, if it were a 140, I would:
Remove the front RH footwell kick panel trim to get a clear view of the RH hinge pivot bolt heads from inside the driver’s footwell.
Have someone swing the door back and forth while you watch the upper and lower pivot bolts - do either of them rotate with the door, or do they stay still?
If one (or both) rotates, it’s probably rusted to the hinge. This means it is turning in the sheet metal hinge plates and will be wearing the holes oval. This is extremely common. The bolt head must not move at all - a little bit of wear here will allow a significant drop to the rear of the door. It may not show much change in the A-post gap, becauses it’s closer to it - and,of course, it depends on how the body was aligned in the last restoration.
For a 140, hinge repair just might be possible without major panel surgery but it’s tricky. The problem here is, as always, what’s been done in the past - or not done? Assuming original RHD, the fact that the right side is worse than the left also points to hinges, as the RHS ones will have been used more.
I’d say a better compromise, assuming the pivot bolts are good, would be fine adjusting of the door shims to even out the discrepancy. Does the rear of the door lift at all when you close it and it runs on the striker?
I’d be very wary of changing any body shims, as a small change will affect other mounts as well and you can end up chasing the gaps all around the car. If not very careful you can lose your reference points and then you have a bigger problem.
I’d say it depends on how bad the problem is at present. If the hinge pivot bolts (upper and lower hinges) are not rotating, you could live with it maybe. If either is rotating, I think you may have to open this can of worms before it gets worse!
Only my opinion though, and based entirely on 140 experience. If you get the XK Club Gazette, it’s covered extensively with photos in my restoration series articles.
Hi Roger as iv posted previously… there is very minimal play in the hings…the striker plate had been lowered so the door would close but not line up with the rear wing as can be seen in the photos above…I tried lifting the rear of the door to check for hinge play but the door hardly moved…iv removed the door thinking initially that i would remove the hinges and re pin them anyway…but this is impossible as far as i can see…without cutting or removeing the wing…iv looked in at the hinges and they look good…but havent looked whilst opening door to see if bolts move…think i need to get the door back on and double check but would like to know about lifting the body at the mounts forward of the fuel pump becaus at the moment this is the only solution i can see that will solve tbe problem…but im not rushing into anything…think that whilst i have access i will at least free up the chassis to body bolts just in case…Cheers…Steve
Even the smallest of movements at the hinge will be amplified at the rear of the door.
In the 140, the hinges can (just) be removed into the footwell area - that’s how I did mine.
If you start playing with the body mounts, make doubly sure you keep every single packer in a separate marked bag and in the same assembly order. Is the door to B post gap even, or does it taper?
Hi Roger…When you say you can remove tbe hinge im assuming you had to first remove tbe hinge pin and seperate the hinge to remove it…on mine there is no way it could come out complete…the reason im fixating on tbis “body droop”…is that with the door removed and a straight edge on bottom of front wing back to rear wing the rear wing/B post is higher…other side of car its straight…many thanks for trying to assist…cheers…Steve…ps door to B post looks even as in photo above
Steve,
Here are a couple photos of the hinge assemblies on a 150 OTS:
You can visually inspect them with the removal of quite a bit of the kick panel interior, but as you can see, it’s a major job. You are correct that hinge removal or repair without taking the fender off is impossible.
As you’ve stated, the doors are heavy (and long), so it doesn’t take but a fraction of movement to cause misalignment at the rear edge. There can be enough sag without perceptible hinge movement to cause the results in your photo.
IMO, you’re placing too much emphasis on the lower wing/fender edge alignment. It’s understandable as that would seem to be the easiest way to align the rear door edge. However, I agree with Roger, shimming just the front wing will cause all kinds of stress elsewhere in the body. No telling what could happen as a result.
Finally, if the hinge is wearing, which is the most likely culprit, shimming will only be treating the symptom, and not the cause.
Wish I had a better answer for you.
Hi All…I really appreciate all the help given here…iv been under the car and can see no sign of sagging around the chassis mounts areas…very slight movement on one hinge the other appears very firm…this is with the door removed…no sign of any corrosion around the hinges and the hinges are moveing on the pins and the pins arnt moveing…im listening to your advice and will assume its a hinge problem…whilst i have the area opened up i will have a try to see if its possible to get the pins out and get the hinges out…will continue rebuilding the battery boxes, splash panels and reassemble the front suspension…cheers…Steve
If the hinges are turning on the pivot bolts, that’s a good sign. All that follows relates to the 140, 150 may be different…
To remove the hinges, first job is to take the door off the hinges - 8 screws, carefully noting what shims go where. Then get behind the A-post and remove the hinge pivot bolts by undoing the nut beneath and pulling/tapping the bolt upwards. The upper one is easy, the lower not quite so easy as you have get between the sill and the turned-under wired edge of the front wing. I would make sure you record which hinge goes where, and with the appropriate bolt.
On my 140, I had to remove all the hinge box nuts and bolts (8 each hinge box) before I could remove the hinge arm, to allow the hinge box to be slid towards the centre of the car to allow the hinge pin to be withdrawn, as it can be too close to the curved top of the wing.
You can now check for play on the bench. Any movement at all between bolt and hinge will translate into a dropped back end of your door. A fraction of a mm on the pivot bolt will become a few mm at the B-post. This will be very difficult to detect accurately with the parts disassembled. A better way to check, in my view, would be:
With the door in place and open, pull up on the rear of the door so hard that you lift the side of the car slightly. If you can do this whilst ‘closing’ the door, it should be possible to tell if the door is lining up better with the B-post. You can let it ‘drop’ a bit to see if there is any hinge movement, but you really have to pull very hard to lift that door. If there really is no movement, my conclusion would be that at the last restoration the car was not aligned correctly. Correction now would mean revisiting the panelwork, and with the car looking as nice as it does in your photos you would have to make the call as to whether such work would be justified or not.
You might be able to upgrade to a larger pivot bolt and a decent Oilite bush set into the dismantled hinge arm if you know what you are doing, but this would probably change the door fit slightly and might require metalwork alterations as well.
If you need to remove the hinge boxes from the car, this is problematic - all received advice is that the front wing needs to be cut, but I can tell you that on my 140DHC the hinge boxes can be removed from inside the car. This requires removal of the wing vents and boxes and removal of all 16 nuts and bolts retaining the hinge boxes on one side. They can then be tapped up or down, as required, into the space between the hinge attachments and removed into the footwell. You will have to check if this is likely to work with a 150 as the panelwork may be different.
Your photos are low res and I can’t enlarge enough to make a guess as to how parallel the door gaps are. I think the rear gap looks as if it could be a bit wider at the base than the top, but I’m not sure. Remember this is a mass-produced down-to-a-price fifties sports car, and the panel gaps were never perfect from new. As D. Serber has said, the underside of the wings and door is so variable as to be meaningless really, especially if you look at some of the period photos of cars in the factory.
Only you can decide if it’s worth the work or not, I’m afraid!
Best wishes with it, Roger
Hi Roger…thanks…i will see if i can get to the hinges…befor i removed the door with it just open i did lift hard at the rear edge…hard enough to start to lift the car…the door wouldnt get anywhere near to closeing in position with the wing…this is why i was confident the hinge pin wasnt causing tne problem…cheers…Steve
Remarkable that the basic hinge design didn’t change from the XK120 to the 150, at least it looks the same in the pic. The most charitable thing to say about the design is it’s primitive. Not only are they steel on steel there’s no provision for occasional lubrication. Steve, I’d strongly recommend doing a little research into improvements. This is a pretty good reference, though there are several other conversations in the archives.
Thanks Nick…i searched the forum and read all the posts…and various blogs on hinge repair…i have the air vent and box removed…but cant see yet that its possible to get to get to the hinge pins to get them out…think my next move is to position the door into the opening without connecting the hinges and see how its position looks…will keep everyone updated…cheers…Steve
That thread shows pretty well how I did mine. It would most likely turn into major surgery though, because after doing this you can bet your existing parts will not align. Reckon on panel alignment correction and repainting, I’m afraid. If the door isn’t right, the A- and B-posts may not be - or the sill - it’s a slippery slope…
Hi All…so a much closer look today…and plan was to remove hinges…started with the lower one…i dont know what the structure should look like under the A post to wing once i scraped away the underseal i found a galvanised repair? Panel had been rivited in under the A post/sill…covering up some rot/rust but gave me full access to bottom of hinge pin…nut came off easily and i tapped the pin upwards and removed it and 1/2of tbe hinge that connects to door…next onto the otner half of tne hinge thats bolted in…the outer 4 bolts on the A post came out easy…now on to the 4 inner bolts…the 2 lower were straight forward the 2 above were going to be tricky…no way of getting a spanner/socket on them…so drilled a hole in the A post panel just above the slot for the hinge…this let me slide in a socket bar and socket and the bolt was quickley out…one more to do tomorrow but need to get a thin socket flexi drive…Steve
Good progress today…had to drill another hole in the A post panel to get a flexi socket bar in for the last bolt on the lower hinge box…came out easy…the only way out was to twist the box 90 and pull it straight down through the bottom. .photo shows 2 holes that needed drilling to access the bolts and hinge box comming out the bottom
Now onto the top hinge…no access holes needed drilling as you can get to the bolts easily…however the battery box and splash panels need to come out and with a 2ft socket bar you can get to the last bolt…so with it now free getting it out was the problem…i thought it could drop straight down and out the bottom as tne lower hinge…but tbere is metal work in the way…so minor surgery to cut and bend back a flap to get it out as can be seen in next photo…finally 2 hinges on the bench…Steve
It looks like one of those hinges was repaired previously and one was not. If I am interpreting the last photo correctly, bushes were welded onto the backing plate and a slot may have been cut in the top bush to keep the pin from turning. The question is whether that repair is still good or whether the issue is with the other hinge. If there is any slop in the pin fit, that should tell you.
Hi Bob…yes correct…the lower hinge has been repaired…but that was the one with the most movement…both only have very small movement of the pin in the hinge but at least i can take this play out and then know the hinges are ok…then see if i can sort the door with shims…Steve
Like those stupid bonnet latches on the E: 2ce/ year, I lubed them, and the choke pins in the carbs.
I have a 140 fhc - and had some issues on door alignment. I don’t know what the inner door construction on the 150 looks like, but in addition to hinge work I did two things inside the door that helped with alignment. There’s an adjustable metal strap on the 140 that runs diagonally from above the top hinge to the bottom of the door. I was surprised how much a few turns on the adjustment nut raised the bottom of the door at the rear. If the 150 has a similar construction then I’d give this a try. You’ll get a movement at the back/bottom but not much on the top. Then I adjusted the shims a bit.
Another thing I did on my 140… but don’t think it applies to the 150. The door hinges bolt to a plate after passing through the wood frame of the door. Over the years people had tightened things down and the wood was compressed unevenly. Because of this the door sat slightly uneven. I used some larger plates to even it out again.
Hope this is helpful. The thread’s gone quiet… not sure if you got it solved.
Hi Scott…thanks for the reply…will have a look in the door to see if there is an “adjuster” as you mention. …have noticed that where the lower hinge fits to the door the foor is pushed in a bit so need to pullbit straight or use tapered shims…been busy on other things( new battery boxes) etc but door hinges have just been re bushed with oilite bushes and new pins sorted…hinge boxes reinforced and just painted today…no plans to refit the door for a while but will definatly update this post when it goes on…all the best…Steve
Had a look at the door diagrams on the coventry website - there is a similar adjusting band on the 150 door. It’s not numbered but clearly visible. Adjusting is challenging as you need “stubby” wrenches. Can be in place or on the bench. I’d hit it with some wd 40 and get the nuts moving on the bench, but do any adjusting while its on the car.
you can see the diagonal band in the photo above. Adjusting nuts are difficult to access due to being buried behind everything! If this band is broken or not tight you will get sagging for sure.
Hi Scott…thats great info…have used coventry for parts but hadnt seen this diagram very usefull…nothing in the Viart 150 book showing these details…That could certainly explain why the front gap of my door looks perfect but the rear way off…the door is currently off the car…will investigate this morning and get some wd in there…will report back later…its so heavy…was thinking of taking out all the glass and lifter etc to make a bit lighter and easier to fit…cheers…Steve