10% has been the figure in California since 2010:
Seven years ought to be enough for us to notice problems, but on this forum at least, I get the impression that most Californians don’t seem to have the problems reported elsewhere. Maybe the dry climate is a big factor?
-David
2 vastly experienced mechanics swear to me they have personally seen certain metal, especially alloy parts, such as intake manifolds scoured, and they attribute this to ethanol, in a similar way that methanol is known to do this. I am skeptical, but there is some backing for this if you peruse the internet
Ethanol is 10% here, but at this time, you can easily buy ethanol free
I use ethanol fuels in my cars that are specified to take it,(its cheaper) but not in my older Jags, members of our Jag club who race their vehicles are adamant that ethanol is very bad news for any rubber parts not specifically designed for it
That’s pretty much the norm nationwide; E10. The sticker on the pump states “may contain up to 10% ethanol”, so it could potentially contain less.
I lived in Texas longer than ethanol has been mandated and never had a problem with it in anything that used gasoline.
John,
My Texas outboard and string trimmer both had vinyl hoses that got so brittle they shattered. Was it ethanol? How would I know? Definitely the '97 Volvo and '98 BMW M3 I had there never had any issues that could be traced to ethanol – no fuel problems at all in a decade.
Ethanol is a convenient hanger to tie any problems that come up onto. I’m sure that there can be ethanol related problems, and I do believe my small motor problems were likely ethanol related, but not everything that happens is caused by ethanol. Definitely never had any Jaguar problems traceable to ethanol. Ethanol, ZDDP, synthetic oil, radial tires (back in the day), all ideas on which many myths have been hung. YMMV.
Jerry
You and I are in full agreement on this
Ethanol readily absorbs moisture from the air. Sometimes my garage floor is dripping wet after I open the door on a spring morning. Maybe that makes a difference.
I am opposite from some of you guys up north. My car is a no AC FHC so it is this time of year it does not see much action in Houston since it is such a sweat box. I do however make sure I do at least fire it up every few weeks and let it get up to operating temperature. Have not had any problems like this in the 17 years I have owned the car and I would think Houston has as much ethanol and humidity as most any place.
David
68 E-type FHC
I’m with Jerry and the others in thinking that “E10” fuel has become a huge scapegoat, and pretty much unjustified. Pure ethanol should evaporate clean with no residue. I suppose it might combine with other stuff in the gas to do harm, but I’m skeptical. I’ve saved myself a lot of trouble (and some money) over the years by just using whatever gas is readily available, and I’ve never had any problems that I would attribute to ethanol. If resurrecting a disused or little-used car, I am always aware that the soft parts might have deteriorated, and I replace them as needed. But I don’t necessarily attribute it to ethanol.
Huge differences in opinion on this, of course. A great many of my good friends in the Idaho British Car Club really HATE ethanol-laced gas, and will go to great lengths to avoid it. To each his own, I guess.
Bob Frisby
S2 FHC (and other old Brit iron), Boise, Idaho
I am lucky that I live very close to a PURE gas station, so I use only non-ethanol in my Jag and another car that gets little use. I wont get into the debate, its pointless, but I am glad there are options for people like me that may or may not want to use ethanol. the cost increase for pure gas isnt an issue to me for as little of it as I use. But I do use E10 in the car we drive everyday.
However, I do like alcohol in my Whiskey and Scotch…
I think the green is from corrosion of the needle and the diaphragm spring. I discovered the same thing this spring when I rebuilt my carbs. I don’t know whether ethanol was the problem, but I do know that I will be exercising the engine more often.
Like Jerry, I’ve been running on gas containing Ethanol for decades. My carbs were last rebuilt in about '97, and I have had ZERO problems since then. They have not been apart in all that time, except to play with different needles. I NEVER use Sta-Bil or any other “treatment”. When I park the car for the winter, I simply switch the engine off, and walk away. In the Spring, it never fails to start right up and run perfectly, with no more than about 5 seconds of cranking. Blaming your problems on Ethanol is jumper quite far to a conclusion, with no supporting evidence.
Regards,
Ray L.
Brandon,
Ethanol laced fuel has caused of many industry gasoline engine problems. Vehicle manufacturers have gone to great lengths to re-engineer engine components and related accessories to function with E10 or E85 fuel. IMHO Ethanol 10 is akin to the "Pump gas yourself and save $0.02 gallon (when first introduced) scam that came about in the 1970’s. That’s when Service Stations became Gas Stations!
My first experience with E10 failure was with my John Deere lawn tractor. Tractor would run fine for a while. When shut down it would not restart. Found the fuel line was collapsing internally due to Ethanol effect on the standard line. Changed to Marine grade line - problem fixed. Also, the fuel pump diaphragm rapidly deteriorated causing multiple replacements until John Deere changed the rubber specs.d Additionally, the Kawasaki engine valves would varnish quickly, sticking and bending the pushrod. Once I changed to Ethanol Free Regular that varnishing problem ceased.
Then there the fact Ethanol 10 fuel is less efficient than Regular gasoline. Better gas mileage is achieved via Regular Gas verses Ethanol 10 due to the energy (BTU’s) per gallon.
GGE calculated for gasoline in US gallons at 114000 BTU per gallon,
or 7594 kilocalories per litre[2]
Fuel: liquid, US gallons GGE GGE % BTU/gal kWh/gal HP-hr/gal kcal/litre
Gasoline (base)[3] 1.0000 100.00 114,000 33.41 44.79 7594.0
Gasoline (conventional, summer)[3] 0.9960 100.40% 114,500 33.56 44.99 7624.5
Gasoline (conventional, winter)[3] 1.0130 98.72 112,500 32.97 44.20 7496.5
Gasoline (reformulated gasoline, E10 - ethanol)[3] 1.0190 98.14% 111,836 32.78 43.94 7452.4
Gasoline (reformulated gasoline, ETBE )[3] 1.0190 98.14% 111,811 32.77 43.93 7452.4
Gasoline (reformulated gasoline, MTBE)[3] 1.0200 98.04% 111,745 32.75 43.90 7445.1
Gasoline (10% MTBE)[4] 1.0200 98.04% 112,000 32.83 44.00 7445.1
Gasoline (regular unleaded)[5] 1.0000 100.00% 114,100 33.44 44.83 7594.0
Diesel #2[5] 0.8800 113.64% 129,500 37.95 50.87 8629.8
Biodiesel (B100)[5] 0.9600 104.17% 118,300 34.80 46.65 8629.5
Biodiesel (B20)[5] 0.9000 111.11% 127,250 37.12 49.76 8437.7
Liquid natural gas (LNG)[5] 1.5362 65.10% 75,000 21.75 29.16 4943.3
Liquefied petroleum gas (propane / autogas) (LPG)[5]1.2470 80.19% 91,500 26.82 35.95 6089.8
Methanol fuel (M100)[5] 2.0100 49.75% 56,800 16.62 22.28 3778.1
Ethanol fuel (E100)[5] 1.5000 66.67% 76,100 22.27 29.85 5062.7
Ethanol (E85)[5] 1.3900 71.94% 81,800 24.04 32.23 5463.3
Jet fuel (naphtha)[6] 0.9700 103.09% 118,700 34.44 46.17 7828.9
Jet fuel (kerosene)[6] 0.9000 111.11% 128,100 37.12 49.76 8437.7
Nitromethane fuel ~2.3 41.23% 47,000
Ethanol 10 also has a greater affinity to hold water than Regular gasoline. That’s the main reason E10 is restricted from use in General Aviation aircraft.
If Ethanol Free - Regular gasoline is available in your area take the time and do a comparison on how well your (car/mower, etc.) operates.
Also, if you sell fuel that’s less efficient who benefits? The tax man ! ! !
Just my 2 cents…
Happy Motoring,
Dick
'74 OTS
'99 XJR
1947 Stinson 108-1 “Voyager”
Grow Old is Mandatory… Growing UP is Optional…
Ray, where are you located? Someone proposed that climate might have an impact.
I did this with my '95 Jeep Cherokee with 4.0 I6
The FSM states it is designed to run on '91 and 10% ethanol
so that is what i use, as its much cheaper than the alternative of 95 ethanol free
I did economy test 91 vs 95 and found negligible difference in economy or performance
most Cherokee forum users are against 91 ethanol… I follow the FSM
my present Jag regular driver has a nominally 9:1 motor, (but I suspect its more), so I run 98, which is specified on its build sheet, its ethanol free
Ethanol does absorb moisture, just like gas line antifreeze, or Dry-Fuel, perhaps even more than brake fluid (I suspect so). But in the pics you posted, particularly this one, it’s the fact that the deposits are green that stands out to me.
These cars have spent most of their lives without Ethanol. That area is the worst of the entire carb system for corrosion. On thermocarb (“Hisser”) SUs there is an additional (ferrous) screw through the nub which locates the spring. Al + Fe + moisture is a bad combination - between 1/3 and 1/2 of the time a hisser float chamber just disintegrates when you try to take it apart.
I’m used to seeing reddish brown rust (from steel), or white crystals (from Al), and even the jet springs rusted completely through, but the green suggests that something is leeching Copper or Nickel from somewhere. Given that the vast majority of the fuel system is either steel or Al, if Ethanol fuel was so aggressive to Copper or Nickel that this chemical reaction was a given, then I suspect I’d have seen it, or someone from an E10 area would have said “Green is normal”.
Because Ethanol allows moisture to mix thoroughly with the fuel you don’t know how much water you’re getting when you tank (Time was gas station attendants had to check water level in the storage tanks every day, that was easy when it wouldn’t mix with the fuel).
Here in Switzerland they don’t even have to declare less than 5%, so perhaps it’s a concentration issue.
I’ve no problem believing that Ethanol causes problems with some soft materials like seals or hoses, but your green deposit is a mystery to me.
I’m not trying to be the poster girl for Ethanol. I’d just like to have a more in depth causal explanation than “It’s the stuff of the Devil”. (I’m going to change the title of this thread once I’ve changed out of my fish net stockings.)
Do you always tank at the same station/chain?
Was your tank coated, brazed or soldered(Flux?)?
Dick,
Am I missing something here? Your figures show ethanol fuel only 1.8% lower in kcal/liter. That is not much difference! That is less than 0.5 MPG at 20 MPG.
Jerry
I drink ethanol all the time and never had a problem. Never thought of it as evil either.
abe
Tony,
FWIW the E-Type documents specify for a 9:1 engine minimum octane rating of 98 (Research Method, ROM) US pump octane is CLC octane, which is (ROM + motor method) /2.
98 octane ROM equals CLC pump octane of 93 or so. Here in California we can’t get better than 91 CLC, or about 96 ROM, but I don’t get any knocking on that. If you can buy 93 pump octane gasoline, you are at the specified level for the 9:1 E-Type.
Jerry
As I said, I ran e0 89 octane in my Ford Focus ST (DI turbo) for several thousand miles and averaged ~10% better fuel economy than e10 in 87 or 93 octane (that engine is designed for anything in that range). Also it ran smoother and seemed more powerful though that was not absolute like the fuel economy measurement (I have a spreadsheet tracking over 100 fillups, 900 gallons, 27,000 miles).
The green tint is interesting but was also present in my lawnmower carbs along with the sludge. I wasn’t so conscious of the color since I’ve seen it in each instance, but mostly looking at the corrosion and pitting. Lawn mowers have been running splendidly since the switch to e0.
So yes, I admit I’m a mechanical engineer not a chemist… since my experience matched other friends regarding ethanol enriched fuel I made an assumption. Certainly lack of use not ethanol is the root cause in my case, but ethanol may or may not have played a role.
Remember here in NC 90% + humidity is normal in the summer.
Nor am I a chemist or engineer, but I suspect we’re all more or less curious to know the mechanism behind what we observe.
We don’t get particularly high humidity levels here in Switzerland, but we do get constant changes in atmospheric pressure - precipitation here is either a high pressure system dumping it’s moisture as it climbs the Alps North to South, or a high pressure system dumping what little moisture it has left after travelling South to North. Brake fluid seems to collect moisture here much more than other places, if the electronic test gauge I use is anything close to an empirical measure. Most “lid with a vent hole” hydraulic systems make the tester beep after 2-3 years, the plastic ones go 4 years in general.
You mention that you cleaned the parts ultrasonically - what did you use for a fluid?
