In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Wed 18 Mar 2015:
Agree with Les, your symptoms sound like a worn reverse idler
gear. The teeth become deformed at the end which creates the
noise when meshed with the mating gear. Pushing in the clutch
stops rotation. Mine also makes that sound. I was able to
lessen it somewhat by switching to Ford’s full synthetic manual
transmission fluid. Red Line MT90 was no different from GL4
non-synthetic gear oil. Scroll down to the third item on this
web page:
In reply to a message from Jim Horvath sent Wed 18 Mar 2015:
I had that condition once and, upon taking taking the gearbox
apart, found that the layshaft bearings and the layshaft rod (that it
rotates on) were very very worn.–
Dennis Vancouver Canada 69 Roadster
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Dennismo sent Wed 18 Mar 2015:
Could be but the OP had the box inspected by a shop so chances are
they would have caught any major signs of wear. In my case my box
was actually rebuilt, the guy (who was recommended by a well known
local Jag shop) pretty much missed my worn idler gear. Not hard
to do, bad break for me but my noise is not too bad and otherwise
the box is fine.–
The original message included these comments:
I had that condition once and, upon taking taking the gearbox
apart, found that the layshaft bearings and the layshaft rod (that it
rotates on) were very very worn.
–
Jim Horvath, '67 OTS, 1E13653
San Jose/CA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Dennismo sent Wed 18 Mar 2015:
I agree.
The layshaft and needles should almost always be replaced.
‘‘I had that condition once and, upon taking taking the
gearbox
apart, found that the layshaft bearings and the layshaft rod
(that it
rotates on) were very very worn.’’–
Doug Buchan
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Wed 18 Mar 2015:
Hi,
Same here. Gearbox works fine, but chatter is very loud.
See my vid on YouTube:
Richard–
The original message included these comments:
It’s most likely the reverse idler gear/shaft/bearing…mine was
literally so loud that it made more noise than the engine at idle but
all worked fine. So, yeah, although not normal it is kinda typical.
In reply to a message from kingrichard sent Wed 18 Mar 2015:
I feel better knowing that I am not alone . Richard, the
noise is similar to mine but nowhere near as loud. I ran
the engine again today and it didn’t bother me so much.
Could be that is less noticeable after a while. I used the
Redline MT90 in the gearbox.
Most of today was spent re-aligning the stuff under my hood
so the hood would close without hitting the new AC hoses
and condenser brackets. Damn it was hot out there in full
sun,
Steve–
'68 2+2, '87 Benz SL, '60 Mini, '68 MGC
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from PKN sent Wed 18 Mar 2015:
Generally I thought noise when in neutral with the clutch
pushed down was typically a bearing issue on the gearbox
input shaft. I have exactly the same symptoms in my
Haflinger and read about it on a Landrover box that is based
on the Jag 4 speed.
Noise also not there when oil is cold but becomes audible
when oil is hot and thinner.
Garry–
Garrycol
Very Early 71 Series 3 OTS, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
Err, surely with the clutch depressed for all intents and purposes the input shaft isn’t spinning and even if there’s some light drag from the clutch mechanism, engaging any gear will stop it.
The classic rattle/whine from the E box is very typically from the reverse idler gear.Sent from my iPhone
In reply to a message from PKN sent Wed 18 Mar 2015:
Generally I thought noise when in neutral with the clutch
pushed down was typically a bearing issue on the gearbox
input shaft. I have exactly the same symptoms in my
Haflinger and read about it on a Landrover box that is based
on the Jag 4 speed.
Noise also not there when oil is cold but becomes audible
when oil is hot and thinner.
Garry
Garrycol
Very Early 71 Series 3 OTS, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Wed 18 Mar 2015:
Both of my 4.2 boxes sound like cement mixers and both are fully
rebuilt. It’s the reverse idler. This doesn’t detract from the
boxes function.
If you think that’s noisy you should listen to a Moss box in first
gear…–
The original message included these comments:
The classic rattle/whine from the E box is very typically from the reverse idler gear.
In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Wed 18 Mar 2015:
Opps - yes should have said when the clutch is NOT depressed.
So the when in neutral the reverse idler gear is engaged??–
Garrycol
Very Early 71 Series 3 OTS, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from PKN sent Wed 18 Mar 2015:
Hi,
You get used to it, and I only hear it when idle, not during
driving. But the chatter completely disappears when engaging the
clutch.
I will rebuild the gearbox this summer, and pay very extra attetion
to the reverse idler, which is the culprit. Also will install my
Overdrive.
I also have MT 90 as everybody.
Richard–
The original message included these comments:
In reply to a message from kingrichard sent Wed 18 Mar 2015:
I feel better knowing that I am not alone . Richard, the
noise is similar to mine but nowhere near as loud. I ran
the engine again today and it didn’t bother me so much.
Could be that is less noticeable after a while. I used the
Redline MT90 in the gearbox.
Steve
Original: surely with the clutch depressed for all intents and purposes the
input shaft isn’t spinning and even if there’s some light drag from the
clutch mechanism, engaging any gear will stop it.
G’Day Les,
I agree the input shaft is not spinning (much) with clutch pedal down on the
floor (especially if car is stationary and a gear is engaged)… but the
bearing in the back of the crank definitely is spinning on the end of the
(stationary?) input shaft if the engine is running. A few jabs at the
throttle while clutch is depressed in that circumstance should vary the
speed the bearing is rotating on the input shaft end and I would think give
some indication of whether that bearing is the culprit… or not.
Cheers, John B. 67 2+2 in Oz______________________________________________________
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In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Thu 19 Mar 2015:
My Moss box now has a noise like this too, FWIW. After
realizing what it was, I just dial it out of my awareness.
That’s what I do with any drivetrain noise unless it is
definitely getting worse or so loud it’s no longer
ignorable. You can spend a lot of fruitless cash trying to
get the car to sound like it’s not there, and it won’t last
if you actually drive it at all. Noises that have been
there for decades have done no damage. Ignore it.
Jerry
PS, the sound the Moss box makes in first gear is not a
noise, it’s a song ; -)–
Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from mouton sent Thu 19 Mar 2015:
The reverse idler seems the culprit but I just wanted to
clarify that the noise is only there when idling in neutral
with my foot OFF the clutch. It goes away when I depress
the clutch. I don’t hear the noise when driving the car but
to paraphrase Jerry, I am too lost in the song at that point
Steve–
'68 2+2, '87 Benz SL, '60 Mini, '68 MGC
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
Right, that’s because when the clutch is released, the idler spins.On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 12:30 PM, PKN brannan6@hotmail.com wrote:
In reply to a message from mouton sent Thu 19 Mar 2015:
The reverse idler seems the culprit but I just wanted to
clarify that the noise is only there when idling in neutral
with my foot OFF the clutch. It goes away when I depress
the clutch. I don’t hear the noise when driving the car but
to paraphrase Jerry, I am too lost in the song at that point
Steve
'68 2+2, '87 Benz SL, '60 Mini, '68 MGC
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from PKN sent Wed 18 Mar 2015:
Steve - welcome to vintage British motoring! I’d say normal.
There is a certain ‘‘industrial’’ character to our gearboxes.
I found mine to be quieter without synthetic oil. Once I put the
thicker mineral hypoid back in it quieted itself a bit.
Honey (as opposed to water) kept the rattling down. My theory at
least.
Dave–
1969 BRG OTS
Skaneateles, NY, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from PKN sent Wed 18 Mar 2015:
I have a copy of a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) dated
4/73 that may have addressed the issue. ‘‘Commencing at
gearbox number KL.4241 new countershaft needle roller
bearings (Part# C.38573)’’
And another TSB dated 3/74 ‘‘New layshaft (Part# C39665) of
revised material introduced at gearbox KL.7098. The new
layshaft is stamped EN.353-A on one end’’
Both of these TSB’s are specific to the Series 3. My V12 has
the same issue, and was manufactured prior to the TSB’s. I’d
be interested in hearing what owners of post TSB’s have to
say.–
The original message included these comments:
I finally completed my auto to manual 4 speed gearbox
change in my 4.2 2+2. The car runs great and I am very
pleased with it. One ‘‘problem’’ I have though, is that when
out of gear there is a rumble coming from the gearbox which
goes away when I depress the clutch. I first thought it
might be the release bearing adjustment but I disconnected
the clutch pushrod and the noise is there when the
actuating arm is fully forward or fully back.
P{lease tell me it is ‘‘normal’’ or at least not unusual. In
all other respects the gearbox operates smoothly and
quietly.
In reply to a message from matt63 sent Thu 19 Mar 2015:
May sound like a devil’s advocate here but you may want to
pop the tranny out and rebuild it while all wear parts are
still available and cheap. Think the synchros are only
$20ish from SNG… Porsche parts of same vintage are
astronomically more expensive…
Did mine back in 2011 and feel really safe and secure that I
did. Easy box to rebuild. Hardest part was getting
mainshaft out; have to pull it at a very specific angle.
Layshaft had decent wear too. My car has 58k original miles
(56.5k at time of rebuild) and there was considerable
depression at the rear of the mainshaft where the roller
bearings are. That’s the part that takes all the torque of
first gear. Really wish there was a way to install a second
set of roller bearings like on the early MGB three synchro
box.
Nice thing with the LWB chassis is that you can leave the
engine in situ, though the manual does not tell you this and
some purists scoff at the idea. SWB cars must pull bonnet
and engine.
Typical rebuild IMO should include layshaft, roller
bearings, synchros, gaskets. Heard the replacement bearings
for the late all synchro box suck, but don’t quote me… I
used my original bearings.
