[E-Type] Antisieze on splines?

I am pretty sure that I had read from this list or from some
literature that it was a good idea to use antisieze lubricant on
the wire wheel splines because it was much less messy than grease
(it tends not to ooze out from the spokes and you need to use a lot
less to get the desired effect). I was a our local show this
weekend and was telling this to a Healey owner who cringed and told
me never to use antisieze on the splines because it is abrasive.
Is this true that have I been mislead and is antisieze a definite
no, or is this ‘‘abrasive’’ thing just something we tell Healey
owners to keep them from finding out why our wheels are always
cleaner than theirs!
I’d like ot find out ASAP because I have just liberally applied
antisieze to the splines of my brand new Daytons.
Alex Jurgens
67 OTS 1E13469
80 MGB
Falmouth, NS CANADA–
Alex Jurgens
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Alex,

Rick Korn at Woodinville Sportscars (Rick is a Master Jaguar Mechanic
and races a '62 OTS) said the same thing about anitsieze being an
abrasive, and to never use it on the wheel splines.

Cheers,

Chuck Anderson
'64 FHC
890250

Alex Jurgens wrote:

I am pretty sure that I had read from this list or from some
literature that it was a good idea to use antisieze lubricant on
the wire wheel splines because it was much less messy than grease
(it tends not to ooze out from the spokes and you need to use a lot
less to get the desired effect). I was a our local show this
weekend and was telling this to a Healey owner who cringed and told
me never to use antisieze on the splines because it is abrasive.
Is this true that have I been mislead and is antisieze a definite
no, or is this ‘‘abrasive’’ thing just something we tell Healey
owners to keep them from finding out why our wheels are always
cleaner than theirs!
I’d like ot find out ASAP because I have just liberally applied
antisieze to the splines of my brand new Daytons.
Alex Jurgens
67 OTS 1E13469
80 MGB
Falmouth, NS CANADA

Alex Jurgens
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In reply to a message from Chuck Anderson sent Tue 27 Jul 2004:

Chuck,
Sorry, I can’t buy that for a second. With a term as generic
as anti-seize, you can’t make blanket statements like that, as
there are literally hundreds of different kinds of anti-seize.
Perhaps some are abrasive, but certainly many are not. In fact,
I’d guess only a very small percentage, if any, are abrasive.
After all, one of the uses for anti-seize is to prevent galling.
How do you do that with an abrasive? Pick a brand name, like
Loctite, go to the manufacturers website, and pick one based on
it’s specifications. Many of them are promoted as lubricants, to
be used in critical applications like jet engines and power plant
equipment, so they could hardly be abrasive.–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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2 Likes

Ray Livingston wrote:

In reply to a message from Chuck Anderson sent Tue 27 Jul 2004:

Chuck,
Sorry, I can’t buy that for a second. With a term as generic
as anti-seize, you can’t make blanket statements like that, as
there are literally hundreds of different kinds of anti-seize.

First off, good to have you back Ray, we thought you had dropped off into cyberspace somewhere!

Here’s what Permatex has for a web page for their “anti-seize-lubricant” :

http://tinyurl.com/i3q0

This is what I use on wheel splines, spark plugs, and anything else I want to take apart later.

The web page says it contains highly refined aluminum, copper and graphite lubricants.

Hardly sounds abrasive to me.

George Cohn
'70 OTS

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] Here’s what Permatex has for a web page for their
] “anti-seize-lubricant” :
]
] http://tinyurl.com/i3q0

George, you’re clearly behind the times. The thing these days is
hugeurl.com”. That same link, via that service:

http://hugeurl.com/?ZGIzMGM0NjE2MmNjZmJhODUxNTBmMWUzOWYyM2E5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If that’s not useful, I don’t know what is. Which may explain a lot.

Roger Los

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Well Ray, I don’t buy what you don’t buy. I respect Rick Korn’s
expertise on the subject and his years of professional Jaguar
experiemce. If you want to get into a debate on the subject, take it up
with him. In the meantime, I’ll continue using grease on the splines.

Chuck Anderson
'64 FHC
890250
Port Orchard, WA

Ray Livingston wrote:

In reply to a message from Chuck Anderson sent Tue 27 Jul 2004:

Chuck,
Sorry, I can’t buy that for a second. With a term as generic
as anti-seize, you can’t make blanket statements like that, as
there are literally hundreds of different kinds of anti-seize.
Perhaps some are abrasive, but certainly many are not. In fact,
I’d guess only a very small percentage, if any, are abrasive.
After all, one of the uses for anti-seize is to prevent galling.
How do you do that with an abrasive? Pick a brand name, like
Loctite, go to the manufacturers website, and pick one based on
it’s specifications. Many of them are promoted as lubricants, to
be used in critical applications like jet engines and power plant
equipment, so they could hardly be abrasive.

Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from Alex Jurgens sent Tue 27 Jul 2004:

I have two thoughts on this:

  1. Even if anti-seize WAS abrasive, putting it on wheel splines
    wouldn’t do any harm because the surfaces aren’t actually rubbing
    (unless the splines are worn already)

  2. What’s wrong with normal grease? You only need a tiny amount.
    If you’re seeing it escaping through the wheel spokes then you’re
    either using too much, or there’s a different problem.

For what it’s worth, I also use a very small smear of grease on the
spinner - both on the threads and on the part where it seats over
the wheel hub. That way you know (a) the spinner is tightening
properly and not sticking and (b) you’ll be able to get it off
again in 5 years’ time!–
'69 Series 2 2+2
Hertford, United Kingdom
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FWIW, I use white lithium grease on mine. Seems to stay pretty much fluid
and keeps the splines from sticking.

tom

[Original Message]
From: Chuck Anderson chuckcwu@earthlink.net
To: e-type@jag-lovers.org
Date: 7/27/04 3:17:35 AM
Subject: Re: [E-Type] Antisieze on splines?

Alex,

Rick Korn at Woodinville Sportscars (Rick is a Master Jaguar Mechanic
and races a '62 OTS) said the same thing about anitsieze being an
abrasive, and to never use it on the wheel splines.

Cheers,

Chuck Anderson
'64 FHC
890250

Alex Jurgens wrote:

I am pretty sure that I had read from this list or from some
literature that it was a good idea to use antisieze lubricant on
the wire wheel splines because it was much less messy than grease
(it tends not to ooze out from the spokes and you need to use a lot
less to get the desired effect). I was a our local show this
weekend and was telling this to a Healey owner who cringed and told
me never to use antisieze on the splines because it is abrasive.
Is this true that have I been mislead and is antisieze a definite
no, or is this ‘‘abrasive’’ thing just something we tell Healey
owners to keep them from finding out why our wheels are always
cleaner than theirs!
I’d like ot find out ASAP because I have just liberally applied
antisieze to the splines of my brand new Daytons.
Alex Jurgens
67 OTS 1E13469
80 MGB
Falmouth, NS CANADA

Alex Jurgens
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In reply to a message from Alex Jurgens sent Tue 27 Jul 2004:

In my years of working with:
A) cars with Rudge-Whitworth-style splined hubs, and
B) Anti-seize compounds, I can make the following assertions:
The use of any normal grease, be it anti-seize, lithium, moly, or
just plain old axle grease, checked and refreshed every 90 days or
so (less in dry climates/fewer wet miles) will assure your splines
won’t seize, ever.
Whether or not anti-seize is abrasise or not is irrelevant. Given a
respected mechanic’s opinion that it is, I’ll give the beneifit of
doubt to him and assume he’s done some reasearch and/or had
experience showing it does wear splines faster than normal grease.
In all cases, splines ought to be checked often enough not to worry
about it. Tweety’s splines and wheels are all original (160,000+
miles…HARD miles) and have only a wee bit of wear on them. All
that’s ever been used on them is old-fashioned hand grease. I’d not
use anti-seize only for these reasons; it’s more exspensive than
hand grease and time and experience tell me it’s not really needed,
given proper maintenance of your splines.
Now, as for spark plugs? For any of you who’ve had a VW (or Jag, or
any aluminum-headed vehicle) seize its plugs and had to remove the
engine to repair said threads, you’ll undersand why I NEVER
install ANY sparkling plug W/O anti-seize…ever.–
The original message included these comments:

Is this true that have I been mislead and is antisieze a definite
no, or is this ‘‘abrasive’’ thing just something we tell Healey
cleaner than theirs!
I’d like ot find out ASAP because I have just liberally applied
antisieze to the splines of my brand new Daytons.


Paul Wigton, 1963 FHC, called Tweety!
Brighton, CO, United States
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http://www.loctite.com/int_henkel/loctite_us/
binarydata/pdf/LT-3683AntiSeizeBroch.pdf

From the loctite website, they mention the zinc-oxide
one as non-abrasive which hints the others are
abrasive.=====

Chris Busch
@cbusch
http://www.geocities.com/cgbusch/

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In reply to a message from Chris Busch sent Tue 27 Jul 2004:

Chris,
Actually, though they make it very hard to find, there is one
product data sheet listing all the Loctite anti-seize products, and
they state they are all non-abrasive.–
The original message included these comments:

http://www.loctite.com/int_henkel/loctite_us/
binarydata/pdf/LT-3683AntiSeizeBroch.pdf

From the loctite website, they mention the zinc-oxide
one as non-abrasive which hints the others are
abrasive.
=====

Chris Busch


Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Tue 27 Jul 2004:

The brand I always use on plugs in alloy heads and on exhaust
fittings is called ‘Copa Slip’. It is one of the majors in the UK
and other brands I’ve come across look similar out of the pot or
the tube. It contains powdered/milled copper dust in a heavy oil
type base. Some may use a grease vehicle. I’ve seen similar
powdered aluminium silver greases and the stuff that came with my
Carillo con rods was a graphite type assembly compound you could
use in similar settings I’m sure.

Either way I believe they work by effectively depositing a layer of
soft copper/aluminium between the dissimilar metals (steel/alloy
for XK or bike plugs) or ferrous/ferrous on steel exhaust fittings
or plugs in cast iron heads.

The copper both serves to limit ferrous corrosion and also acts as
a lubricant in powder form, or an easy-break joint on, say, an
exhaust fastener that has dried out totally after long hot service.
Either way, copper is not an abrasive against other harder engine
metals (certainly not steel hubs/wheels either) and being a soft
metal it can’t be seized or burnt easily inside a threaded joint.

Frankly, I have occasionally used abrasives such wet and dry paper
or even coarse valve paste to stop things slipping (e.g.
increasing friction and grip under delicate alloy bodywork clamps)
and can’t imagine an abrasive antiseize matching a lubricating
antiseize. I guess somewherealong the line the guy in question came
across a grease with a powedered mineral filler of some kind or
maybe somebody somewhere once made an abrasive antiseize, but it
soundsl ike he is wide of the mark today. I intend using grease on
cost grounds alone and am sure antiseize would work fine. But he
must have some data from somewhere or else he is just plain mixed
up. Why not ask him? If he can’t substantiate his fear then
politely thank him and ignore that one bit of his wisdom. If he
does have evidence then let us know because I love to learn new
stuff.

The biggest problem I have with Copa Slip is avoiding stomping on
nearly full tubes. For some reason the karma in my garage has
always resulted in Red Hermetite, Solvol Autosol or Copa Slip tubes
jumping under my knee as I kneel, or jumping under my foot as U
stnad to wlak away from a job. Why IS that??? :-)–
Peter Crespin 94 X300 Daimler / 66 2+2 ‘E’
Buxton, United Kingdom
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In reply to a message from Peter Crespin sent Tue 27 Jul 2004:

Personally, I have a hard time seeing any potential abrasiveness as
a problem in this application anyway. It would only be an issue if
the parts were moving. If properly tightened, there should be no
movement. If there is movement, the splines are gonna wear out
pretty quick anyway, assuming the wheel doesn’t simply fall off
first.–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from Alex Jurgens sent Tue 27 Jul 2004:

Alex,
If it puts your mind at rest any I have just fitted my new Dayton’s
and I have used a Teflon based anti seize paste.
I would have used Copa slip as Pete Crespin has mentioned but this
new Teflon stuff is something else.
As for it oozing out of the splines I only smeared it over the
splines, if as suggested the grease was oozing ( oozing thats a
woody sounding word) it sounds as though there is heat being
produced somewhere causing the grease to thin out and melt.

Dave–
The original message included these comments:

I am pretty sure that I had read from this list or from some
literature that it was a good idea to use antisieze lubricant on
the wire wheel splines because it was much less messy than grease
(it tends not to ooze out from the spokes and you need to use a lot
less to get the desired effect). I was a our local show this
weekend and was telling this to a Healey owner who cringed and told
me never to use antisieze on the splines because it is abrasive.
Is this true that have I been mislead and is antisieze a definite
no, or is this ‘‘abrasive’’ thing just something we tell Healey
owners to keep them from finding out why our wheels are always
cleaner than theirs!


'61 OTS, I’ll do work for parts
Pershore, United Kingdom
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In reply to a message from Alex Jurgens sent Tue 27 Jul 2004:

I use a clear, high vacuum silicone grease from Dow that comes in a
tube, they also make some clear silicone mold release that works
well too. You clean all of the dried and dirty grease off of your
hubs and splines apply some of this stuff and it stays transparent,
it never dries, or washes away. Any heavy consistancy, clear
fluorosilicone grease should work well.

http://www.krackeler.com/products/494/1258

My 2 cents–
Doug 68 OTS, XKEDATA #1E17103
WA, United States
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In reply to a message from Alex Jurgens sent Tue 27 Jul 2004:

Gentlemen, aren’t we missing something here – if you use
grease and do not regularly remove your wheels and
clean/regrease the splines you could end up having great
difficulty in getting the wheels off. The problem is that
the grease tends to harden over time and basically begins to
act a bit like ‘‘glue’’. I myself had quite a lot of dificulty
removing a wheel from my '61 a few years ago after getting a
flat and the grease on that wheel was only about a year old.
Perhaps this was just a single unusual occurrence, but being
stuck by the side of the road because I couldn’t get my
wheel off, in 100 degree temperatures, certainly made an
impression on me!

In the numerous discussions on this list over the years, I
can’t recall ever hearing of anyone reporting having such a
problem with anti-seize, which is why I decided to go this
route myself.

Of course, if you use grease and regularly remove the
wheels, clean the splines and regrease etc, you should not
have a problem…

Just my .02–
The original message included these comments:

I am pretty sure that I had read from this list or from some
literature that it was a good idea to use antisieze lubricant on
the wire wheel splines because it was much less messy than grease
(it tends not to ooze out from the spokes and you need to use a lot
less to get the desired effect). I was a our local show this


Ray Sharp… '61FHC & '71S2OTS
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In reply to a message from Ray sent Wed 28 Jul 2004:

Ray,
Again, I think ‘‘grease’’ is such a generic term, covering suc a
huge range of different formulations, you really can’t make
generalizations about their performance. Granted some greases
will harden in time (You shoulda seen the stuff inside my left rear
hub when it died two years ago! It was like concrete!) However,
I’ve always greased by hubs with Molybdenum grease, and near as I
can tell, that stuff never goes hard. I’ve had my wheels on for
up to three years at a time, and they’ve always slid right off. In
fact, I’ve been working my way through the same tub of molybdenum
grease for the last 30 years, and it’s still soft as can be,
despite even sitting open in ym garage for sometimes years at a
time. I believe the same would be true for lithium grease. At
least some plain old petroleum greases, I think, do tend to get
hard, sometimes rather quickly. But more modern ones do not.–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from Alex Jurgens sent Tue 27 Jul 2004:

The object is to keep the splines from rusting, because
they always have some clearance where water can be trapped.
I have put a small amount of regular grease on mine and it
worked fine for me for 35 years.
Walter–
The original message included these comments:

I am pretty sure that I had read from this list or from some
literature that it was a good idea to use antisieze lubricant on
the wire wheel splines because it was much less messy than grease


69E / 78XJ6 / 73 VW Ghia
albuquerque/new mexico, United States
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In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Wed 28 Jul 2004:

Ray - we must have bought our greases at the same time! I bought
one tub of Castrol heavy grease and a can of Duckhams high melting
point lithium grease.

The heavy grease has set pretty hard but is still useable for heavy
sticky jobs. The lithium grease is still sloppy as the day it was
bought. Moly grease is the same, as you say.

You’re right to point out that terms like anti-seize or grease
cover a whole range of products of widely varying properties. Maybe
this is one factor behind the mechanic’s warning about ‘abrasive’
antiseize.–
Peter Crespin 94 X300 Daimler / 66 2+2 ‘E’
Buxton, United Kingdom
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In reply to a message from Peter Crespin sent Wed 28 Jul 2004:

Hey guys, good forum and thanks for the input. Based on what I
read here it seems that antisieze is a fine (very fine) suspension
of metal in a petroleum (grease) product. Given that the particles
must be so fine since you can not feel any grittiness when rubbing
it between your fingers, it may be abrasive but not to an extent
that we would ever have to worry about. And as was pointed out,
the wheels are tightened down so much that there is no movement
once the wheels are mounted. Based on this I am not too worried
about ruining my wheels and splined hubs.
Thanks as always,
Alex Jurgens
67 OTS 1E13469 - BRG with antisieze lubricant on the splines!
80 MGB–
Alex Jurgens
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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