In a message dated 7/27/04 3:11:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, resharp@comcast.net writes:
<< The problem is that
the grease tends to harden over time and basically begins to
act a bit like ‘‘glue’’. I myself had quite a lot of dificulty
removing a wheel from my '61 a few years ago after getting a
flat and the grease on that wheel was only about a year old.
Perhaps this was just a single unusual occurrence, but being
stuck by the side of the road because I couldn’t get my >>
In my business (heavy machinery) some equipment used very large electric
motors with a splined output shaft which meshed with a broached gearbox input
shaft.The mechanics is not unlike our spline drive wheels. After a couple of years
of operation, it was impossible to disassemble them and it became common
practice to cut up the gearbox input shaft with a cutting rig in order to save the
motor, then have the $40,000 gearbox overhauled and the shaft replaced.
This was a very expensive operation. As I studied the problem more, I came to
understand that the problem was caused by fretting corrosion. As the tiny
metal particles wear off the splines, they oxidize. When they oxidize there is a
gigantic increase in their size. Eventually the products of corrosion would
continue growing and lsieze the input splined shaft to the broached output
shaft.
The solution was to frequently disassemble, clean and use an anti-fretting
copper based lubricant witn an EP additive.
In a message dated 7/27/04 10:29:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rayl@atc.creative.com writes:
<< If properly tightened, there should be no
movement. >>
Ray, see my earlier note-my experience has been that fretting corrosion is
the nemesis of all splined drives-auto or otherwise! There is always some amount
of relative movement. Its a pretty common problem with hydraulic pumps etc.
In reply to a message from Alex Jurgens sent Wed 28 Jul 2004:
Alex - the abrasiveness or lack of it does not depend on the size
of the particles. Fine diamond dust would still be more abrasive
than its close cousin graphite at much larger particle size.
Abrasiveness depends on the hardness and particle shape of the
abrasive versus the softness of the material being abraded. So
walnut shells will blast remove some paint but not the body metal,
whereas oxide grit will remove metal also. Your fingertips can
abrade your cornea but not your wheel splines. Copper could abrade
Perspex (Plexiglass) but not a cam lobe.
As for abrasive antiseize, I don’t get it, although I can just
about conceive of some kind of potion which would ‘abrade’ i.e.
smooth the threaded fasteners as they turn against each other and
therefore in some way help ease their release, but I can’t see that
doing much at one tightening and abrasive antiseize seems
counterintuitive.
But no, if I did come across an abrasive antiseize I wouldn’t use
it on wheel splines as I’m sure there must be some miniscule
relative movement in extreme load reversals? Otherwise why have any
splines at all if the inner and outer tapers were a guaranteed
solid mounting? Are we saying no correctly-fitted and greased wheel
would wear its hub splines, ever, no matter how long the
continued use? Maybe so, maybe not.
Put it this way, when splines are worn on other applications I’ve
come across, you can sometimes feel/hear a clonk but the part
doesn’t actually come undone, though granted it could be argued
that had they been done tight in the first place the slack would
never have developed. And in any case, pulling and replacing the
wheel causes longitudinal movement so there’d be some slight wear
that way if you used an abrasive paste. Sure, a good taper fit is a
solid locked fitting, and a Woodruff key is belt and braces like
the splines are, but it’d be interesting to put some kind of glass
stain gauge or something across the hub and wheel to see if there
ever actually was that almost imperceptible movement in hard use?–
Peter Crespin 94 X300 Daimler / 66 2+2 ‘E’
Buxton, United Kingdom
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from chuck goolsbee sent Wed 28 Jul 2004:
Chuck,
Pictures, we want pictures (especially the bubble gum bit)!
Andrew
(the suspense is killing me)–
The original message included these comments:
I have decided to settle this debate for good, sacrifice my car to
the altar of science and remove all my wheels to:
place some lithium grease on my right front wheel splines
wedge some 220 grit sandpaper around my left front wheel splines
(it is, without a doubt, ‘‘abrasive’’)
slather anti-sieze on my left rear wheel splines
just put my right rear back on with no surface prep
Stick my head in gravy, wash it out with bubble gum and send it to the Navy.
Knock them all back on and drive!
I will report back with findings at a later date.
–
1968 3.8S
Zurich, Switzerland
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
Ray,
Aside from the antisieze issue, the theory of how the spline/wire wheel
system actually works comes up sometimes. Remember many discussions
about whether the wheels will tighten themselves yada yada yada. So
while not being in disagreement with what you say it begs to question;
hypothetically speaking, why do we need the splines if there is no movement?
pauls 67ots>>>>>>>>>
From: “Ray Livingston” rayl@atc.creative.com
Subject: Re: [E-Type] Antisieze on splines?
In reply to a message from Peter Crespin sent Tue 27 Jul 2004:
Personally, I have a hard time seeing any potential abrasiveness as
a problem in this application anyway. It would only be an issue if
the parts were moving. If properly tightened, there should be no
movement. If there is movement, the splines are gonna wear out
pretty quick anyway, assuming the wheel doesn’t simply fall off
first.
You mean that red dust that falls out of all the frozen pieces we have to bang on for hours to separate
pauls 67ots
In my business (heavy machinery) some equipment used very large electric
motors with a splined output shaft which meshed with a broached gearbox input
shaft.The mechanics is not unlike our spline drive wheels. After a couple of years
of operation, it was impossible to disassemble them …
As I studied the problem more, I came to
understand that the problem was caused by fretting corrosion. As the tiny
metal particles wear off the splines, they oxidize. When they oxidize there is a
gigantic increase in their size…
In a message dated 7/28/04 7:37:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jagdood@earthlink.net writes:
<< You mean that red dust that falls out of all the frozen pieces we have to
bang on for hours to separate
pauls 67ots
That’s the stuff! That red powder is a whole lot more volume than the steel
from which it came. Imagine what would happen if the space between the splined
hub and shaft were completely filled with water, then the water froze (with
its inherent expansion). The fretting corrosion phenomena is analagous. Two
industrial fixes I have used are to hard chrome plate the mating surfaces, or to
use a copper based lubricant.
In reply to a message from Alex Jurgens sent Tue 27 Jul 2004:
my dad, an engineer, used to talk about rolled v machined splines,
the implication being that rolled splines had more play, I’m sure
the Jags are machined, Comments?
Duncan Paterson–
The original message included these comments:
literature that it was a good idea to use antisieze lubricant on
Rolled is always stronger (tougher) than machined because the “grain” of the steel is deformed to shape rather than cut through in machining. I do believe this also corresponds to corrosion resistance also.
Llynn,
Maybe a google search brought up the old thread.
What hasn’t changed in 15 years, regardless of anti seize or grease it winds upon your newly cleaned chrome wheels!
My point was that @Altaknight just added to a thread that is 15 years old, and responded to @duncan_Paterson who (if you check his ID) hasn’t posted since October 2013. The evidence would suggest that he wasn’t exactly waiting for a response…
I use a very small amount of Copaslip on the splines, and have left wheels on for more than a year, and they’ve always come off without much of a fight.
Messing witcha!