[E-Type] Care with fuel

E-Type
1

Hello all, at our club meeting last night the E type
register secretary detailed a ‘‘bad fuel’’ story. On the run
to Melbourne for the recent National Rally one hapless E
type owner bought some doughy fuel, from a ‘‘no name’’
station, only to find the rubber discs on carb jet
assemblies began disintegrating further along the road.
The assembled experts diagnosed ethanol in the fuel. In
Australia we have various grades: 91, 94, 95, 98 and 100
in some locations. Most of us tend to use 98 with nil
ethanol. Aware the octane metrics differ in different
parts of the world. Just FYI. Also, check out the new
website www.jaguar.org.au - Paul–
Paul Breen
Sydney '62 E FHC, '72 ,XJ6 swb, Australia
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2

In reply to a message from Breen60 sent Wed 16 Jul 2014:

The assembled experts were probably wrong, although
‘doughy fuel’ is a new one on me. I cannot conceive of a
road fuel for general sale that would dissolve diaphragms
shortly after fill up. The diaphragms may have been shot
already and on the point of failure.

Pete–
The original message included these comments:

to Melbourne for the recent National Rally one hapless E
type owner bought some doughy fuel, from a ‘‘no name’’
station, only to find the rubber discs on carb jet
assemblies began disintegrating further along the road.
The assembled experts diagnosed ethanol in the fuel. In

–
1E75339 66 D, 1R27190 70 FHC,
Gaithersburg, Maryland, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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3

In reply to a message from Breen60 sent Wed 16 Jul 2014:

Hi Paul, While I don’t know what’’ doughy’’ means,clearly it
implies that something is Up. To blame things on ethanol is
very common these days…just look on U Tube to see that
all manner of woes attributed to ethanol. Sadly most of it
is just a fad I suspect, and I completely agree withe Pete’s
comment.Folks adverse reaction to ethanol, which may be
quite valid, is more likely based on political reasons,
which no doubt have been voiced clearly and often on the J-L
pub!–
The original message included these comments:

to Melbourne for the recent National Rally one hapless E
type owner bought some doughy fuel, from a ‘‘no name’’
station, only to find the rubber discs on carb jet
assemblies began disintegrating further along the road.
Paul Breen
Sydney '62 E FHC, '72 ,XJ6 swb, Australia

–
John M Holmes 1973 E Type SIII Supra 5Sp, 70 SII OTS 05XJ8L
Ontario, Canada
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4

Hummmmmm I, as have most US drivers, have been using ethanol laden fuel for a long time. We haven’t had carb jet rubber problems to my knowledge.

tom---- Breen60 pauljbreen@optusnet.com.au wrote:

=============
Hello all, at our club meeting last night the E type
register secretary detailed a ‘‘bad fuel’’ story. On the run
to Melbourne for the recent National Rally one hapless E
type owner bought some doughy fuel, from a ‘‘no name’’
station, only to find the rubber discs on carb jet
assemblies began disintegrating further along the road.
The assembled experts diagnosed ethanol in the fuel. In
Australia we have various grades: 91, 94, 95, 98 and 100
in some locations. Most of us tend to use 98 with nil
ethanol. Aware the octane metrics differ in different
parts of the world. Just FYI. Also, check out the new
website www.jaguar.org.au - Paul

Paul Breen
Sydney '62 E FHC, '72 ,XJ6 swb, Australia
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5

In reply to a message from Tom Felts sent Wed 16 Jul 2014:

Perhaps expected your responses - thanks - will feed back.
In some parts of Australia ‘‘doughy’’ means ‘‘suspect’’. We
might be a precious down here. Paul–
The original message included these comments:

Hummmmmm I, as have most US drivers, have been using ethanol laden fuel for a long time. We haven’t had carb jet rubber problems to my knowledge.
tom

–
Paul Breen
Sydney '62 E FHC, '72 ,XJ6 swb, Australia
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6

In reply to a message from Breen60 sent Wed 16 Jul 2014:

There are definitely problems caused by the alcohol content
in modern fuel especially vehicles and machines that are not
used all the time. It’s probably not a problem for modern
cars though.

The two main ones from my own experience are the eventual
disintegration of rubber and plastic items in the fuel
system. Even the special tygon fuel tubing used on some
small engines will crack and fall apart.

The other probably depends more on the local humidity
because the alcohol will absorb any moisture from the air
which will then later separate into water in the bottom of
float chambers if the motor is left for some time, corroding
the metal and blocking jets.

It’s maybe best to try to ascertain which gas stations sell
ethanol free fuel. Here, Shell Premium and one or two others
are ethanol free. You can also do a simple test to check if
the gas contains ethanol.–
Clive, '62 Coupe 860320
Ontario, Canada
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7

In reply to a message from Clive Wilkinson sent Wed 16 Jul 2014:

Alas, in much of the US ethanol free fuel is no longer
available. I believe I live 100 miles from the nearest
filling station with it.

In some areas of the U.S. the only place that sells it is
the Farmers Co-Op… which is a bit ironic all things
considered.–
Geo Hahn 1969 OTS 4.2
Mt Lemmon, Arizona, United States
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8

In reply to a message from Geo H sent Wed 16 Jul 2014:

Only a ‘‘Bit’’ ironic George? You are too generous. LoL!

In my opinion I would find and use Ethanol-free fuels
whenever possible in cars older than about 1985. There are
issues with older materials’ comparability with the ethanol,
particularly swelling soft goods and a few that will
decompose. At the minimum I would use ethanol free fuel
with a stabilizer when storing a car for longer than a week
or two. As previously said ethanol is hygroscopic and will
absorb water, with all the attendant corrosion issues. If
you keep the ethanol from sitting too long in the fuel
system you will limit the amount of water absorbed.–
The original message included these comments:

In some areas of the U.S. the only place that sells it is
the Farmers Co-Op… which is a bit ironic all things
considered.

–
Doug- 1968 Series 1.5 E-Type OTS 1E16060
Denver, CO, United States
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9

In reply to a message from Clive Wilkinson sent Wed 16 Jul 2014:

There are several online sites that provide locations for E
free fuel, one such link is attached. There are none in my
state.

http://tinyurl.com/3czfsdl

Has anyone tried this product? I have used the regular
formulation for years, but this one is directed
specifically at the water retention properties of E fuel.

http://tinyurl.com/pz4mu7x--
The original message included these comments:

It’s maybe best to try to ascertain which gas stations sell
ethanol free fuel. Here, Shell Premium and one or two others

–
Ralph, 1970 FHC, 1R27295
Coastal NJ, United States
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10

In reply to a message from Tom Felts sent Wed 16 Jul 2014:

Paul,

Some older carb diaphragms (black rubber?) may be affected,
but the more recent (i.e. last 20 years?) with blue nitrile
rubber diaphragms don’t seem to be affected – mine have
been fine for decades. I have never worried about ethanol,
and I understand that for a while we used MTBE in there but
when that was a problem we went to ethanol and apparently
have a lot in our fuel. I’ve used it without concern
since it became available. Politically I’m ag’in’ it, but
what, me worry? Works for me mechanically.

A 3.8 E-Type has nylon fuel pipe which is not affected;
beside the diaphragm the only other pieces of rubber would
be the Viton tipped needles and seats, the gasket on the
glass filter, and perhaps rubber inside the fuel pump.
Later cars probably similar but I don’t know them in detail.

Jerry–
Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
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11

In reply to a message from RGK sent Wed 16 Jul 2014:

Here’s a simple test to determine if gas contains ethanol.

Put a small amount of water in a clear container, mark the
level, then add about 3 or 3 times as much gas. Shake it up,
wait a minute of so, then check the water level. If it has
risen, the difference is the amount of ethanol the gas
contained. If it doesn’t rise, it’s ethanol free.

I keep cans of ethanol free gas for my boats and all my
small engined machines. The E-Type uses premium which I can
get ethanol free locally.–
Clive, '62 Coupe 860320
Ontario, Canada
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12

In reply to a message from mouton sent Wed 16 Jul 2014:

I’m with Jerry - we’ve had 10% Ethanol gas in CA for many,
many years. I’ve never had a single problem in any of my
cars, lawnmowers, etc. And I’ve never taken any precautions
before storing them for the winter - no Sat-bil, no
additives of any kind, no draining the tanks. etc. All
start right up in the spring. The diaphragms, float valves,
etc in my SUs are now over 15 years old with zero problems.
The ‘‘damage’’ caused by Ethanol in fuel, at least at 10% or
less, is WAAAAAAAAYYYYYY over-blown. Like Jerry, I agree it
is stupid politics, but it will do absolutely no harm unless
you have rubber parts in your fuel system that are at least
30 years old. I remember when I worked at Ford and Chrysler
in the late '70s, they were already using Ethanol-compatible
rubber and plastic in the fuel systems.–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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13

In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Wed 16 Jul 2014:

‘‘we’ve had 10% Ethanol gas in CA for many,
many years.’’

That’s not true, is it.

California, whilst being a major producer of ethanol,
actually had much less ethanol content in their gas than
most other states until much more recently.

Besides, the fact that you haven’t experienced a problem
doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. How humid is it in Ca, for
example compared to places like Florida… or Sydney, where
the OP comes from?

I guess I must be imagining all the carburetor float
chambers I’ve had to clean out lately and all the cracked up
fuel lines I’ve had to replace.–
Clive, '62 Coupe 860320
Ontario, Canada
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14

In reply to a message from Clive Wilkinson sent Wed 16 Jul 2014:

According to the CARB website, California gas has had 10%
ethanol since the start of 2010 - so yes, not as long as
some other states.

As for California being a major producer of ethanol, the
statistics I’ve seen don’t bear this out. It is ranked 15 in
ethanol producing capacity for 2014 at 223M Gals/year. This
compares with Iowa (3748M), Nebraska (1906M), Illinois
(1374M).

As I’ve commented before, most of the comments on this list
from California suggest that Ethanol is not a problem here.
However, I’m not inclined to believe that everyone else who
has had problems is deluded. I can only assume that other
factors (particularly the low humidity in most of CA), and
the different formulation of CA gas (for which we pay
mightily at the pump), are at play.

-David–
http://tinyurl.com/b4fdupp XK140MC OTS, S2 XKE OTS, XK8 OTS
Monterey CA, United States
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15

In reply to a message from Clive Wilkinson sent Wed 16 Jul 2014:

Clive,

Yes, it is absolutely true! From the California Air
Resources Board website:

''How much ethanol is in the gasoline I buy in California?

Currently most gasoline contains 10 percent ethanol by
volume.’’

This is per regulations that went into effect in 2007. Even
though Ethanol is not legally REQUIRED, it has been in the
vast majority of the gasoline sold here for many, many
years. It was there even before the regulations changed in
2007. You’d be hard-pressed to find a gas pump that does
NOT have a sticker on it telling you that the fuel it
dispenses contains Ethanol. There is no-Ethanol gas sold in
California, buy you have to work to find it.

As far as humidity, in the mountains where I live it is VERY
humid much of the year. Our ground is saturated much of the
winter, due to the large amount of rainfall we receive (as
much as 100+ inches/year). We get morning fog throughout
the year (which is what keeps our many gigantic Redwood
trees alive). It’s very common to see houses with moss
growing on the roof.

I’ve never known ANYONE who has had any physical proof
whatsoever of damage done to their engine by Ethanol. Just
lots of speculation, based on what everyone just just KNOWS
to be true - that Ethanol WILL destroy your fuel system. I
don’t buy it.–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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16

FWIW, I have 3 year old ethanol containing gas in my Spitfire and it starts and runs just fine–it is a 68.

tom---- Clive Wilkinson clive.wilkinson@sympatico.ca wrote:

=============
In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Wed 16 Jul 2014:

‘‘we’ve had 10% Ethanol gas in CA for many,
many years.’’

That’s not true, is it.

California, whilst being a major producer of ethanol,
actually had much less ethanol content in their gas than
most other states until much more recently.

Besides, the fact that you haven’t experienced a problem
doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. How humid is it in Ca, for
example compared to places like Florida… or Sydney, where
the OP comes from?

I guess I must be imagining all the carburetor float
chambers I’ve had to clean out lately and all the cracked up
fuel lines I’ve had to replace.

Clive, '62 Coupe 860320
Ontario, Canada
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17

In reply to a message from Clive Wilkinson sent Wed 16 Jul 2014:

I use ethanol free gas, available at half a dozen local
stations, in my gas powered outdoor tools. I also use a
stabilizer in the equipment that doesn’t require a gas/oil
premix.

Overkill? A waste of money since the ethanol free stuff is
about forty cents a gallon more? Maybe, but at the least
I’m buying some peace of mind.–
The original message included these comments:

I keep cans of ethanol free gas for my boats and all my
small engined machines. The E-Type uses premium which I can

–
John Walker, No E-Type at present
Russellville, Arkansas, United States
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18

In reply to a message from davidxk sent Wed 16 Jul 2014:

Me neither, but X happening and X being attributable to Y,
are two different concepts.

The first half dozen motorbikes I had as a kid were non-
runners when I got them. I knew enough to clean out the
carbs and set the points etc and decoke them. Memory from
45 years ago may be playing tricks, but those vehicles and
a long string of dozens of later purchases commonly had
gunked-up carbs, lines and pretty much everything else.
Rubber lines were often cracked, plastic clear ones had
shrunken and gone hard, o-rings were often perished and
alloy float chambers and even brass jets were
gummed/scaled or corroded depending on circumstances. All
of that happened before anyone thought of putting ethanol
in road fuel.

I’m not saying fuel systems don’t get problems today, but
I am saying that the occurence of fuel system problems
with 10% ethanol does not seem to have changed very much
in my anecdotal experience. The latest was a Honda-powered
cement mixer that last ran in about 2009 and sure enough
it didn’t want to start a few weeks ago. It had only ever
had alcohol fuel in my ownership (c10 yrs?) and was of
course bone dry. I cleaned the carb the usual way (noted
the typical white powdery residue one sees with alcohol
fuels) and it started right up.

I normally have a range of vehicles or small engines that
are over-wintered and I always mean to buy fuel stabiliser
but have never actually got round to it. So far, my stuff
has started up next season without problems and the last
two years I’ve lived in a very humid climate. The cement
mixer used to be fine as well but 4-5 years is asking for
trouble. Maybe I’m living on borrowed time or maybe next
year will be the same as this.

I have, on the other hand, occasionally put a half litre
or 250 ml of pharmacy alcohol in tanks that have somehow
got water inside and I’ve done that to get rid of the
water by helping it mix with fuel and pass through the
engine.

But do I want 15% or more alcohol gasoline? No way.

Pete–
The original message included these comments:

However, I’m not inclined to believe that everyone else who
has had problems is deluded. I can only assume that other
factors (particularly the low humidity in most of CA), and

–
1E75339 66 D, 1R27190 70 FHC,
Gaithersburg, Maryland, United States
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19

In reply to a message from PeterCrespin sent Wed 16 Jul 2014:

‘‘Trees make the wind blow by waving their branches’’

Causal relationships can be tricky things to identify,
especially from anecdotal evidence.

A certain formulation of brake fluid also suffers from
conclusions based on failures that occurred after its use.

One post-ethanol precaution I do take is a manual fuel pump
switch that lets me cut the fuel a block from home so by
the time I park in the garage the bowls are nearly empty,
the (ZS) floats are dangling and the valves are open.
Seems to have eliminated the occasional stuck valve I was
getting.–
The original message included these comments:

Me neither, but X happening and X being attributable to Y,
are two different concepts.

–
Geo Hahn 1969 OTS 4.2
Mt Lemmon, Arizona, United States
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20

In reply to a message from Breen60 sent Wed 16 Jul 2014:

I can’t speak to others experiences, but I changed the fuel
pump in my 1964 E-Type in April of this year. It sat in a
tank 1/2 full of California Shell premium and was run 4
times before shipping it to Colorado. When it arrived in
Colorado it started briefly before shutting down as no fuel
was making it to the engine. I pulled the pump out and the
new rubber gasket on the fuel pump was the consistency of
warm chewed gum. It was dripping from the pump. I’m
guessing it is the ethanol, but it could just be bad karmic
vibes from California gas. Either way I’m swapping the pump
out for a new one (hopefully under warranty) and replacing
the gas with happy ethanol free Colorado gas.
Bruce–
JDBarrister
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