[E-Type] Does anyone have a part # for K & N filters

In reply to a message from Paul Spurlock sent Fri 17 Jun 2005:

Paul,
That’s true only if you also have the little blue lights
underneath the car, and lots of stickers. :-)–
The original message included these comments:

Now Ray, you know that simply isn’t true… why, the 4 banger rice rockets (when coupled with tin can exhaust tip) gain about 80hp.
pauls 67ots


Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from broken anvil sent Thu 16 Jun 2005:

Seems like I made it a little late to the party. I’m definitely in
the ‘‘NO K&N’s’’ camp. I’ve read a couple of studies and test
reports that show (1) no increase in HP from using a supposed low
restriction filter and (2) significant increase in the amount and
size of particles entering the engine. Since I plan on keeping the
cars and running them for a long time, I’d rather stick with the
stock setup. It provides all the breathing that our engines need
with triple SU’s.

You continue to fight the good fight, Wiggy. I’m right here with
ya.

Steve–
The original message included these comments:

I would like to have 3 K&N filters on my SU-HD8 carbs, does anyone
know the part # . Or what is the bore size of these carbs , so that
K&N Tech can help me out. Any help is greatly appreciated.

broken anvil


Steve Weinstein
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In reply to a message from broken anvil sent Thu 16 Jun 2005:

Geez , what alot of wind over air filters LOL !!! I do have the
original set up and will most likely reuse it.
Off road motorcycles and trucks have used the oiled gauze
filtration units for years, with no measureable increase in engine
wear. Thanks for all the advice.–
broken anvil
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In reply to a message from broken anvil sent Fri 17 Jun 2005:

I believe you’ll find that K&N filter systems were VERY
carefully designed – not so much to remove dirt from air
but to money from our pockets! It is truly a snake-oil
marketing gimmick.

Richard Liggitt–
'70 E Roadster 1R11998, '98 XK8 Roadster, '02 Mini Cooper
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In a message dated 6/17/2005 9:02:27 AM Pacific Standard Time,
rcliggitt@cox.net writes:
believe you’ll find that K&N filter systems were VERY
carefully designed – not so much to remove dirt from air
but to money from our pockets! It is truly a snake-oil
marketing gimmick.

Imagine if STP could convince people that STP was the best air filter oil
for K&N filters.

Best, Mike Moore

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In reply to a message from MMoore8425@aol.com sent Fri 17 Jun 2005:

Hi All-
It seems like everytime the K&N topic comes up, there is
confusion about whether we are talking just about filters or
also about modifying (or eliminating) the air boxes-2
different topics. Paper or K&N? Its really not that big of a
deal, only slight differences in filtration and air flow in
all the tests I’ve seen. What is a larger consideration (as
Peter suggests) is changing the air flow characteristics by
changing or eliminating the air boxes and I for one tend to
like the idea.
The first thing every MGB owner (who wants more power) does
to gain more HP is get rid of the stupid air boxes (complete
with ram pipes!) thus gaining 10 HP on a dyno, but not
because they are using K&N’s (the replacement of choice since
they’re aren’t many others) but because of better flow
without the stock cans.
In fact, sometimes you have to go to richer needles on the
SU’s to compensate for the increased air flow.
No MG owner (like some Jag owners) ever waxes on about how
the engineers ‘‘must of known what they were doing so I won’t
mess with it’’. There were compromises made and in my case, I
think the long narrow rams on my SIII V-12 were designed
primarlily to get cooler air from the front and reduce intake
noise and are horribly inefficient as proper intake devices.
A 3/4’’ opening traveling 2 feet, through a square box filled
with restrictive pollution/warming devices, turning 90
degrees in the carbs, then traveling another foot through the
manifold ram pipes, feeding 6 cylinders (each)! I have
replaced with K&N’s with built-in short, curving rams on the
backplate and get better torque at higher RPM’s with no
difference in the low or mid-range (this is all subjective, I
have no dyno results). I can’t speak for the triple SU or
dual Berg set-ups on series 1 and 2 but you have to ask if
the air boxes are so wonderfully designed, why don’t
competetion E-Types, D-Types, etc. use them and why don’t
Webers have big clunky air boxes instead of short ram pipes?
I just can’t get away from believing air should get in as
fast and at the greatest volume possible as long as the rest
of the system can use it properly. IMHO , its not the filters
that matter much, its the overall flow.–
Mike King '72 2+2
Phoenix, Az., United States
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] The first thing every MGB owner (who wants more power) does
] to gain more HP is get rid of the stupid air boxes (complete
] with ram pipes!) thus gaining 10 HP on a dyno, but not
] because they are using K&N’s (the replacement of choice since
] they’re aren’t many others) but because of better flow
] without the stock cans.

Ummm. 10hp? That’s 10%. I’m owned 15 MGBs, half with stock air cleaners and
half with aftermarket filters of some sort, and I’ve never noticed a
difference. In fact, the chrome “pancake” filters you used to see a lot were
definitely worse than the stock filters.

] I can’t speak for the triple SU or
] dual Berg set-ups on series 1 and 2 but you have to ask if
] the air boxes are so wonderfully designed, why don’t
] competetion E-Types, D-Types, etc. use them and why don’t
] Webers have big clunky air boxes instead of short ram pipes?
] I just can’t get away from believing air should get in as
] fast and at the greatest volume possible as long as the rest
] of the system can use it properly. IMHO , its not the filters
] that matter much, its the overall flow.

Weight would be one reason, and race engines generally don’t get filtered
air in any case as their service life isn’t appreciably shortened by
inhaling dust, unlike a road car.

I think there is some misunderstanding here, though maybe it’s me with it.
The normal E-Type doesn’t have any problem breathing through the stock
filter and air can. It does provide some “proven advantages”:

  • It pulls cool air from the front of the car, as opposed to “hot” air from
    the engine bay. Cool air can make a huge difference in the amount of charge
    you can get into a cylinder.
  • It has built-in ram pipes with proper radius edges
  • It has a plenum chamber, which IS an advantage on a multi-carb setup,
    generally.

I think you’d REALLY have to hot up a XK engine to use up the air capacity
of the stock setup. If you like the look of the K&N, more power to you, but
I don’t think there is any real advantage.

Roger Los

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In reply to a message from Mike King sent Sat 18 Jun 2005:

Mike,
I don’t think anyone has said the stock setup can’t be
improved upon, but simply tossing it and replacing it with
something that’s essentially untested is almost guaranteed not to
increase performance. The whole point is, without testing, you
have no idea what the performance impact will be. The stock setup
was extensively tested. The K&N setups are virtually un-tested.
Peter is absolutely right. Smoothing out the airflow can
have a significant positive effect. Simply slapping a couple of
filter directly on the carb inlets can have a significant
negative effect. Again, without testing, you have no idea what the
effect will be. Simply providing the appearance of increased
airflow is absolutely no guarantee of increased performance, and
quite often just the opposite, due to side-effects like the
introduction of turbulent airflow.
People are amazingly good at convincing themselves of the
benefits of modifications they’ve made themselves, or paid a lot of
money to have other make for them. Testing done several years ago
by, IIRC, one of the big car magazines, found that something like
60-70% of the ‘‘performance’’ modifications people made to their cars
actually decreased performance. The placebo effect is very much
alive and well when it comes to performance modifications, and
conventional wisdom, as least as often as not, is dead wrong.
Again, without objective testing, you just don’t know. There are
no hard and fast rules.
As for the amount of dirt they allow through - Per K&Ns own
website, their filters stop 98% of the dirt. Guess what? A
typical paper filter, like the stock on, stops 99% of the dirt. So
the K&Ns allow twice as much dirt to get through. Can you say
for certain that will not adversely affect engine life? Common
sense says it certainly won’t do anything beneficial, and
essentially no data exists to say it won’t hurt. Are you willing
to take the chance?–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Fri 17 Jun 2005:

Uhh…

You obviously haven’t looked at K&Ns then.

K&N filters are a cotton weave filter. This is why you can
wash them and they don’t fall apart, as opposed to a paper
filter, which would be damaged by washing.

As for use of K&Ns, they do allow more airflow into the
intake. I currently run a K&N cone air filter on my intake
on my 2002 Saturn SC2; this provides more surface area than
the original 4x9’’ paper filter than the factory stock air
filter and airbox.

Now, I won’t doubt that the stock filter canister on the
E-Types work well; however, when properly oiled and cleaned
on a regular basis (essentially every time you change your
oil, you wash and re-oil the filters), the filters are
effective.

My father has used a K&N filter on his '94 Chevy C1500
pickup with no damage; he’s got one installed on his
Harley-Davidson F150, and we have been running K&Ns on our 2
Saturns with no ill effects for the past 7 years.–
The original message included these comments:

K&Ns are dry paper filters, not oiled, so there is no mess.


Doug Abel, 1967 Series I 4.2L 2+2 E-Type
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In reply to a message from Doug Abel sent Sat 18 Jun 2005:

Doug,
Yeah, K&Ns are cloth, not paper. Changes nothing I’ve said.
So you’ve run a controlled test for those seven years on
identical vehicles, one modified and one not, and torn down the
engines so you can know there isn’t more damage internal to the
one with the K&Ns? I think not. What you’re giving is anecdotal
evidence, which can be used to ‘‘prove’’ almost anything, based on a
sample of one. From a scientific standpoint, it means nothing.
You have no idea how those filters are performing compared to the
stock filters, and you also have no idea whether or not there is
increased wear in the engine due to the less effective (by K&Ns own
data, BTW) filtration. And, as I said, more airflow does not
guarantee more performance. It can often mean just the opposite.–
The original message included these comments:

Now, I won’t doubt that the stock filter canister on the
E-Types work well; however, when properly oiled and cleaned
on a regular basis (essentially every time you change your
oil, you wash and re-oil the filters), the filters are
effective.
My father has used a K&N filter on his '94 Chevy C1500
pickup with no damage; he’s got one installed on his
Harley-Davidson F150, and we have been running K&Ns on our 2
Saturns with no ill effects for the past 7 years.

Doug Abel, 1967 Series I 4.2L 2+2 E-Type


Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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In a message dated 6/17/05 10:30:31 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
owner-e-type@jag-lovers.org writes:

Subject: Re: [E-Type] Does anyone have a part # for K & N filters

In a message dated 6/17/2005 9:02:27 AM Pacific Standard Time,
rcliggitt@cox.net writes:
believe you’ll find that K&N filter systems were VERY
carefully designed – not so much to remove dirt from air
but to money from our pockets! It is truly a snake-oil
marketing gimmick.

Imagine if STP could convince people that STP was the best air filter oil
for K&N filters.

Best, Mike Moore

Isn’t it?

Richard Kuschel
“I canna’ change the Law of Physics” -----------Scotty

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Mike,
I’m not picking on you but I’m afraid your rant is only opinion and
subjective. Your “seat of the pants” comparison reminds me of the kids back
in the '60’s who use to flip their air cleaner lids over to “admit more
air”. When they did a back to back test on a timed run,(quarter mile drag
strip) they discovered they were actually slower! But how can that be?
“The car SOUNDS faster.”
If you did any dyno testing at all on those M.G.'s you would know that a
filter change wasn’t the only modification necessary to gain ten horsepower.
You can use the stock air cleaner system and gain ten horsepower or more by
just doing your tune-ups and jetting on a dyno. See the works done by David
Vizard.(or Philip H Smith and John C Morrison) No opinion, just facts.
They includes dyno information on EVERY change they make, and they will say
when their theories were wrong.
As far as “why don’t Webers have big clunky air boxes instead of short
ram pipes?” For street applications THEY DO ! It’s a big box affair that
encloses the ram pipes. Another thing, a sharp edged ram pipe will mess up
air flow into a carburetor, for ideal air flow it needs to be a rolled edge,
and must be tuned for length. Jaguar knows this and did it with the design
of their air trumpets.
Use K&N’s if you want (I do on my Harley and my Explorer) but be honest
with yourself about why your using them. I like them because they’re
washable, which I do regularly. I don’t have to worry about the parts store
being sold out of my filter number, and disposal is a non issue.
Phil
1E34251 and 890540

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Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php----- Original Message -----
From: “Mike King” mike@ear.net
To: e-type@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: [E-Type] Does anyone have a part # for K & N filters

I have always been skeptical of the claims of K&N and other performance
filter manufacturers. I haven’t found much inthe way of independent studies
but the following may be of interest:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm

and

http://home.usadatanet.net/~jbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm

Put me down with those who believe K&N’s are well advertised snake oil.

John Walker

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In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Sat 18 Jun 2005:

And you haven’t proved one way or the other that the stock
setup is better than the K&N setup.

Here’s what I’ll do:

My father has purchased a set of K&N air filters from
Classic Jaguar.

I currently have a GTech Pro meter that provides accurate
HP/Torque readings, actual to the wheels.

I’ll run 3 runs with the stock filter on, and then 3 runs
with the K&N filters. If there is an improvement, the
records will show improvement. If it doesn’t, the test will
show that.

Hopefully, this will solve it.–
Doug Abel, 1967 Series I 4.2L 2+2 E-Type
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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In reply to a message from J Walker sent Sun 19 Jun 2005:

John,
I just loved those! The K&N came out near the bottom in nearly
every test, the stock paper filters near the top! I would not have
expected the K&Ns to come out well, but they did far worse than I
would have expected.
My two favorite snippets, both from the conclusions of the
second article:

‘‘After only 24 minutes the K&N had accumulated 221gms of dirt but
passed 7.0gms. Compared to the AC, the K&N �plugged up� nearly 3
times faster, passed 18 times more dirt and captured 37% less dirt.’’

�Now that I am not doing the tests and my objectivity is not
necessary, let me explain my motivation. The reason I started this
crusade was that I was seeing people spend a lot of money on
aftermarket filters based on the word of a salesperson or based on
the misleading, incomplete or outright deceiving information
printed on boxes and in sales literature. Gentlemen and Ladies,
Marketing and the lure of profit is VERY POWERFUL! It is amazing
how many people believe that better airflow = more power! Unless
you have modifications out the wazoo, a more porous filter will
just dirty your oil! Some will say ‘’ I have used aftermarket brand
X for XXX # years with no problems. The PROBLEM is you spent a
chunk of ching on a product that not only DID NOT increase your
horsepower, but also let in a lot of dirt while doing it! Now how
much is a lot? ANY MORE THAN NECESSARY is TOO MUCH! ‘’–
The original message included these comments:

I have always been skeptical of the claims of K&N and other performance
filter manufacturers. I haven’t found much inthe way of independent studies
but the following may be of interest:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm
and
http://home.usadatanet.net/~jbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm
Put me down with those who believe K&N’s are well advertised snake oil.
John Walker


Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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Ray wrote: “I just loved those! The K&N came out near the bottom in nearly
every test, the stock paper filters near the top! I would not have expected
the K&Ns to come out well, but they did far worse than I would have
expected.”+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

And I am guessing your wife tells you you are too cynical. Mine does. :slight_smile:

I’ve never understood why someonw will readily believe manufacturer’s
advertising and discount resonable comparitive tests. One argument I love
is “Race cars use them”. Yes they just might, but they are being paid to
use them and stick those decals on their cars. And race car owners
generally are not concerned with the engine lasting 100,000 miles. Most pro
teams would probably gladly trade an engine rebuild for a victory.

I think someone on this list once stated that the max airflow requirement
for a 4.2 engine is something like 600 CFM. Anybody know the flow rate for
a stock air filter set up. Those Series I and II air filter elements have a
huge amount of surface area. I suspect it is more than adequate.

John Walker

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John,
You’re correct, the stock filters are oversize. I think the
manufactures do it to provide a safety margin for filter changes. To find
the minimum filter surface area goes, the formula is:

A= CID x RPM divided by 25,500
A=256 x 5500 divided by 25,500
A = about 55 sq in of effective filtering area

To find the total height of filter needed, use the following:

Area divided by (D x 3.14) + .75 = H
D = the largest diameter (measured) you have room for, and H will equal the
height.

As far as CFM air requirements are concerned, an easy formula we use is:

CID x RPM divided by 3456
CID = 256, Max rpm = 5500 divided by 3456
Which comes out to about 407 cfm’s
(this total is split between number of carbs)

If your Jag is wearing a small block Chevy:
350 x 6200 divided by 3456 = 628 cfm’s, so a Holly “650” is what you need.
These are AIR requirements for a street engine, you must still jet for fuel.

 Hope this helps,
        Phil

1E34251 & 890540----- Original Message -----
From: “J Walker” jrwalker@ev1.net
To: e-type@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: [E-Type] Does anyone have a part # for K & N filters

I think someone on this list once stated that the max airflow requirement
for a 4.2 engine is something like 600 CFM. Anybody know the flow rate
for
a stock air filter set up. Those Series I and II air filter elements have
a
huge amount of surface area. I suspect it is more than adequate.

John Walker

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Doug,

I’m just catching up on the emails but WHAT do you intend to prove with your
test??? In my eyes, all you will prove is that you have the ability to
make three, albeit non-identical test runs, with two different filter set
ups. That is all. You are not PROVING anything UNLESS you know that the
car is optimally tuned on each set up which, as I recall, you are having
difficulties with currently. Are you going to spring for the dyno time to
verify that everything is correct prior to the “Test”

This is one of the fallacies that exist with “Performance” parts. Too
often, people take worn out components, replace them with new “Performance”
parts, and swear that the parts make a huge difference when in fact
replacement “Standard” parts would have had similar results.

Making more HP involves a lot more than bolting on a part or two. Change
the air flow, opps - now you might need to adjust the carbs. Opps, now the
standard needle profile might be incorrect. Opps, now the timing may be
adjusted. Its a PROCESS and to optimize the system the effects of the
change must be carried through the entire system.

Your “Test” does not meet any engineering or scientific standard for a
controlled test. It therefore can not be replicated, hence is of limited
value. In other words, its just the sort of thing that I argued with the
marketing department about :>)) What it will prove, for you, is which one
your car appears to run best on, given its current state of tune.

Do what you will. Have fun doing it. But don’t anticipate proving anything
because this sort of test can not do that!

Allan Pebworth
64 ots (in boxes and bits)-----Original Message-----
From: owner-e-type@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-e-type@jag-lovers.org]On
Behalf Of Doug Abel
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 10:14 PM
To: e-type@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [E-Type] Does anyone have a part # for K & N filters

In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Sat 18 Jun 2005:

And you haven’t proved one way or the other that the stock
setup is better than the K&N setup.

Here’s what I’ll do:

My father has purchased a set of K&N air filters from
Classic Jaguar.

I currently have a GTech Pro meter that provides accurate
HP/Torque readings, actual to the wheels.

I’ll run 3 runs with the stock filter on, and then 3 runs
with the K&N filters. If there is an improvement, the
records will show improvement. If it doesn’t, the test will
show that.

Hopefully, this will solve it.

Doug Abel, 1967 Series I 4.2L 2+2 E-Type
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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Cloyd said:- “See the works done by David Vizard”

And there was I, thinking that I was the only person on the list who
knew of David Vizard.

However, I now seem to be at that unfortunate time of life when what
happened yesterday can be a complete blur and yet things from decades
strangely appear in perfect clarity.

Vizard was an (if not “the”) Guru of independent mini tuning and anyone
preparing a car from fast road use or competition listened to what he
said. He also undertook projects that seemed “odd”, as he was never one
to follow the crowd when it came to the selection of vehicles or the
projects he undertook.

As a prolific writher for CCC (an enthusiasts magazine that may or may
not still exist in England) his articles were always full of the dyno
numbers for his projects and I do recall work he did on a very unusual
project for him - an inveterate road racer - it was a Hillman Avenger
that he built for drag racing, amongst other things. Thus, he had plenty
of opportunity to compare dyno pulls with actual strip times and this
turned out to be one fast car by the time he’d finished with it. He also
used the engine for other investigations, including testing air filters
(and “no filter” - with a reduction in performance). His dyno pulls
showed that the K&N filter - available even that many decades ago - was
by far superior to anything else he tried and it was what he used on
that car for road and competition. There was no work done on potential
engine damage/wear for comparative purposes, but the K&N did come out on
top by a surprising percentage.

I always thought it a pity that he was never attracted to the XK engine,
I’m sure he could have found power and reliability at minimum cost, as
he did for the other engines that caught his attention.

John.

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John,

David Visard…It’s been a while since I last heard that name. I read
his book on the A-series engine cover to cover many times when running a
1098cc Sprite in autocross. As I recall the increases came mostly on
heavily breathed on engines (mini engines for example that were 45 HP stock
and were running in race trim at 115+ HP and costing more then a full
rebuild on the Jag 6 (at the time a Huffacker engine was $12-15,000 - I was
building $2000 engines :>((. Without doubt these engines need more air than
a stock engine. Therefore it is entirely reasonable that K&N can have a
benefit in these conditions. I just question the value on a stock, or
reasonably so, set up.

Wiggy,

Sorry, but I did run a K&N filter set with integral velocity stacks
(purchased through APT racing - which was Visards company) on that car but
as I say, heavily modified and long term life didn’t really matter (as an
autocross car, running perhaps 15 events a year, engine time was perhaps 3-4
hours a year max).

Allan Pebworth
64 OTS (in boxes and bits)-----Original Message-----
From: owner-e-type@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-e-type@jag-lovers.org]On
Behalf Of Duhig, John F
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 6:28 PM
To: e-type@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [E-Type] Does anyone have a part # for K & N filters

Cloyd said:- “See the works done by David Vizard”

And there was I, thinking that I was the only person on the list who
knew of David Vizard.

However, I now seem to be at that unfortunate time of life when what
happened yesterday can be a complete blur and yet things from decades
strangely appear in perfect clarity.

Vizard was an (if not “the”) Guru of independent mini tuning and anyone
preparing a car from fast road use or competition listened to what he
said. He also undertook projects that seemed “odd”, as he was never one
to follow the crowd when it came to the selection of vehicles or the
projects he undertook.

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