This might be useful to those who have Rays EDIS kit fitted.
I was concerned that the disc/rotor bolted to the crank had too much
play between the fixing bolts and the slots. The fitting instructions
recognize this play of course and require one to rotate the crank to
ensure appropriate clearance all the way aorund, while trying to
“center” the rotor. This is a little more difficult with the crank
pulley now recessed into the EDIS rotor.
Also, I didn’t want to get in the position of having to adjust the
timing when everything was in place, and limited room, and having to
mess around to make sure that the play hadn’t gone to one side.
So, bottom line…I’ve had a set of shim/spacers made up that
fits onto the fixing bolts with a couple of thou play and also fits
into the slot with similar play. They have been mad to be a few thou
shallower than the depth of the slot. They act like little rollers.
What the aforementioned has given me is the ability to loosen the
bolts when timing adjustment is required and easily rotate the rotor
the required amount, without having to worry about pickup clearance.
In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Mon 22 Aug 2016:
Les,
Turning the crank can be easily done using a large wrench
resting against two opposite bolts. In fact, doing it this
way is much easier than using a large socket on the BFB in the
center of the crank.
The slots are intentionally ‘‘loose’’ to accommodate the wide
tolerance in the locations of the bolts holes in the pulleys.
The trigger wheel does not need to be really tightly centered,
just so long as any runout is not enough to cause contact with
the crank sensor.–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
Understood ray but I didn’t want to be laying on the ground trying to peer into that small space, worried that the sensor might be too close or too far away. Now I don’t have to do that.Sent from my iPhone
In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Mon 22 Aug 2016:
Les,
Turning the crank can be easily done using a large wrench
resting against two opposite bolts. In fact, doing it this
way is much easier than using a large socket on the BFB in the
center of the crank.
The slots are intentionally ‘‘loose’’ to accommodate the wide
tolerance in the locations of the bolts holes in the pulleys.
The trigger wheel does not need to be really tightly centered,
just so long as any runout is not enough to cause contact with
the crank sensor.
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Mon 22 Aug 2016:
It just so happens that the 1/2’’ drive socket I have that
fits the BFB in the center of the crank has an OD within a
couple of thousandths of the ID of the EDIS toothed
sprocket. Insert socket, loosen toothed sprocket bolts,
loosen, then retighten. Bob’s your father’s brother!–
The original message included these comments:
Understood ray but I didn’t want to be laying on the ground trying to peer into that small space, worried that the sensor might be too close or too far away. Now I don’t have to do that.
The slots are intentionally ‘‘loose’’ to accommodate the wide
tolerance in the locations of the bolts holes in the pulleys.
The trigger wheel does not need to be really tightly centered,
just so long as any runout is not enough to cause contact with
the crank sensor.
–
Doug- 1968 Series 1.5 E-Type OTS
Denver, CO, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
And what stops the socket and rotor plate from moving around? On my
car, the BFB on the crank is now inaccessable with the EDIS plate and
spacer fitted, so nothing to lock the center position of the socket.On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 2:34 PM, skiracer dbanning@earthlink.net wrote:
In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Mon 22 Aug 2016:
It just so happens that the 1/2’’ drive socket I have that
fits the BFB in the center of the crank has an OD within a
couple of thousandths of the ID of the EDIS toothed
sprocket. Insert socket, loosen toothed sprocket bolts,
loosen, then retighten. Bob’s your father’s brother!
The original message included these comments:
Understood ray but I didn’t want to be laying on the ground trying to peer into that small space, worried that the sensor might be too close or too far away. Now I don’t have to do that.
The slots are intentionally ‘‘loose’’ to accommodate the wide
tolerance in the locations of the bolts holes in the pulleys.
The trigger wheel does not need to be really tightly centered,
just so long as any runout is not enough to cause contact with
the crank sensor.
–
Doug- 1968 Series 1.5 E-Type OTS
Denver, CO, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Mon 22 Aug 2016:
The socket engages the BFB and holds it centered on the
crank. You need to be able to get the socket onto the BFB.–
The original message included these comments:
And what stops the socket and rotor plate from moving around? On my
car, the BFB on the crank is now inaccessable with the EDIS plate and
spacer fitted, so nothing to lock the center position of the socket.
–
Doug- 1968 Series 1.5 E-Type OTS
Denver, CO, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
That’s my point mate, the BFB is now covered by the EDIS
plate…as in the adapter plate fits over the BFB to lock it in
place because the std locking washers have been removed to facilitate
the mounting of the rotor! That’s what makes rotating the crank more
dificult, as in you have to use a lever across a couple of the rotor
mounting plate bolts…sounds like your car is different.On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 3:47 PM, skiracer dbanning@earthlink.net wrote:
In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Mon 22 Aug 2016:
The socket engages the BFB and holds it centered on the
crank. You need to be able to get the socket onto the BFB.
The original message included these comments:
And what stops the socket and rotor plate from moving around? On my
car, the BFB on the crank is now inaccessable with the EDIS plate and
spacer fitted, so nothing to lock the center position of the socket.
–
Doug- 1968 Series 1.5 E-Type OTS
Denver, CO, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Mon 22 Aug 2016:
Les,
Depends on which kit you have. There were three different
trigger wheels, and several different means of locking the
BFB.–
The original message included these comments:
That’s my point mate, the BFB is now covered by the EDIS
plate…as in the adapter plate fits over the BFB to lock it in
place because the std locking washers have been removed to facilitate
the mounting of the rotor! That’s what makes rotating the crank more
dificult, as in you have to use a lever across a couple of the rotor
mounting plate bolts…sounds like your car is different.
–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
Well, I guess I have the version that doesn’t allow continued access
to the BFB. It’s NP really, now that I have the rotor “auto
centralized” I can move the thing around/adjust it, without concern or
hassle.On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 5:33 PM, Ray Livingston jagboy@pacbell.net wrote:
In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Mon 22 Aug 2016:
Les,
Depends on which kit you have. There were three different
trigger wheels, and several different means of locking the
BFB.
The original message included these comments:
That’s my point mate, the BFB is now covered by the EDIS
plate…as in the adapter plate fits over the BFB to lock it in
place because the std locking washers have been removed to facilitate
the mounting of the rotor! That’s what makes rotating the crank more
dificult, as in you have to use a lever across a couple of the rotor
mounting plate bolts…sounds like your car is different.
–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Mon 22 Aug 2016:
Les,
Wondering why it would be necessary to move the trigger
wheel ever again (barring disassembly). If you need to
adjust timing that can all be done via computer, no?
Jerry–
Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In the version I have, if one ever needs to remove the crankshaft
pulley the rotor and underlying BFB locking spacer all need to come
off. Then of course one would need to re-time.
But you raise a good point Jerry. With the old distributor setup the
baseline was easily set using a strobe and moving the
distributor…with the new setup one still requires a baseline
(per the instructions of finding TDC and locking the rotor in place
etc) and the simplest way to do that is to stop the engine and adjust
the rotor.
Also, it seems to me that any readng one might get on the computer
regarding firing position is only as good as the baseline position
originally set up. If the rotor is off by say five degrees the
computer wouldn’t know because rotor position is its reference point,
so one still has to go back and set the rotor to a correct mechanical
TDC…seems to me that any way you look at it, adjustment
of the rotor is required from time to time.
Maybe I have the aforementioned wrong and if so, i’m sure Ray will
correct me, I hope.On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 7:07 PM, mouton jerry@moutons.org wrote:
In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Mon 22 Aug 2016:
Les,
Wondering why it would be necessary to move the trigger
wheel ever again (barring disassembly). If you need to
adjust timing that can all be done via computer, no?
Jerry
Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Tue 23 Aug 2016:
Les,
If the trigger wheel is timed incorrectly, you can ‘‘tune
out’’ the offset in the software, providing it is not
massively off. In fact, there is a dedicated setting in the
software for exactly this purpose. The one and only down-
side of this would be that the 10BTDC ‘‘limp home mode’’
timing, which is entirely dependent on the trigger wheel
timing, would be incorrect. An extra 5 degrees of advance
would almost certainly be harmless, but an extra 5 degrees
of retard would likely lead to hot running if driven any
distance, or under hot ambient conditions.
On all the systems I’ve installed (quite a few…) the
trigger wheel proved to be very nicely self-centering, as
long as the bolts were tightened equally in steps.
Similarly, a visual setting of trigger wheel timing proved
surprisingly accurate. So, I never saw trigger wheel
centering as any kind of issue that needed improving. In
every case, I was able to bolt up the trigger wheel in a few
seconds, ending up with correct timing (within well under
than one degree), and adequate clearance, on the very first
try.–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
I paid very specific attention to the instructions in the kit about rotating the engine to ensure a correct gap and no fouling of the sensor, all because the bolts were not a dead fit in the slots, hence my extra effort with the shins.
So anyway, I don’t consider my work wasted and see it as an improvement…YMMV.Sent from my iPhone
In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Tue 23 Aug 2016:
Les,
If the trigger wheel is timed incorrectly, you can ‘‘tune
out’’ the offset in the software, providing it is not
massively off. In fact, there is a dedicated setting in the
software for exactly this purpose. The one and only down-
side of this would be that the 10BTDC ‘‘limp home mode’’
timing, which is entirely dependent on the trigger wheel
timing, would be incorrect. An extra 5 degrees of advance
would almost certainly be harmless, but an extra 5 degrees
of retard would likely lead to hot running if driven any
distance, or under hot ambient conditions.
On all the systems I’ve installed (quite a few…) the
trigger wheel proved to be very nicely self-centering, as
long as the bolts were tightened equally in steps.
Similarly, a visual setting of trigger wheel timing proved
surprisingly accurate. So, I never saw trigger wheel
centering as any kind of issue that needed improving. In
every case, I was able to bolt up the trigger wheel in a few
seconds, ending up with correct timing (within well under
than one degree), and adequate clearance, on the very first
try.
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Tue 23 Aug 2016:
Les,
You don’t depend on the computer to tell you where the
trigger wheel is WRT TDC, you see where the trigger wheel
is with a timing light and then adjust that to ‘‘right on’’
by setting the computer to add whatever degrees you need to
the timing cycle – there is a specific parameter for
that. As Ray says after physically setting it carefully it
has always been right on when measured, no electronic
adjustment necessary, but in case – you don’t have to go
back and move the trigger wheel.
Jerry
Jerry–
Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Tue 23 Aug 2016:
‘‘seems to me that any way you look at it, adjustment of the
rotor is required from time to time.’’ - That is absolutely not
true. TDC is TDC. The ONLY time it will ever require re-
adjustment is if you loosen the trigger wheel and move it.
Once it is set properly, it will never need to be touched
again, unless you disturb it.–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
hehe, this is turning out to be something like going to a dealership
and saying that “this part doesn’t fit quite right and btw, you guys
said it needed extra attention due to that in your instructions
etc…” and them saying “nah, there’s no problem at all and you
don’t need to do anything at all etc etc”…all I’m saying is
that there’s play in the bolt to rotor, (and the instructions said to
be aware of that so take precautions on making sure you don’t have
problems), that can well be done without so I made some shims to take
that slop out…this means that in my world all things are now in
alignment and all is well.
If anyone feels that my work is unnecessary, fine, do it your own way,
but for me, this eliminates a possible hassle…that’s it
folks…love your work Ray and have implicit confidence
in it working just fine, now, which is why I dumped my MSD and went
with your version.On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 11:19 AM, Ray Livingston jagboy@pacbell.net wrote:
In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Tue 23 Aug 2016:
‘‘seems to me that any way you look at it, adjustment of the
rotor is required from time to time.’’ - That is absolutely not
true. TDC is TDC. The ONLY time it will ever require re-
adjustment is if you loosen the trigger wheel and move it.
Once it is set properly, it will never need to be touched
again, unless you disturb it.
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
I will use a timing light and the marks on the pulley and the pointer
to determine if the rotor is correctly set for my baseline…10D
BTDC…if it isn’t I will loosen the rotor and move it to correct
any error in my original setup.
Ray, I assume you set the system for 10D BTDC as the initial baseline?On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 11:02 AM, mouton jerry@moutons.org wrote:
In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Tue 23 Aug 2016:
Les,
You don’t depend on the computer to tell you where the
trigger wheel is WRT TDC, you see where the trigger wheel
is with a timing light and then adjust that to ‘‘right on’’
by setting the computer to add whatever degrees you need to
the timing cycle – there is a specific parameter for
that. As Ray says after physically setting it carefully it
has always been right on when measured, no electronic
adjustment necessary, but in case – you don’t have to go
back and move the trigger wheel.
Jerry
Jerry
Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Tue 23 Aug 2016:
Les, I think the issue is that there is no guarantee that the
bolts provide a precise concentric mounting. In my case I found
that I needed all of the clearance and in fact a slight
additional grinding in one slot to allow exact centering of the
trigger wheel as determined by a magnet dial indicator. If I
understand your shim position, it would eliminate this
adjustment. The bolts extend somewhat through the spacer and
any thread misalignment or bending of the bolt can create an
issue. I’m not sure how much problem would be created by a
slightly misaligned trigger wheel as long as it didn’t touch
the pickup, but my thought would be the less the better.–
The original message included these comments:
don’t need to do anything at all etc etc’'…all I’m saying is
that there’s play in the bolt to rotor, (and the instructions said to
be aware of that so take precautions on making sure you don’t have
problems), that can well be done without so I made some shims to take
that slop out…this means that in my world all things are now in
–
Gary Brinker - 1E11523 66 OTS Mid Restoration - Maumee, Ohio
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
I simply took a few minutes to carefully measure/center the wheel so that it.w is “off” by only a couple thousandths. not difficult with spark plugs removed.
LLoyd----- Original Message -----
.
… So, I never saw trigger wheel
centering as any kind of issue that needed improving. …
