[E-Type] Engine Rebuild - Rear Oil Seal Question

'evening all,

Just starting to rebuild my 4.2. Everything is properly
machined by an experienced quality shop.

Crankshaft turns with mild stiffness when the mains are
tightened down but if the rear rope seal housing is
tightened up it becomes very stiff, almost impossible, to turn.

I guess there is a lot of interference between the rope seal
and the crank. Is there a problem or will this ease up as
the rope seal takes shape?

The rope seal from a Payen gasket set was difficult to insert.

Also, there were three rubber O-Rings in the gasket set - I
presumed that two of these are for the supply and pressure
pipes for the oil pump? Is that right? What is the third for?

Yes,this is my XK engine total rebuild!

Thank you all.

Simon–
Simon '68 E-Type OTS
Carlisle, MA, United States
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In reply to a message from SGLP sent Fri 15 May 2015:

FIRC the crank should turn with 25 lbs of torque…which is not
much…you really should get the correct rear seal setting tool as
its the best option for setting the seal…–
Pjwilletts 62 ots, 60 Bugeye sprite
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In reply to a message from SGLP sent Fri 15 May 2015:

Dear Simon,

The rope seal is not supposed to touch the crank. It works by
having a tiny gap (~2thou) between it and the crank and running
over a spiral groove cut into the crank. Any oil attempting to make
its way out is pulled back into the engine by the Archimedes screw
which is the oil groove and mild crankcase vacuum ensures that
there is air pressure pushing from outside to inside whilst running.

To achieve this, this seal has to be sized using a special tool
which is essentially the same size as the crank plus a tiny bit.

Failure to do this means that the seal will be sized ‘‘on the
crank’’. This has the consequence that it will be gripped by the
crank and and rather than pushed into the groove, can be pulled
around, rotated and concertina’d around the crank. This means that
there may be a gap between the two halves of the seal and oil can
escape if it has got past the metal to metal contact at the back of
the engine. A leak free engine is thus not guaranteed.

This is also the reason why the ‘‘sneaky Pete’’ method sort of works,
but sort of doesn’t work 100% of the time:- pulling a seal around
the crank necessarily deforms it and damages its ends.

It is also important to make siure that none threads of the rope
get caught between the housings as they come together. It is
surprisingly difficult and a skilled job to correctly size the rear
seal.

Aside from properly sizing the seal, you could attempt to get a gap
by temporarily using a couple of layers of metal tape around the
crank and tightening that to seat the seal further into its groove.

kind regards
Marek–
The original message included these comments:

I guess there is a lot of interference between the rope seal
and the crank. Is there a problem or will this ease up as
the rope seal takes shape?


v12 E-type running MS3/3X sequential lpg and petrol
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In reply to a message from MarekH sent Sat 16 May 2015:

The ‘‘factory’’ tool sourced from the Jaguar Club of North
America is SMALLER than the crank scroll by quite a few
thousandth’s of an inch. Sizing with this tool and using the
‘‘black’’ rope seal (‘graphite’ and sized so NO trimming is
required - sourced from one of our usual suppliers who is a
Jaguar dealer) will result in considerable drag. After all,
it is like an external brake. If you try to put a ‘‘white’’
seal in, the crank will barely turn if it is a ‘pattern’
seal which requires trimming as the one first supplied to me
wasn’t a very good fit in the groove in addition to being
too long.
Get a hold of a factory tool and measure it with a
micrometer, then measure the crank scroll. You’ll find that
there is a problem with either some of the tools or some of
the urban myths, some of the crank scrolls or all of the
above. I don’t sweat it as the crank turns, I used the
tool, it spun the same after each bearing was installed and
it ain’t gonna ‘‘burn the bearing’’ like some say.
Maybe I got the only defective Jag tool in the world,
maybe Jag changed the spec, maybe a lot of things, but no
way was the tool I got bigger than the crank scroll.–
The original message included these comments:

The rope seal is not supposed to touch the crank. It works by
having a tiny gap (~2thou) between it and the crank and running
over a spiral groove cut into the crank. Any oil attempting to make
its way out is pulled back into the engine by the Archimedes screw
which is the oil groove and mild crankcase vacuum ensures that
To achieve this, this seal has to be sized using a special tool
which is essentially the same size as the crank plus a tiny bit.
Failure to do this means that the seal will be sized ‘‘on the
crank’’. This has the consequence that it will be gripped by the
crank and and rather than pushed into the groove, can be pulled


Larry Velk: '64 FHC,928, FZR1000, XR4ti, 325Ci
New Berlin, WI, United States
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In reply to a message from SGLP sent Fri 15 May 2015:

The third O ring might be for the insert on the rear of the
inlet cam cover, but it would be larger than the other two
if so…–
The original message included these comments:

Also, there were three rubber O-Rings in the gasket set - I
presumed that two of these are for the supply and pressure
pipes for the oil pump? Is that right? What is the third for?
Yes,this is my XK engine total rebuild!
Thank you all.
Simon


Keith.P. Series2 Roadster
exmouth, United Kingdom
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In reply to a message from sozfingers sent Sat 16 May 2015:

I used a section of broom handle and a hammer and tapped
all along the seal so that it was really seated. Then I
TRIMMED about 0.2mm off the end as it was clearly too
long.
Then I tightened the main bearings caps progressively and
the crank would reasonably easily turn ( overcoming
stiction from STP/engine oil assembly cocktail). Then I
tightened down the seal housing. Crankshaft still turns
with the same torque applied.
In conclusion, I think the seals that come with the Payen
kit may need trimming to fit.
We’ll see.

Thanks

Simon–
Simon '68 E-Type OTS
Carlisle, MA, United States
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In reply to a message from SGLP sent Sat 16 May 2015:

If I am to believe you (that you accurately trimmed a ROPE
seal by 8 thou!), by what reasoning is less than a tenth
of one percent of the bearing circumference/seal length at
ID ‘‘clearly too long’’? It might be clear to someone with a
microscope, but less than one tenth of one percent is
nothing when it comes to rope seals and your engine
wouldn’t know the difference.

Pete–
The original message included these comments:

TRIMMED about 0.2mm off the end as it was clearly too
long.


1E75339 66 D, 1R27190 70 FHC, 79 S2 XJ12L
Gaithersburg, Maryland, United States
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In reply to a message from PeterCrespin sent Sat 16 May 2015:

I really don’t think a rope seal can be trimmed super good.
I resolved to get another seal when the ‘‘white’’ one I
sourced was too long - I did try to trim it. If you had a
mandrel, MAYBE you could do an acceptable job.
The ‘‘black’’ seal I got was just fine - it fit with only
the very smallest part proud. When the housing tightened up
it squeezed flush and the Jaguar tool went in, but did
require considerable effort. You really do need to push it
into the housing ‘with a will’ and it should be flush. I’m
quite sure the black seal had a Jaguar part number and I’m
sure the white seal did not.
I know lots of guys trim seals and they work, but I
rather think they are a bit proud of the surface and work
because they get packed in. I sure couldn’t trim it perfect
even using a huge socket as back up - that’s why I got a new
seal.
The Jag tool will run out a tiny bit as it isn’t an
interference fit in the rear bearing housing which
effectively sizes a bit over the diameter, but not very much.–
The original message included these comments:

If I am to believe you (that you accurately trimmed a ROPE
seal by 8 thou!), by what reasoning is less than a tenth


Larry Velk: '64 FHC,928, FZR1000, XR4ti, 325Ci
New Berlin, WI, United States
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In reply to a message from larebob sent Sat 16 May 2015:

Fair comment - I don’t see how you could trim a rope seal
to the nearest thou or two, or that you’d ever need to.
However, you made some remarks earlier that probably need
clarification:

The loan tools are nothing but original Churchill,
Zelenda,OTC,SPX etc. tools. These are sent around the
country fully insured and the insurance carrier is very
clear about them HAVING to be totally genuine or no dice.

I even think they had to throw away about 500 lbs of tools
that were not up to spec or not FACTORY. [Wish I knew
where they were buried! :-)] The crank seal sizing tools
are very carefully polished to the final size - not merely
turned and the program has been going successfully for
nearly three years.

Of course it doesn’t cover supply of correct seals but in
all cases I soak them a long time in oil anyway. I
probably have a pre-soaked graphite seal in a ziplok bag
somewhere.

Pete–
The original message included these comments:

I really don’t think a rope seal can be trimmed super good.
I resolved to get another seal when the ‘‘white’’ one I
it squeezed flush and the Jaguar tool went in, but did
require considerable effort. You really do need to push it
into the housing ‘with a will’ and it should be flush. I’m
quite sure the black seal had a Jaguar part number and I’m
sure the white seal did not.
The Jag tool will run out a tiny bit as it isn’t an
interference fit in the rear bearing housing which
effectively sizes a bit over the diameter, but not very much.


1E75339 66 D, 1R27190 70 FHC, 79 S2 XJ12L
Gaithersburg, Maryland, United States
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In reply to a message from PeterCrespin sent Sat 16 May 2015:

Having watched an experienced XK engine mechanic install and
size the rear seal in my engine I will hazard a comment. He
trimmed only the minor spillover that might interfere with the
exact mating of the two halves of the cover assembly. That is
to say laterally and very little. Errant threads. The four
ends of the two halves were slightly proud on assembly as they
should be for a good seal on torquing the cover assembly down.
The seals as supplied are not intended to be trimmed
lengthwise.–
Nick Saltarelli '68 Cdn mkt E-type S1� OTS, '54 XK120SE OTS
Niagara, Ontario, Canada
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In reply to a message from N�ck sent Sat 16 May 2015:

Nick, that is what I did.

Peter, when I said I removed 0.2mm I intended to give a
sense of the quantity removed, not an exact dimension.

I believe that if there is too much rope sticking out of
each half of the housing then when they are clamped
together the excess rope seal material presses against the
crankshaft and brakes it.–
The original message included these comments:

trimmed only the minor spillover that might interfere with the
exact mating of the two halves of the cover assembly. That is
to say laterally and very little. Errant threads. The four


Simon '68 E-Type OTS
Carlisle, MA, United States
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In reply to a message from SGLP sent Sat 16 May 2015:

I used an �OEM� white seal from SNG.

I carefully narrowed it with a hammer, which I had heard
mention elsewhere.

I found it fit in the grove quite easily and was not over
long. I decided to use a little gasket sealant in the grove
as I had heard of the possibility of the seal turning; oiled
it; well used Graphogen and then used a sizing tool.
It was quite straight forward, but the engine is not running
yet, so I have yet to see if it leaks.

Paul–
The original message included these comments:

In reply to a message from N�ck sent Sat 16 May 2015:
Nick, that is what I did.
Peter, when I said I removed 0.2mm I intended to give a
sense of the quantity removed, not an exact dimension.
I believe that if there is too much rope sticking out of
each half of the housing then when they are clamped
together the excess rope seal material presses against the
crankshaft and brakes it.

trimmed only the minor spillover that might interfere with the
exact mating of the two halves of the cover assembly. That is
to say laterally and very little. Errant threads. The four


Paul Scott, 65 E-Type FHC, 1E32131, Jaguar 340
Oxford, United Kingdom
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In reply to a message from SGLP sent Sat 16 May 2015:

I agree with Nick too, although stray threads can be
tucked into the recess too and there aren’t usually any
with the graphite seal.

Your second para sounds different to your first post. You
said the seal was clearly too long so you trimmed it by
‘X’.

It isn’t too long, clearly or otherwise, and is supposed
to stand fractionally proud. Do not trim it.

A stray thread can be tucked in or razor-bladed off but
that doesn’t make the seal too long and it won’t drag the
crank excessively if installed correctly at the supplied
length of a Payen part.

The whole point of the installation procedure is to ensure
there is no excessive seal sticking out at the ends. If
there is, then the installation is wrong. Excessive
protrusion is a sign to redo, not trim the seal.

Pete–
The original message included these comments:

I believe that if there is too much rope sticking out of
each half of the housing then when they are clamped
together the excess rope seal material presses against the
crankshaft and brakes it.


1E75339 66 D, 1R27190 70 FHC, 79 S2 XJ12L
Gaithersburg, Maryland, United States
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In reply to a message from SGLP sent Fri 15 May 2015:

It looks right and feels right but I’m going to get an
‘‘OEM’’ seal from SNG Barratt and do it again.
Cheers–
Simon '68 E-Type OTS
Carlisle, MA, United States
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In reply to a message from PeterCrespin sent Sat 16 May 2015:

Peter,
Yes it was a Churchill tool. I only suggested a tool
error ‘‘in theory’’ as almost anything can go wrong in any
repair! I measured everything with mikes that were sized,
and in any case the measurements were relative, so a size
difference is confirmed.
The tool loan program is great and at least gives a guy a
chance to do things correctly.
It does seem clear that at least some problems of all
types in our restorations and repairs are due to the
occasional bad part. Some suppliers to our vendors may not
be consistent. The various chain tensioners being an
example. Clearly some ‘white’ seals are close to the correct
size yet the one I had was a mile long, and fat besides. The
black seal was perfect, Jaguar marked and from the same
supplier.–
The original message included these comments:

However, you made some remarks earlier that probably need
clarification:
The loan tools are nothing but original Churchill,
Zelenda,OTC,SPX etc. tools. These are sent around the
country fully insured and the insurance carrier is very
clear about them HAVING to be totally genuine or no dice.
where they were buried! :-)] The crank seal sizing tools
are very carefully polished to the final size - not merely
turned and the program has been going successfully for
nearly three years.


Larry Velk: '64 FHC,928, FZR1000, XR4ti, 325Ci
New Berlin, WI, United States
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In reply to a message from SGLP sent Sat 16 May 2015:

So this was a ‘looks right, feels right’ redo (after
cutting the rope) compared to your opening post where the
crank was nearly impossible to turn, right?

You are free to conclude what you like, but by the content
of your posts in this thread - swinging from impossible to
turn, to OK with cut seal - you’re in no position to
contradict the instructions Jaguar gave out, in capitals:
DO NOT cut the ends of the seal.

Pete–
The original message included these comments:

the crank would reasonably easily turn ( overcoming
stiction from STP/engine oil assembly cocktail). Then I
tightened down the seal housing. Crankshaft still turns
with the same torque applied.
In conclusion, I think the seals that come with the Payen
kit may need trimming to fit.


1E75339 66 D, 1R27190 70 FHC, 79 S2 XJ12L
Gaithersburg, Maryland, United States
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In reply to a message from PeterCrespin sent Sun 17 May 2015:

Because all parts available these days are ALWAYS made to
EXACTLY original specifications right?–
The original message included these comments:

turn, to OK with cut seal - you’re in no position to
contradict the instructions Jaguar gave out, in capitals:
DO NOT cut the ends of the seal.


Simon '68 E-Type OTS
Carlisle, MA, United States
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“…the instructions Jaguar gave out, in capitals:
DO NOT cut the ends of the seal…”

Presumably that only refers to a genuine Jaguar supplied seal Pete (I
assume Jaguar can still supply these seals??). Who knows whether the
aftermarket seals are made to the exact same dimensions and whether,
then, trimming is required? And, if it is required, how would one
know how much to trim??.On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 10:19 AM, PeterCrespin jag@thewritersbureau.com wrote:

In reply to a message from SGLP sent Sat 16 May 2015:

So this was a ‘looks right, feels right’ redo (after
cutting the rope) compared to your opening post where the
crank was nearly impossible to turn, right?

You are free to conclude what you like, but by the content
of your posts in this thread - swinging from impossible to
turn, to OK with cut seal - you’re in no position to
contradict the instructions Jaguar gave out, in capitals:
DO NOT cut the ends of the seal.

Pete


The original message included these comments:

the crank would reasonably easily turn ( overcoming
stiction from STP/engine oil assembly cocktail). Then I
tightened down the seal housing. Crankshaft still turns
with the same torque applied.
In conclusion, I think the seals that come with the Payen
kit may need trimming to fit.


1E75339 66 D, 1R27190 70 FHC, 79 S2 XJ12L
Gaithersburg, Maryland, United States
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Les…'68 S1.5 2+2


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In reply to a message from SGLP sent Fri 15 May 2015:

Dear Simon,

Since you are having problems, let’s look at what has been said and
what that means.

1/ You had difficulty inserting the rope seal into the groove.

The groove is sort of trapezium shaped in cross section. You’ll
need to press the seal a bit to make it have a more similar profile
to the groove it’ll have to fit into. To achieve this, the seal
will need to be more pliable. Soak it in oil beforehand as
recommended.

2/ You had an interference fit and the crank was hard if not almost
impossible to turn.

Clearly the seal is way too big and needs to be worked (sized)
further into the groove, such that it offers no resistance to the
crank.

3/ You’ve cut the seal rather than working it further into the
groove.

If the seal can touch the crank, this’ll have the effect of wanting
to make it spin on the crank. As it isn’t packed tightly enough,
it’ll try to do that now, so if it packs tighter after being worked
by the crank, something will give and you’ll find a gap at the end
opposite to the end which has been compressed round by the crank.
To get it started, I suggest you size it to get a basic shape and
then pry it out and put it into the groove with the joins at 12
o’clock and 6 o’clock and then gently and progressively tighten up
and size it. When you think it is well on the way to being sized,
pop it out and replace it in the conventional 3 o’clock and 9
o’clock positions and continue. This way you ought to be able to
compress it to shape, ends included, rather than cut it and face
ending up with a gap.

4/ Larry thinks his tool is too small.

There are two ways to answer this one… If once a micrometer is
put onto the tool, it really is found to be smaller than the crank,
then get some metal tape and press down the first 2-3mm of the end
onto the tool. For the remainder, coat the inside of the tape in
oil and pull the tape around so that you ultimately have a tool
which is at least the diameter of the crank and preferably 0.001-
0.002’’ greater diameter. Once done, as the tape is mostly not
secured to the tool, it’ll come off easily without scoring the
tool. A tool which is smaller than the crank does no useful work as
the seal will ultimately be sized on the crank. Contrary to Larry’s
speculation, the same tool is used for the v12 crank where the seal
sits very close to the rear main bearing as part of the rear main
bearing cap - this is why a Jaguar technical bulletin gives advice
about not heating up the bearing else warranty is voided. There is
no change in specification to the tool.

If the seal is sized on the crank, there is another bit of bad news
in that it’ll be spun over the oil groove. This will attempt to cut
into the rope surface rather than press the seal into the groove.

Keep in mind that the crankcase will almost always be under partial
vacuum and that the outside is at full atmospheric pressure. This
will tend to want to make oil be pulled back into the crankcase.

kind regards
Marek–
v12 E-type running MS3/3X sequential lpg and petrol
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In reply to a message from larebob sent Sat 16 May 2015:

My Zelenda J17B measures 3.1194
A crank I have measures 3.1252 so the tool undersizes the
seal by .0058

In addition to pre-sizing the seal the tool insures
concentricity.–
The original message included these comments:

The ‘‘factory’’ tool sourced from the Jaguar Club of North
America is SMALLER than the crank scroll by quite a few


Doug Buchan
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