Yesterday I took apart my HD-8’s as one was leaking and my
choke lever would no longer actuate the choke-- too stiff.
Though I had replaced the diaphragms less than 2 years ago
(when I rebuilt the carbs) I found that the diaphragms were
completely shot. I live in Oregon where now all automobile
gas sold has to contain 10% ethanol. I recently found that
neither my chainsaw nor my weedeater will run well with this
gas. I also just had to rebuild the carb on my 8hp Mercury
outboard, as the ethanol ruined the diaphragm in that carb
too. The guy at the boat shop told me ‘‘yeah, I see this all
the time’’.
I can buy non-ethanol gas intended for lawnmowers and boat
motors, but it is more expensive and I’m told it is against
State law to put it in any car more recent than a 1954
model. Since Oregon doesn’t allow you to pump your own gas,
I’d have to constantly troop down to the gas station with an
assortment of gas cans to fill up, then drive home and
transfer to my ‘‘Jaguar Lawnmower’’! My neighbor with a '65
FHC does just that.
Does anyone know if SNG, Joe Curto, or any of the other
usuals sell carb diaphragms that are impervious to ethanol?
Bruce Piper
Roseburg, OR
'61 OTS
'66 OTS
'63 MK 2–
1ecrumpet
Roseburg, Oregon, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from 1ecrumpet sent Sun 8 Nov 2009:
Bruce
I’ve heard of an increase in varnish build up, because of
the greater water absorption of ethanol gas, and the gas is
supposed to harm the fiberglass fuel tanks common in marine
applications, but I haven’t heard of the rubber
deteriorating. That’s not to say it’s not happening, but I
have not yet had any experience with it. Germany ban 10%
ethanol, because of the possible effects on pre 1997 cars FWIW.
Joel–
ex jag, '66 E-type S1 4.2, '56 XK140dhc, '97 XJ-6
Denison, TX, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from 1ecrumpet sent Sun 8 Nov 2009:
We’ve had Ethanol in the gas here in CA for as long as I can
remember, and never heard a problem. Mine are now about 11 years
old, and still just fine. I don’t doubt there are some rebuild
kits that supply crappy rubber parts, but I think if you stick to
genuine SU rebuild kits (which are not cheap…), you shouldn’t
have any problems.–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
Bruce, about 15 or 20 years ago there was a bunch of diaphragms
produced which were, in turn, sold by the usuals which were, IIRC, of
blue color and did perish pretty quickly in the presence of ethanol.
As I remember it, they simply dissolved a bit with big holes. They
have long since gone, BUT, that doesn’t mean that some folks still
aren’t selling their New-Old-Stock of them. Perhaps this is what
you’ve gotten. If not, horrors, there is a new batch of crap stuff out
there making the rounds! I certainly hope yours was just an anomaly.
When this happened to me I had just bought six kits ($$$$!!!) and
rebuilt mine and my father’s SU carbs. Unfortunately, when I found out
about it, it was too late for any redress. I tried and was turned
down. Plus, I had to do it all over again - with black diaphragms this
time.
No matter how we try, sometimes we emptors can’t caveat enough.
In reply to a message from Brian Ternamian sent Sun 8 Nov 2009:
Oh, dear. I’m just about to start re-assembly of my newly-bought
triple HD8 setup. It came with three older unopened kits. The
brand name is ‘‘Royz’’ and the diaphragms are blue. Has anybody had
any experience with these???
The old ones are black, and totally brittle.–
Bob Frisby, S2 FHC
Boise ID, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Brian Ternamian sent Sun 8 Nov 2009:
Brian,
As a matter of fact, the offending diaphragms are exactly as
you described-- blue, with holes in them, as well as varnish
build-up. Guess I got some of those old ones.
Bruce–
The original message included these comments:
Bruce, about 15 or 20 years ago there was a bunch of diaphragms
produced which were, in turn, sold by the usuals which were, IIRC, of
blue color and did perish pretty quickly in the presence of ethanol.
As I remember it, they simply dissolved a bit with big holes. They
–
1ecrumpet
Roseburg, Oregon, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
Once upon a time, I owned a 1980 Horizon (stop snickering). It had a
VW block, and a two barrel carburetor. The carb was separated from
the manifold by an inch thick rubber spacer. At this time, there was
a lot of experimentation with ethanol fuels, and for a while, they
were selling 10% ethanol as if it was real gasoline. After running
this stuff a while, the rubber block under my carb petrified and
split open. Chrysler supplied an aluminum spacer to replace it, and
made no bones about ethanol fuel being the cause. I thought that most
of the fuel components manufactured since that time were ethanol
resistant, but maybe not.
In reply to a message from Mike Frank sent Sun 8 Nov 2009:
‘‘Once upon a time, I owned a 1980 Horizon…’’ - Oh, Mike! I think
I’ve just lost ALL respect for you!
I worked at Chrysler at that time. Back then, there were plenty of
fuel system parts that did not do well in ethanol or methanol. But
that was back in the '70s, and those materials were quickly phased
out, since it was clear ‘‘gasohol’’ was coming, like it or not. So,
old rebuild kits should be avoided, but a new kit from any
reputable manufacturer should not present any problems whatsoever.
The only problem I’ve heard of on SUs were with the blue
diaphragms. I wouldn’t touch one of those with a 10 foot pole (or
even a 6 foot Swede…).–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
Oh stop. I was doing my patriotic duty, and supporting a U S of A
company. Truth be told, the Horizon was a great IDEA for a small car.
With a little more German, it could have been a Rabbit. AFAIK, it was
you who milled out my aluminum spacer. ;-).
Mike Frank
At 07:31 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
In reply to a message from Mike Frank sent Sun 8 Nov 2009:
Hi Mike ,
We had a TC3, basically the same car, drove it something over 100,000
miles and the only problems that I had, several times, was a plastic
like bushing in the gearshift linkage that would break every 20-30K
miles. I finally got to where I carried a spare just in case.
Bob
889076
Plymouth, Mi.On Nov 8, 2009, at 8:52 PM, Mike Frank wrote:
Oh stop. I was doing my patriotic duty, and supporting a U S of A
company. Truth be told, the Horizon was a great IDEA for a small
car. With a little more German, it could have been a Rabbit. AFAIK,
it was you who milled out my aluminum spacer. ;-).
Mike Frank
At 07:31 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
In reply to a message from Mike Frank sent Sun 8 Nov 2009:
‘‘Once upon a time, I owned a 1980 Horizon…’’ - Oh, Mike! I think
I’ve just lost ALL respect for you! I worked at Chrysler at
that time.
In reply to a message from 1ecrumpet sent Sun 8 Nov 2009:
Bruce, Before I retired my company made rubber which was
sold to rubber parts fabricators.The topic of seals in fuel
systems was a frequent topic of consultation with customers,
and was studied carefully in our laboratories. To cut a long
story short, with seals and diaphragms designed for use with
gasoline, the presence of 10% ethanol was not a big deal,
and is certainly not a cause for failure.While in your case
you definitely saw a failure, the reason for this more
likely lies in a product that would have failed in 100% gas
anyway. The problem most likely lies with the parts vendors
who either do not set service life specs ( with their
suppliers ), or who do not monitor product quality, or more
likely don’t do any of the above because they are not
technically competent to do any or all of these things. The
technology for making quality products for use in gas
environments is old hat and there is little excuse for
crappy products.We as consumers need to lean on our
suppliers, otherwise they will continue on as they are now!!!–
The original message included these comments:
Though I had replaced the diaphragms less than 2 years ago
(when I rebuilt the carbs) I found that the diaphragms were
completely shot. I live in Oregon where now all automobile
gas sold has to contain 10% ethanol. I recently found that
Bruce Piper
Roseburg, Oregon, United States
–
John M Holmes 1973 E Type SIII Supra 5Sp, 70 SII OTS 05XJ8L
Ontario, Canada
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
Continue the snickering, I also had one, an '86 tho. Never had a
problem with alcohol. Suspect it had a permanent fix by that time.
pauls 67ots
Once upon a time, I owned a 1980 Horizon (stop snickering). It had a
VW block, and a two barrel carburetor. The carb was separated from
the manifold by an inch thick rubber spacer. At this time, there was
a lot of experimentation with ethanol fuels, and for a while, they
were selling 10% ethanol as if it was real gasoline. After running
this stuff a while, the rubber block under my carb petrified and
split open. Chrysler supplied an aluminum spacer to replace it, and
made no bones about ethanol fuel being the cause. I thought that most
of the fuel components manufactured since that time were ethanol
resistant, but maybe not.
Mike Frank
<<<<<<<<<<From: Mike Frank mfrank@westnet.com
Subject: Re: [E-Type] Ethanol & Carb Diaphrams
In reply to a message from paul spurlock sent Mon 9 Nov 2009:
Well, I never owned one but I did a little service crew work
for a Pro-Rally Omni GLH. Damn fast once ya modified the
computer and suspension a bit… sit there at the POR and
watch Buffum, then Millen, then my buddy Steve in the GLH. I
asked him why he was going so slow to which he replied,
‘‘That’s as fast as it goes.’’ Order of magnitude slower than
the fatory boys…
Lester–
The original message included these comments:
Continue the snickering, I also had one, an '86 tho. Never had a
problem with alcohol. Suspect it had a permanent fix by that time.
pauls 67ots
In reply to a message from saabguy sent Mon 9 Nov 2009:
In 1983 I drew the short straw, as it were (no one else had
the guts, or the temerity) to tech inspect Buffum’s Audi
Quattro rally car. It was the first time I’d ever seen
carbon fiber on a car and MAN, was I impressed!
John was a decent guy and let mer crawl alll over that car!
Wished I’d been able to do the POR…–
The original message included these comments:
computer and suspension a bit… sit there at the POR and
watch Buffum, then Millen, then my buddy Steve in the GLH. I
–
Paul Wigton, steward to a '60 DKW 1000 SP, Tweety, '63 FHC!
Keenesburg, CO, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Wiggles sent Mon 9 Nov 2009:
You say that now, the 96 caught fire. Something about a loose
exhaust shooting flames onto the plastic oil gauge line, it
melts, shoots oil into engine bay, which causes fire which
melts plastic clutch line… And me with not enough cash to
get a new battery… so we tried to finish the stage with no
hood. When asked why I told the checkpoint workers it was so
we could see if a fire started. For some reason they thought
that was really funny…
Lester–
The original message included these comments:
In 1983 I drew the short straw, as it were (no one else had
the guts, or the temerity) to tech inspect Buffum’s Audi
Quattro rally car. It was the first time I’d ever seen
carbon fiber on a car and MAN, was I impressed!
Wished I’d been able to do the POR…
Paul Wigton, steward to a '60 DKW 1000 SP, Tweety, '63 FHC!
In reply to a message from John M Holmes sent Mon 9 Nov 2009:
This morning I called to order new diaphragms from one of
the usuals here on the west coast. I got a surprising
response. After describing my blue diaphragms
disintegrating, I was told ‘‘yes, we’ve heard a lot of that’’.
‘‘It may be the diaphragms we sell have that problem’’. I
asked whether the diaphragms they stocked were from the
‘‘original’’ or an '‘aftermarket’'supplier. He replied they are
‘‘Royzee’’(sp?) brand, and suggested I try another supplier!!
I then called another one of the usuals; they were aware of
the problem, and without prompting, mentioned ‘‘Royzee’’ as
the problematic brand! I ordered diaphragms from them that
are black (not blue) and from a different maker.
Sounds like the blue diaphragms from Royzee don’t hold up
well to ethanol-added gas.
Bruce Piper
Roseburg, OR–
The original message included these comments:
Bruce, Before I retired my company made rubber which was
sold to rubber parts fabricators.The topic of seals in fuel
systems was a frequent topic of consultation with customers,
and was studied carefully in our laboratories. To cut a long
story short, with seals and diaphragms designed for use with
gasoline, the presence of 10% ethanol was not a big deal,
and is certainly not a cause for failure.While in your case
you definitely saw a failure, the reason for this more
likely lies in a product that would have failed in 100% gas
anyway. The problem most likely lies with the parts vendors
who either do not set service life specs ( with their
–
1ecrumpet
Roseburg, Oregon, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from 1ecrumpet sent Mon 9 Nov 2009:
Hi,
I put new diaphrams in my E in 2002; they are
Blue…so I called my friendly dealer this am and he
said they were ‘‘Royze’’. So I called Royze and they said that
they had a problem about 10 years ago with ethanol/gas and
their supplier changed the material (still Blue!)and solved
their problem…
My dealer claims that his stock was fresh but their is no
way to tell what I have or you Guys!
To date I don’t have any Ethanol in my tank, have been
topping up with real Gas from the Marina. That is coming to
an end soon…
I plan to take out one of the Blue diaphrams and soak it in
Ethanol for a couple of months ( the Royze Guy says they
deteriorate quickly)…we shall see, maybe.
In the meantime follow Ray’s advice use SU black
ones.–
The original message included these comments:
response. After describing my blue diaphragms
disintegrating, I was told ‘‘yes, we’ve heard a lot of that’’.
‘‘It may be the diaphragms we sell have that problem’’. I
asked whether the diaphragms they stocked were from the
‘‘original’’ or an '‘aftermarket’'supplier. He replied they are
‘‘Royzee’’(sp?) brand, and suggested I try another supplier!!
I then called another one of the usuals; they were aware of
the problem, and without prompting, mentioned ‘‘Royzee’’ as
the problematic brand! I ordered diaphragms from them that
are black (not blue) and from a different maker.
Sounds like the blue diaphragms from Royzee don’t hold up
–
Adrian Brennan
Marine Hills,Federal Way, WA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Adrian Brennan sent Mon 9 Nov 2009:
FWIW, I just replaced the diaphrams in my carbs because the center
one ruptured. They were blue. When I took them out they were
quite stiff. I replaced them with the black one’s in the kits Welsh
sells. Welsh also had the best pricing, BTW.–
The original message included these comments:
I plan to take out one of the Blue diaphrams and soak it in
Ethanol for a couple of months ( the Royze Guy says they
deteriorate quickly)…we shall see, maybe.
In the meantime follow Ray’s advice use SU black
ones.
–
John Walker, 1969 2+2 - ‘Lola’
La Porte, Tex, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
I worked at Chrysler at that time.______________________________________________________