[E-Type] Ignition Idiot light?

Michael_Frank · July 27, 2004, 12:24am

At 07:28 PM 7/26/2004, you wrote:

I assume the fix for this is a new oil pressure sender? I’ve priced those
at the “usuals” and have placed it on the “someday” or “post-lottery win”
category. =)

Chuck:

I’m pretty sure that your car will have TWO oil pressure senders. One for
the idiot light and one for the gauge. They should be on the right side of
the motor, have a look. Is it possible that you really have an oil pressure
problem? It may be worth hooking up a mechanical gauge, if only as a test tool.

Mike Frank

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Michael_Frank · July 27, 2004, 12:21am

Yup.

Mike Frank

At 07:18 PM 7/26/2004, you wrote:

So does that mean my “ignition” light is really a “low oil pressure” light
then?

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chuck_goolsbee · July 27, 2004, 7:52am

I’m pretty sure that your car will have TWO oil pressure senders.
One for the idiot light and one for the gauge. They should be on the
right side of the motor, have a look.

OK, took a look tonight, and here is what I found:

There is only ONE oil pressure sender, above the oil filter. It does
have two leads though. The rear (firewall side) lead is attached to a
same/similar brown/purple wire that appears on the “ignition light”
wire in the speedo (and also appears on the alternator). The “front”
(radiator side) lead is connected to a black wire. BOTH of the wires
go up from the top of the sender and come together in the fabric wire
harness wrap just above the oil filter and head forward towards the
distributor on a frame rail.

I can take photos if anyone needs a clearer picture.

“Real” work kept me busy until after midnight, so I have not had a
chance to fire up the engine to try other tests or observations.

If this were a network (an environment I am familiar with) I would
pull the “sender” & “alternator” end of the wire(s) and send a tone
down it, and probe/listen the far (speedo) side of the wire to see
which (brown/purple) wire actually goes to the speedo/light. I have
no idea if that is correct procedure with electrical wire. Are all
electrical wires point-to-point, or can they have multiple “ends?” Of
course my test gear is all set up to send tone down very different
wire types/connectors.

I guess I could also fire up the engine, observe the glowing light,
and yank one, the other, and then both of them and observe the
ignition light glow and note changes.

Can you tell I have no idea what I am doing? =)

I’m not looking to “fix” anything though, so much as learn what I am
looking at.–
–chuck goolsbee
65ots, 1E10715
arlington, wa, usa

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Andrew_Waugh · July 27, 2004, 7:52am

In reply to a message from Mike Frank sent Tue 27 Jul 2004:

The lamp wired to the pressure switch isn't an oil pressure

lamp, it is an ‘attention you have ignition, but not oil pressure’
lamp. The lamp goes out when you have both, or neither.
I can speak for 2x SI OTS’s (both '66) with 3AWs - perhaps they
were modified, but I would doubt it.

Mike: Depending on how the Diodes/windings fail, wouldn't it be

possible for the tap to be toasted but the alternator could still
deliver current - albeit chopped noisy not quite DC which will kill
the batt over time, but nonetheless show a positive charge at the
Ammeter?

Garth: why do you say Mike's solid state 3AW is dubious?  Do

you mean that you think that the problem isn’t the 3AW at all? Is
your objection an originality one?

I was at Mikes site last night.  I'm having a problem with an

RB310 regulator on a saloon, and I’d gladly replace it with a solid
state unit, if I could hide it in the original RB310 case.

Andrew–
The original message included these comments:

take off on the alternator then passed through a ‘‘3AW’’ kinda switchy thing
which drives the light.
I’m not sure where the cutoff is. For sure, all S1.5 & S2 cars have the 3AW
relay. But It’s possible that most S1 4.2 cars had the pressure switch.
Its possible that the special output from the alternator could be toast
and the car would still charge fine.
No, this isn’t possible. It’s possible that the wiring between the
alternator and 3AW relay is bad, or the relay is bad. But the ''special
Mike Frank has a replacement device for the 3AW which works but is dubious
at best.
?Dubious? I don’t know of any failures of my device, which is more than

–
1968 3.8S
Zurich, Switzerland
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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Garth_Nicholson · July 27, 2004, 9:50am

In reply to a message from chuck goolsbee sent Tue 27 Jul 2004:

Chuck,

Yes, thats right, but only if the lamp is wired to a pressure
switch.

As I said, the switch should be screwed into the engine block, just
in front of the aluminium oil filter housing (NOT the housing
itself). This is NOT the same as the oil pressure sender which is
screwed into the top of the aluminium oil filter housing. There
should be two seperate senders.

You said in another post that there were two wires from the oil
pressure sender, one of which appeared to go to the ignition
warning lamp? If this is the case, it may be causing the lamp to
light in the way you describe. Can you disconnect the wire from the
pressure sender and confirm it leads to the lamp? If it does, then
someone has probably removed the pressure switch from your block,
and then just put its wire onto the oil pressure sender unit by
mistake.

You could always just remove both wires from the sender unit and
run the car and see if the lamp lights. If it doesnt then you
probably just need to fit a pressure switch in the block and re-
connect it.

Regards,

Garth.–
The original message included these comments:

So does that mean my ‘‘ignition’’ light is really a ‘‘low oil pressure’’
light then?

–
Dr.G
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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Garth_Nicholson · July 27, 2004, 10:45am

In reply to a message from Andrew Waugh sent Tue 27 Jul 2004:

Andrew,

I didn’t say it was dubious, maybe someone else did? I was just
trying to say that I don’t think Chucks car should be fitted with a
3AW unit at all.

All we have to do is establish where the wire to the lamp goes. If
its to a pressure switch in the block, or incorrectly fitted to the
oil pressure sender, then there is no point trying to troubleshoot
a component that doesn’t exist (the 3AW unit).

People seem to assume that everyone elses car is just like their
own.

Regards,

Garth.–
The original message included these comments:

Garth: why do you say Mike's solid state 3AW is dubious?  Do 
you mean that you think that the problem isn’t the 3AW at all? Is
your objection an originality one?

–
Dr.G
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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Andrew_Waugh · July 27, 2004, 11:23am

In reply to a message from Dr.G sent Tue 27 Jul 2004:

Sorry, didn’t read carefully, it was Paul’s point I was responding
to, not yours. My apologies.

Andrew–
The original message included these comments:

I didn’t say it was dubious, maybe someone else did? I was just

–
1968 3.8S
Zurich, Switzerland
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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Michael_Frank · July 27, 2004, 12:20pm

At 03:52 AM 7/27/2004, you wrote:

If this were a network (an environment I am familiar with) I would pull
the “sender” & “alternator” end of the wire(s) and send a tone down it,
and probe/listen the far (speedo) side of the wire to see which
(brown/purple) wire actually goes to the speedo/light. I have no idea if
that is correct procedure with electrical wire. Are all electrical wires
point-to-point, or can they have multiple “ends?” Of course my test gear
is all set up to send tone down very different wire types/connectors.

That will work with car wiring, although you may need to disconnect the
component from ground. The color code is usually enough to identify the
wire: have you checked the wiring diagram?

Does your transmitter have an alligator clip? I keep meaning to buy a toner.

Mike Frank

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paul_spurlock · July 27, 2004, 12:54pm

Garth,
My assumtion was obviously incorrect and the schematics (after checking) does say that the 3AW was on “later cars”. I guess my old idea of a idiot light leaked through. Given that it was connected to the op sw. originally WHY did they call it “ign warning”, silly me! By anyone else’s description it would have been a low op warning light. Then of course they removed the op function and tied it to the 3AW and still called it ign warning, when its function was charging system related. No wonder we’re confused :-
pauls 67ots

In reply to a message from Paul Spurlock sent Mon 26 Jul 2004:

Paul,

As I said, my S1 '64 4.2 has a pressure switch, and all 4.2 cars
were originally fitted with alternators as far as I’m aware.

So just to reiterate, the 3AW unit was not fitted to the earlier s1
4.2 cars, but I’m unsure as to when the change was made. If Tom has
a '66 with a pressure switch, then Chucks car should probably have
a pressure switch, unless it’s a modification (or Tom’s car is
modified for that matter).

Regards,

Garth.
<<<<<<<<<<

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Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomoFrom: “Dr.G” dr_nicholson@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [E-Type] Ignition Idiot light?

Michael_Frank · July 27, 2004, 12:49pm

At 03:52 AM 7/27/2004, you wrote:

Mike: Depending on how the Diodes/windings fail, wouldn't it be
possible for the tap to be toasted but the alternator could still
deliver current - albeit chopped noisy not quite DC which will kill
the batt over time, but nonetheless show a positive charge at the
Ammeter?

Yes and no. Behind the AL connector, there’s a half inch piece of wire
which connects directly to the stator. I suppose that piece of wire could
be broken, but not intermittently. If one stator coil was bad, you would
probably show 12V DC on the voltmeter (or no charge in the case of an
ammeter).

It is possible for a diode to be bad or weak, and there still to be a
charge. But that has nothing to do with the idiot light, which at best
reflects the condition of the AC side of the system.

You never get clean DC from an alternator. In the best of circumstances,
there is always an AC ripple. In fact, some modern cars use the alternator
ripple to drive their tachometers. There is a distinctive scope pattern for
a broken coil, bad diode, internal short, etc which would make diagnosis
easy. The only problem is, how many folks own a labscope?

I was at Mikes site last night.  I'm having a problem with an
RB310 regulator on a saloon, and I’d gladly replace it with a solid
state unit, if I could hide it in the original RB310 case.

Try these guys, they have a Lucas version. NAYYY, let us know how it works out:

http://www.edknet.de/archiv6.htm

Mike Frank

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paul_spurlock · July 27, 2004, 1:04pm

Chuck,
It appears that your IGN Warning lamp is indeed a low op warning lamp, go figure… Good news tho that is likely easier to fix than a 3AW problem. Unless of course you actually have low op, which I assume/hope you don’t.

Just as well you don’t drive in conditions that need the demister, you might not know if it was on or off even if it were connected
pauls 67ots

So just to reiterate, the 3AW unit was not fitted to the earlier s1
4.2 cars, but I’m unsure as to when the change was made. If Tom has
a '66 with a pressure switch, then Chucks car should probably have
a pressure switch, unless it’s a modification (or Tom’s car is
modified for that matter).

So does that mean my “ignition” light is really a “low oil pressure”
light then?

–chuck goolsbee
65ots, 1E10715
arlington, wa, usa

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Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomoFrom: chuck goolsbee cg@goolsbee.org
Subject: Re: [E-Type] Ignition Idiot light?

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:17:33 -0700
From: chuck goolsbee cg@goolsbee.org
Subject: Re: [E-Type] Ignition Idiot light?

Chuck,
I don’t know what that is but I do know why your demister doesn’t work

yeah, me too. =)

I try not to drive if it will be required.

<<<<<<<<<<<<

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Paul_Bjarnason · July 27, 2004, 1:11pm

Gentlefolk -

The strangest thing happened to my car yesterday, a 4.0 litre Jeep
engine. While on a trip, I pulled into a toll booth and I smelled
over-heating. Just then, the idiot light which signals overheating came
on. I paid the toll and immediately pulled over, popped the hood, and
saw coolant dribbling onto the pavement. It appeared to be coming from
the area of the water pump. I checked the water pump shaft for wobble,
and there was none. The hoses appeared to be OK. So, I couldn’t
determine any mechanical defect. I decided to attempt to make it to the
next service area on the turnpike. I started the engine and pulled back
onto the turnpike. The idiot light went out immediately and never came
back on. 10 miles later I made it to the service area. I checked the
under-hood situation and there was no further coolant loss. The engine
appeared to be at normal operating temperature. I added a little water
to the coolant tank to make up for the lost coolant and proceed to drive
another 80 miles, to complete my journey. There is nothing wrong with
the car so far as I can tell. The only thing I can imagine that happened
is that the thermostat got stuck temporarily. But, I never heard of
that happening on a fully warmed up engine.

Any ideas out there?

TIA.

Bjarn

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paul_spurlock · July 27, 2004, 1:20pm

Mike,
Poor grammer!!! I meant the 3AW works but was dubious, not your replacement Sometimes it would be much simpler if I could say English wasn’t my primary language…
pauls 67ots

Mike Frank has a replacement device for the 3AW which works but is dubious
at best.

?Dubious? I don’t know of any failures of my device, which is more than
Lucas can say…

Mike Frank
<<<<<<<<<<

Search the archives & forums - http://search.jag-lovers.org/
Subscription changes - http://www.jag-lovers.com/cgi-bin/majordomoFrom: Mike Frank mfrank@westnet.com
Subject: Re: [E-Type] Ignition Idiot light?

paul_spurlock · July 27, 2004, 1:31pm

Thanks Andrew, its all crystal clear now… of course unless you have the 3AW like we do

“Garth: why do you say Mike’s solid state 3AW is dubious?”

That was me not Garth. I didn’t mean Mike’s was dubious I meant that the 3AW was dubious Bad grammer…
pauls 67ots>>>>>>>>>>>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:52:54 +0200
From: “Andrew Waugh” andrew.waugh@bluewin.ch
Subject: Re: [E-Type] Ignition Idiot light?

In reply to a message from Mike Frank sent Tue 27 Jul 2004:

The lamp wired to the pressure switch isn't an oil pressure

lamp, it is an ‘attention you have ignition, but not oil pressure’
lamp. The lamp goes out when you have both, or neither.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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soothsayer1 · July 27, 2004, 1:41pm

I once drove from Callifornia to Denver Colo. with a worn out water pump
bearing and leaking seal. The trick was to not shut the motor off. As long
as it ran, the pump ran, pulling the water away from the bearing and seal,
hence it didn’t leak. When I got to Denver (about a 26 hour drive at that
time) I drove directly to a junk yard and bought a “new” water pump.
Why, yes, I was poor then. How did you know?
LLoyd

Paul Bjarnason wrote:

Gentlefolk -

The strangest thing happened to my car yesterday, a 4.0 litre Jeep
engine. While on a trip, I pulled into a toll bo …

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Andrew_Waugh · July 27, 2004, 1:38pm

In reply to a message from Paul Spurlock sent Tue 27 Jul 2004:

I can at least say English isn’t my primary language. It’s my
mother tongue (and I have an honors Ba in Philosophy and English
Lit.), but German is my primary language (not that my German is all
that fantastic either). I, at least have an excuse

(I was surprised to see Mike getting hammered)

Andrew–
The original message included these comments:

Thanks Andrew, its all crystal clear now… of course unless you have the 3AW like we do
‘‘Garth: why do you say Mike’s solid state 3AW is dubious?’’
That was me not Garth. I didn’t mean Mike’s was dubious I meant that the 3AW was dubious Bad grammer…

–
1968 3.8S
Zurich, Switzerland
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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tom_felts · July 27, 2004, 2:06pm

Piece of trash in the system that got hung up then broke free–just waiting
to act up again???

[Original Message]
From: Paul Bjarnason bearson@crosslink.net
To: e-type@jag-lovers.org
Date: 7/27/04 1:11:51 PM
Subject: [E-Type] Strangest thing - non-Jag, but could be Jag

Gentlefolk -

The strangest thing happened to my car yesterday, a 4.0 litre Jeep
engine. While on a trip, I pulled into a toll booth and I smelled
over-heating. Just then, the idiot light which signals overheating came
on. I paid the toll and immediately pulled over, popped the hood, and
saw coolant dribbling onto the pavement. It appeared to be coming from
the area of the water pump. I checked the water pump shaft for wobble,
and there was none. The hoses appeared to be OK. So, I couldn’t
determine any mechanical defect. I decided to attempt to make it to the
next service area on the turnpike. I started the engine and pulled back
onto the turnpike. The idiot light went out immediately and never came
back on. 10 miles later I made it to the service area. I checked the
under-hood situation and there was no further coolant loss. The engine
appeared to be at normal operating temperature. I added a little water
to the coolant tank to make up for the lost coolant and proceed to drive
another 80 miles, to complete my journey. There is nothing wrong with
the car so far as I can tell. The only thing I can imagine that happened
is that the thermostat got stuck temporarily. But, I never heard of
that happening on a fully warmed up engine.

Any ideas out there?

TIA.

Bjarn

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chuck_goolsbee · July 27, 2004, 2:23pm

At 03:52 AM 7/27/2004, you wrote:

If this were a network (an environment I am familiar with) I would
pull the “sender” & “alternator” end of the wire(s) and send a tone
down it, and probe/listen the far (speedo) side of the wire to see
which (brown/purple) wire actually goes to the speedo/light. I have
no idea if that is correct procedure with electrical wire. Are all
electrical wires point-to-point, or can they have multiple “ends?”
Of course my test gear is all set up to send tone down very
different wire types/connectors.

That will work with car wiring, although you may need to disconnect
the component from ground.

Thank you.

The color code is usually enough to identify the wire: have you
checked the wiring diagram?

Assuming that reality and a diagram concur may be risky here. But
I’ll have a look. =)

Does your transmitter have an alligator clip? I keep meaning to buy a toner.

Mike Frank

Mine doesn’t, but I am pretty sure one we have at work does. I’ll
give it a try.–
–chuck goolsbee
65ots, 1E10715
arlington, wa, usa

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Michael_Frank · July 27, 2004, 2:58pm

A few thoughts, not being familiar with the car. First would be the
possibility of an air bubble in the system. I’m not sure how that could
happen on your particular engine, but worth a look. Another possibility is
a malfunctioning fan control, if you have an electric fan or clutch fan.
Finally, could be a slipping belt. I had a similar problem with my old
Mercedes. Turned out to be a bad compressor clutch, which intermittently
caused the pulley to seize and the serpentine belt to slip. May I say here
that whoever invented the serp belt was a devil: when something goes wrong,
you can end up replacing just about everything before you zero in on the
trouble.

Mike Frank

At 10:06 AM 7/27/2004, you wrote:

The strangest thing happened to my car yesterday, a 4.0 litre Jeep
engine.

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Ken_Roy · July 27, 2004, 5:40pm

In reply to a message from chuck goolsbee sent Mon 26 Jul 2004:

If you have a 3AW relay ( I do on my 69 xke), it should be right
under the heater box on the firewall. It looks EXACTLY like a
cylindrical, turn-signal flasher. I thought it was a flaher &
replaced it with a turn-signal flasher. Right after that, my
alternater quit working (coincidental??)
Try www.coolcatcorp.com/faqs/Lucasalternators.html for a great
explanation of the system.
I replaced my alternator with a non-lucas brand that fits perfectly
& eliminates the regulator, 3AW relay, & alternator relay.
See my ‘Alternator Replacement’ posting within the last month for a
better explanation.

Ken Roy–
Ken Roy
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