[E-Type] Leaded gas?

there is a delta sonic near my house that sells leaded
gas. Would this fuel be beneficial for a 71 S II?–
Walter - Buffalo NY - 1971 S-II Roadster
buffalo NY, United States
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In reply to a message from Walter sent Sun 28 Jun 2015:

Interesting. I thought that stuff was outlawed and NLA.

My understanding is the valve seats pressed into aluminum XK
heads are semi-hard chilled cast iron which tolerate unleaded
fuel quite well, although perhaps not as well as stellite. I
used to use a lead substitute in my fuel until advised by some
of the more whiskered ones in this forum that it really wasn’t
necessary.–
The original message included these comments:

there is a delta sonic near my house that sells leaded
gas. Would this fuel be beneficial for a 71 S II?


Nick Saltarelli '68 Cdn mkt E-type S1� OTS, '54 XK120SE OTS
Niagara, Ontario, Canada
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In reply to a message from Walter sent Sun 28 Jun 2015:

Walter,

I have used leaded fuel a few times at race tracks and for
a few days after. If you do, presumably you’ll have better
octane rating, though if you are not getting knocking it
won’t help at all. The lead will give you a nice brown
coat to the inside of your exhaust pipes, and you will be
able to use your spark plug color to tune the car a little
better. However, the spark plugs and perhaps exhaust
system will corrode faster if you use it much. If you get
your oil analyzed they will be able to tell you used it for
several fillups.

Overall not much change.

Jerry–
Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
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In reply to a message from Walter sent Sun 28 Jun 2015:

Walter - are you sure the fuel is leaded?
I bet its non ethanol, not leaded.

But if you can find leaded yeah, it’d be great for an E-type as it
was designed for leaded way back when. Jaguar made the head easy to
remove so one could decarbonize the combustion chamber. Removal of
the lead & oil deposits was SOP way back then.

No problem running unleaded unless your fuel system is dirty.
Unleaded will ‘‘scrub’’ your tank & pipes clean and bring it to low
points. Filters hopefully, carb jets perhaps.
Dave

Dave–
1969 BRG OTS
Skaneateles, NY, United States
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In reply to a message from David Ahlers sent Mon 29 Jun 2015:

I don’t know of any retail gasoline vendors in the United
Stated that legally offer leaded fuels for road use. I put
100 octane, leaded aviation gas in my tank during the summer
months my E-type lays up so there is zero chance of adverse
any ethanol effects over time. I source that from an
aviation supplier. Some boat docks offer non-ethanol, low
octane fuel. If you have valve seats originally designed for
leaded motor fuels, then you probably need to change out
those valve seats.–
The original message included these comments:

But if you can find leaded yeah, it’d be great for an E-type as it
was designed for leaded way back when. Jaguar made the head easy to
remove so one could decarbonize the combustion chamber. Removal of
the lead & oil deposits was SOP way back then.
No problem running unleaded unless your fuel system is dirty.
Unleaded will ‘‘scrub’’ your tank & pipes clean and bring it to low
points. Filters hopefully, carb jets perhaps.


Mr. Nice Spokes
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In reply to a message from Walter sent Sun 28 Jun 2015:

I find that hard to believe… It has been illegal to sell
leaded gas for on-the-road vehicles anywhere in the US for
at least 30 years. It can be legally sold only for
aircraft, boats (even that may now have been phased out),
and off-road use. It is, technically, illegal to even use
leaded fuel in a road car.–
The original message included these comments:

there is a delta sonic near my house that sells leaded
gas. Would this fuel be beneficial for a 71 S II?

Walter - Buffalo NY - 1971 S-II Roadster


Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Mon 29 Jun 2015:

I can’t buy it(avgas)from the airport. I have to use a
friend with a sport pane to get 5 gal. There is a Sunoco gas
station near by with a 100 octane pump that is un-leaded and
with ethanol. I’ve never tried it as it might be stale. That
‘‘STA-BIL 360’’ seems to be the trick for laying up a tank of
ethanol fuel. I understand Shell is coming out with a new
premium octane blend…Nitro or some such name.–
Mr. Nice Spokes
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In reply to a message from Nice Spokes sent Mon 29 Jun 2015:

Please provide reference documentation (any credible link
would be fine) that supports the idea that gasoline with
tetra-ethyl lead anti-knock additive does anything to valve
seats.
If you look at the action of the cam, you will realize that
the valve is gently – gently – brought back to the seat as
it closes. The idea that, somehow, TEL provides some sort
of lubrication to the exhaust valve seat is not based on
fact. Remember, the exhaust valve opens AFTER the
combustion event, which consumes TEL in the process.–
The original message included these comments:

octane fuel. If you have valve seats originally designed for
leaded motor fuels, then you probably need to change out
those valve seats.


Pete Peterson 70E(193K) XJ40s(88-270K,89-97K, 94-122K)
Severna Park, Maryland, United States
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In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Mon 29 Jun 2015:

I have a Sunoco station that sells high octane leaded and
unleaded fuel about 5 miles from me. They will NOT sell
the leaded and all but one unleaded for street use. I have
used their 260GT, which is 100 octane unleaded, and saw
little difference that was worth the price difference from
normal premium 91 fuel.

Sunoco’s web site has a location search and good info on
their fuels.

http://racegas.com/fuel/compare--
Ralph, 1970 FHC, 1R27295
Coastal NJ, United States
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In reply to a message from Jaguarpete sent Mon 29 Jun 2015:

http://tinyurl.com/pxpvgl8

One of many – use Google to find more.

Jerry–
Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
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In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Mon 29 Jun 2015:

It’s Sunoco race gas and some types are leaded. See here

Also, 100LL Avgas sold at every airport contains lead.–
The original message included these comments:

I find that hard to believe… It has been illegal to sell


Clive, '62 Coupe 860320
Ontario, Canada
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In reply to a message from Jaguarpete sent Mon 29 Jun 2015:

‘‘Please provide reference documentation…’’

Here you go (if you believe the people who make it):-

http://www.racegas.com/article/38--
The original message included these comments:

Please provide reference documentation (any credible link
would be fine) that supports the idea that gasoline with
tetra-ethyl lead anti-knock additive does anything to valve
seats.


Clive, '62 Coupe 860320
Ontario, Canada
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In reply to a message from mouton sent Mon 29 Jun 2015:

Thanks for the suggestion. I did a Google search for
‘‘Exhaust Valve Seat Tribology’’ and found this reference


In a nut shell, it appears that TEL did provide a modicum of
valve seat protection for the exhaust valve but, as the
cited reference shows, ash residues from engine oil in the
combustion products performed the same function.–
The original message included these comments:

http://tinyurl.com/pxpvgl8
One of many – use Google to find more.


Pete Peterson 70E(193K) XJ40s(88-270K,89-97K, 94-122K)
Severna Park, Maryland, United States
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In reply to a message from Clive Wilkinson sent Mon 29 Jun 2015:

Clive,

Please read ALL of what I wrote. Racing gas is NOT legal
for use in road cars, nor it AvGas. It can be put in
aircraft, race cars, and, I believe, boats (for now…).
Putting it into a road car, or selling it to be put into a
road car, is a violation of federal law.–
The original message included these comments:

It’s Sunoco race gas and some types are leaded. See here
http://www.racegas.com/fuel/compare
Also, 100LL Avgas sold at every airport contains lead.

Clive, '62 Coupe 860320


Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from Jaguarpete sent Mon 29 Jun 2015:

That’s an odd (and long) reference, Pete. It doesn’t really
deal with lead, but I did find one mention (below). Doesn’t
seem to support your point, though. Was that the reference
you intended?

‘‘During the last three decades, an environmental awareness
has arisen, which has led to several kinds of exhaust
limitations. By removing lead from the fuels in order to
facilitate catalytic converters and reducing atmospheric
lead pollution, the beneficial tribofilms from the lead
component was removed and the wear of some critical engine
components accelerated dramatically [4,5].’’–
The original message included these comments:

‘‘Exhaust Valve Seat Tribology’’ and found this reference
http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:639359/FULLTEXT01.pdf
In a nut shell, it appears that TEL did provide a modicum of
valve seat protection for the exhaust valve but, as the
cited reference shows, ash residues from engine oil in the
combustion products performed the same function.


Bob Wilkinson, 73 XJ6
Saint Louis, MO, United States
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In reply to a message from Robert Wilkinson sent Mon 29 Jun 2015:

‘’…the beneficial tribofilms from the lead component was
removed and the wear of some critical engine components
accelerated dramatically [4,5].’’ - That would be a hard
position to argue for, given that modern cars have reached a
level of reliability and durability nobody would have
dreamed possible 30 years ago. A well-maintained modern car
will go 200K miles, and STILL not go thousands of miles on a
quart of oil. So, the impact of that ‘‘dramatically
accelerated wear’’ is of no real-world consequence.–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from Robert Wilkinson sent Mon 29 Jun 2015:

Certainly was, Rob. My point continues to be that TEL was
always intended to be an octane improver and, as the
reference states, valve seat tribology was a side issue,
discovered much later. And, it turns out, oil ash provides
the very same function. Given how the XK engine burns a
good bit of oil normally, I’m not at all concerned that lack
of TEL somehow puts my valves at risk.–
The original message included these comments:

That’s an odd (and long) reference, Pete. It doesn’t really
deal with lead, but I did find one mention (below). Doesn’t
seem to support your point, though. Was that the reference
you intended?


Pete Peterson 70E(193K) XJ40s(88-270K,89-97K, 94-122K)
Severna Park, Maryland, United States
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In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Mon 29 Jun 2015:

No argument from me, Ray. Pete provided a citation for his
point that lead never did much for valve seats. Not my
recollection, and the citation doesn’t seem to say this
either. BTW, the accelerated wear was seen in engines of the
day, designed for use with lead. Modern engines are designed
without soft valve seats (and without flat tappets as well)
so that petrol and oil additives that were necessary back in
the day are no longer needed.–
The original message included these comments:

dreamed possible 30 years ago. A well-maintained modern car
will go 200K miles, and STILL not go thousands of miles on a
quart of oil. So, the impact of that ‘‘dramatically
accelerated wear’’ is of no real-world consequence.


Bob Wilkinson, 73 XJ6
Saint Louis, MO, United States
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In reply to a message from Robert Wilkinson sent Mon 29 Jun 2015:

Thanks everyone! Very interesting dialogue. I will check
the source of this info and drive out to the place to
verify. But I appreciate the education in any case.

Walter–
Walter - Buffalo NY - 1971 S-II Roadster
buffalo NY, United States
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In reply to a message from Walter sent Mon 29 Jun 2015:

Leaded vs unleaded;

As I recall, the early concern with the use of non leaded
in older engines was valve seat wear.

Old engines had no seat inserts. the seats were ground
directly into the iron block. some blocks fairly soft.
Others hard as h… Old tine auto machinists can testify to
that. The boring bar took a real hit on old Hudsons.

Over revving will pound out seats. OK to ask!!

Things settled down. Old cars driven reasonably did just
fine and still do on unleaded. At least as well as ever,
cause they did need valve jobs far more frequently than
more modern engines.

Jaguar made the heads on thee engines easy to remove to
decarbon??? Really!!!

Early gasoline burned very dirty and carbon cleaning was
needed, at times quite often. Contributed to, by early
engine design. Most ran rich on purpose.

Carl–
Carl Hutchins 1983 Jaguar XJ6 with LT1 and 1994 Jeep Grand
Walnut Creek, California, United States
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