[E-Type] MacGregor vs SNGB door seals - profile comparison

It was an almost perfect day for the Ancaster British Car Flea
Market. Alan Dell (aka ‘‘ajdell’’) fetched me in his gorgeous BRG
1969 OTS and we motored an hour each way with the top down, windows
up and heater on. Glorious. Haven’t smiled this much since driving
with Claude Roy (aka ‘‘jagcopter’’) in his '70 2+2 last summer. We
met up with Claude at the event. As Alan and I were walking back to
the car at the end of things the only car left in the parking lot
with a group of people oggling it was his:

Ken Hiebert (aka ‘‘6 speed’’) and I made arrangements to meet and
compare door seals provided by Martin MacGregor vs SNGB. This is a
shot of the A-post seal profiles at the bottom end, SNGB seal on
the left:

A-post seal profiles at the top end, SNGB on the right:

and B-post profiles, SNGB on the right:

rubber stiffness is about the same but as seen in the photos the
SNGB seals are heavier. FWIW.–
Nick Saltarelli '68 Cdn mkt E-type S1� OTS, '54 XK120SE OTS
Niagara, Ontario, Canada
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In reply to a message from N�ck sent Sun 20 Apr 2014:

I recently threw away (reluctantly) a box of NOS rubber seals from
XK’s and E’s. They were given to me in the 70’s and stored in a hot
barn for 40+ years - they were un-usable. If someone could make
seals today for Jags that have the same shape and softness as the
originals, everyone here would beat a path to their door. Some of
the new ones don’t come close to the original shapes.

Phil.–
PhilW
Virginville, Pa., United States
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In reply to a message from PhilW sent Sun 20 Apr 2014:

C O H Baines. Catalogue is a bit archaic but they have a
Hag sub-catalogue. Look 'em up. Been recommended here a
few times.

Pete–
The original message included these comments:

barn for 40+ years - they were un-usable. If someone could make
seals today for Jags that have the same shape and softness as the
originals, everyone here would beat a path to their door. Some of
the new ones don’t come close to the original shapes.


1E75339 66 D, 885958 62 FHC,1R27190 70 FHC
Gaithersburg, Maryland, United States
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In reply to a message from PeterCrespin sent Mon 21 Apr 2014:

Thanks for the post Nick. Let me know if you try MacGregors
and how they fit if you do. I just spent countless hours and
chipped paint getting the SNG to fit correctly on my drivers
door. I ended up ripping (literally) the seal out and
getting the boot seal and tearing that out as well. Figured
I would wait to see if anything better and verified comes
up. I know it wont be perfect but the SNG fit was horrendous.–
Peter 1965 4.2 OTS 10004,51 MGTC,H1
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In reply to a message from N�ck sent Sun 20 Apr 2014:

I recently replaced all of the door seals on my '67 coupe and had
the usual problems with fitment. I searched the archives here and
posted some requests for help - and several responded with some
very helpful hints.

Granted, my car is a coupe, but I’m confused by your photos and
have to wonder if you have mixed up the supplier names in your
pictures. I ordered my seals from Welsh(a complete kit)and one A
post seal from SNGB (to see if it was different). But they were
identical - even had the same hand written numbers on them, so they
were made by the same molder or extruder. As you can see in my
pictures, the Welsh and SNGB parts are black, while the other brand
in your photos is a light grey color.

Any way, I have to say this was not a fun job - in fact it is the
least favorite of all things I’ve ever had to do on my car. But
the good news is the seals are good - they do work and work very
well once they are installed correctly. I went though the usual
struggle on the passenger side. I installed the seals and the door
just would not close. The window frame was bending out, and then if
I did get the door closed by slamming it with all my might, I could
not pull it open. So off came the newly installed seals and I had
to reclean the channels of all the glue.

To fix the problem with the A post seal, I used some super glue and
glued the one sealing flap down as shown in my first picture.
This ‘‘L’’ shape is the way the seal will sit in place with the
window frame pushing it down. The trouble is the force required to
push the rubber down to this shape along the full length of the
seal is just too great making it too hard to close the door. With
the flap glued to the base of the seal (glued together as shown),
the seal was then bonded to the car with Weldwood contact cement
and the door closed just fine. No more trying to bend the window
frame out.

Next came the B post fitment. You have the same problem here as the
seals just seem to be too thick. When I bonded the first one in,
the seal surface was flush or even above the surface of the rear
wing and the door would not easily close. So off it came, again
clean up all the glue and try again. But this time after sticking
the seal in place at the top, I held it down with one hand and
stretched the seal and pushed it in place with the other hand. As
you can see, when done I wound up cutting off about a foot of
excess seal. But now the seal surface is slightly below the
surface of the rear wing and door closes easily. When you stretch
the rubber, the cross-section gets smaller and the seal then fits
perfectly.

The A post seal from the base of the windshield to the bottom of
door fit without any issues. But you do have to take the door off
as there is no way to get at this section with the door in place.
And the bottom seal placed in the channel on the sills fit fine.

After learing what to do on the passenger side, my driver’s side
install went smoothly.

http://www.jag-lovers.org/snaps/snap_view.php3?id=1398121462--
The original message included these comments:

Ken Hiebert (aka ‘‘6 speed’’) and I made arrangements to meet and
compare door seals provided by Martin MacGregor vs SNGB. This is a
shot of the A-post seal profiles at the bottom end, SNGB seal on
the left:
http://tinyurl.com/llqbxkv
A-post seal profiles at the top end, SNGB on the right:
http://tinyurl.com/km7kkub
and B-post profiles, SNGB on the right:
http://tinyurl.com/lov84zo
rubber stiffness is about the same but as seen in the photos the
SNGB seals are heavier. FWIW.


MAC -1
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In reply to a message from MAC -1 sent Tue 22 Apr 2014:

Thanks for that information, Mark. Checked my photos and
descriptions and they’re accurate. The grey seals (the grey colour
is rubber mold release agent, to be removed with solvent prior to
installation) are from SNGB. But it looks like the profile of the
seal you received from them is much closer to the original. I still
haven’t fitted my doors and am not inclined to use these seals.
I’ve sent an inquiry to Baines per Peter’s endorsement above but no
reply just yet.–
The original message included these comments:

Granted, my car is a coupe, but I’m confused by your photos and
have to wonder if you have mixed up the supplier names in your
pictures. I ordered my seals from Welsh(a complete kit)and one A
post seal from SNGB (to see if it was different). But they were
identical - even had the same hand written numbers on them, so they
were made by the same molder or extruder. As you can see in my
pictures, the Welsh and SNGB parts are black, while the other brand
in your photos is a light grey color.
Any way, I have to say this was not a fun job - in fact it is the
least favorite of all things I’ve ever had to do on my car. But


Nick Saltarelli '68 Cdn mkt E-type S1� OTS, '54 XK120SE OTS
Niagara, Ontario, Canada
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In reply to a message from N�ck sent Tue 22 Apr 2014:

Just heard back from C O H Baines and will order the seals from
them. For those interested, prices as follows:

JDS 11/12 A-post seals �10.51 each
JDS 13/14 B-post seals �5.39 each
JDS 15 Sill seals �5.95 each
Airsure to Canada �14.30

Once received I’ll post additional profile photos on this thread.–
Nick Saltarelli '68 Cdn mkt E-type S1� OTS, '54 XK120SE OTS
Niagara, Ontario, Canada
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Nick, did you mention to Baines about the problems with “hard” seals?On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 11:27 AM, Níck stellar-plain@sympatico.ca wrote:

In reply to a message from Níck sent Tue 22 Apr 2014:

Just heard back from C O H Baines and will order the seals from
them. For those interested, prices as follows:

JDS 11/12 A-post seals £10.51 each
JDS 13/14 B-post seals £5.39 each
JDS 15 Sill seals £5.95 each
Airsure to Canada £14.30

Once received I’ll post additional profile photos on this thread.


Nick Saltarelli '68 Cdn mkt E-type S1½ OTS, '54 XK120SE OTS
Niagara, Ontario, Canada
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Les…'68 S1.5 2+2


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In reply to a message from N�ck sent Tue 22 Apr 2014:

Nick,

Ok, thanks for checking. I guess since my car is a coupe, the
seals I got are different. Meaning that the seals I got from Welsh
and SNGB for the coupe look just like the one you are showing from
MacGregor.

I ran out of characters on my earlier post, so to finish:

These seals do in fact fit, but they are not just a simple �glue it
in and close the door� fit. You will have to use some tricks to
get them to work. But as I stated in my earlier post, the seals I
got from Welsh and SNGB were identical and they do work.

I do not recommend removing the mold release with a solvent. I did
not find one that worked well and I think it would be too easy to
damage the seal in the process if you do find solvent that works.
Instead, just use a fine to medium sandpaper to remove the mold
release and knock off the shine just on the surfaces of the seals
that will be coated with the contact cement. I found that the
seals really bonded in well by doing this. In fact, as hard as I
stretched the B post rubber, it did not move. You do have to put
the contact cement on both the car and the rubber and wait for the
tack time (about 15 minutes seemed to be right).

Even though it is not black, I preferred using the Weldwood contact
cement over the usually recommended 3M product. I found it easier
to apply (it had a small brush attached to the cap) and it seemed
to bond better.

Using masking tape as you can see in at least one of my pictures
sure saved a lot of clean up time. I got this suggestion from one
of our forum members and it was good one.

After everything I learned doing the passenger side, my driver side
went smoothly and much quicker. And I have had not whistling or
any evidence of air leaks. My doors will just about close by
themselves if I let them go from the full open position and open
back up easily. As a bonus, with the seals properly installed, I
was able to align the doors better than they were originally
fitted. I replaced all of the door seals, including the rubber
wiper on the top outside edge of the door. I have a complete set
of pictures and a whole lot more tips I could pass along. I offer
my service to anyone who is tackling this job. I think it would be
much easier to work off forum, so you can reach me though my e-mail
address at the top of this post or by phone - my cell is (216) 214-
9834.

Mark Castelletti
1967 4.2L E-Type Coupe
Casa Grande, AZ–
MAC -1
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In reply to a message from MAC -1 sent Tue 22 Apr 2014:

‘‘Nick, did you mention to Baines about the problems with ‘‘hard’’
seals?’’

No, did not, Les. Assuming what I’m reading in the archives answers
the concern - reported as much more pliant than some offerings.

Doubtful the seal profiles are substantially different between
coupe and roadster, Mark. I replaced the seals on my car a few
decades ago with NOS seals that were exactly like the ones I took
off. I destroyed the A-post seals removing them but this is a
comparison between the old RHS B-post seal and the replacement:


The original message included these comments:

Ok, thanks for checking. I guess since my car is a coupe, the
seals I got are different. Meaning that the seals I got from Welsh
and SNGB for the coupe look just like the one you are showing from
MacGregor.


Nick Saltarelli '68 Cdn mkt E-type S1� OTS, '54 XK120SE OTS
Niagara, Ontario, Canada
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MAC,
I see you mention the use of glue…on my car and I guess all
others, the seals fit into a captive channel. I’ve removed/replaced
the seals on my car more than once and never glued them in place. Am
I missing something?

Les.______________________________________________________
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MAC,
I noticed in your posting you “stretched” the seal while installing.
Did this help the installation a lot? Anyone else tried this?–
Les…'68 S1.5 2+2


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In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Tue 22 Apr 2014:

Les,

My car was completely original and based on the glue I had to
remove from the channels, the factory used a glue. I bought a
spray can of 3M Adhesive remover at AutoZone and it worked pretty
well. It softened the old glue and using some plastic body trim
removal tools that I bought at Harbor freight, I was able scrape it
out without too much damage to the paint. I don’t think Jaguar did
a great job preping these areas for paint, so a little paint
removal is to be expected. It was pretty obvious that two different
people did the original work. The passenger side had a lot more
glue used compared to the driver’s side.

The stretching idea was definitely needed on the B post. When I
fitted the B post seal without stretching, the part that would
contact the door was actually above the surface of the rear wing
making it almost impossible for the door to latch shut. Stretching
it reduce the cross-section enough that it then had its mating
surface just below the rear wing surface and the door could shut
easily. You would definitely have to used glue to make this work.–
The original message included these comments:

MAC,
I see you mention the use of glue…on my car and I guess all
others, the seals fit into a captive channel. I’ve removed/replaced
the seals on my car more than once and never glued them in place. Am
I missing something?
Les.


MAC -1
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In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Tue 22 Apr 2014:

Les,

I just noticed that you have a 2+2 and the seal arreangement is
vastly different from the coupe’s. I know this because I just
examined a friend’s 2+2 at car show. I don’t have any experience
installing the seals on 2+2, but I imagine the different design
accounts for your experience.

Sorry to have missed that in my earlier response.–
MAC -1
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In reply to a message from N�ck sent Tue 22 Apr 2014:

I suspect that the answer to some of the confusion about
‘‘vendor A’s seals are good, vendor B’s are bad’’, followed by
‘‘I found vendor B’s to be bad, and vendor A’s to be good’’,
is that several of the vendors have switched sources for
these seals over time - maybe as a direct result of the
comments from customers like us. I bought my seals from SNGB
about 3 years ago, and they fitted fine. When I compare what
they look like now with Nick’s, they appear to be slightly
different from the photos that Nick published of the seals
he got recently from SNGB. However, I can’t say whether this
is due to my seals having compressed after being fitted for
3 years, or they are different seals. They still look more
like Nick’s SNGB seals than the MacGregor seals he
photographed. This is one of the areas where going with a
supplier who manufactures their own parts may be the best
way of at least ensuring that you get the same part one week
as was supplied to someone else 6 months ago…

-David–
http://tinyurl.com/b4fdupp XK140MC OTS, S2 XKE OTS, XK8 OTS
Monterey CA, United States
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