Well sort of.
Do you think this looks good?
Now i have found out how to upload photo’s here is the picture that go with my text above
Then this picture demonstrates how a modern square tyres works on a modern car that adds adverse camber as the suspension is load up, to keep the foot print flat on the road
OK. I’m no artist, but i think it shows what i’m attempting to say
OK, so not really a Jaguar option, but a special request item.
Jerry
Yes, very nice and period looking. YMMV.
Jerry
evidently enough people like me do, their sales seem to be doing well…
do you want my old Michelins? free to a good home.
OK, I 'll give you that, but unfortunately it’s wrong. First, the E-Type suspension is an unequal arm design and does increase negative camber on the outside wheel, just as many modern cars do. On the other hand, many modern cars have strut suspension and very limited camber change, and the total camber change on modern cars is not that much more than on the E-Type. The camber change on the outside wheel is never enough to flatten the tread to the road, in fact it’s always more negative (as in the E-Type), so the outer wheel flails outward even more than the inboard ones, modern or E-Type. The design of some modern wide tyres includes differential sidewall stiffness to help compensate for camber issues. XVS and other tyres in the discussion have flat tread, not rounded (except for just the edges), it’s just that they are taller and narrower.
It just doesn’t work that way!
But I agree with your overall point, that narrow tyres (185R15s, for example) to handle better on E-Types (with 5" rims) than wider tyres. I believe it has to do with rim width, though, rather than suspension. 185R15 tyres on 5" rims are fine, though on the narrowest rims recommended for those tyres. If you put, say, 205R15 tyres on 5" rims, the parallelogram cross section the tyres assume makes lifting the inside tread much more likely and handling can be very flaky. On 6" rims (as on the steel wheels and S3 wires) those wider tyres work just fine. I autocross on modern 205/50R15 wide tyres on 6" rims, and believe me, the car handles really well, sticks really well, is predictable, despite the nature of the suspension.
Jerry
But that is consistent with the general response among this group. I used XVS for decades before going with Vredestein, so it was not just old vs new tires.
Jerry
Exactly right–just like sun roofs and or other period item they were special request --Jaguar did install Borani (sp) wheels as far back as XK140s but they were not Original. Original equipment is easy–if it is not in the SPC it is not original! The comments on the red line tires makes no sense. They do look great on some color cars but have the handling quality of a shopping cart wheel. The Vreds are an excellent compromise tire if you do not want to pony up for the Dunlops. A tire by the way designed for the E.
But to be honest I am not trying to sell tires —just 45+ years of E type experience!
For beholders and their eyes, here (if I did this correctly) are the Pirelli, Michelin and Vredestein tires being discussed:
And the Michelin
XWX
Which of these things is not like the other? I’ll say the Pirelli.
Jerry
Hi Jerry
I would suggest that your competition car has much stiffer suspension than was standard to keep the car flatter which helps make these wider tyres more progressive.
I must admit i didn’t realise that the e-type had unequal arm suspension. i must do more home work. It does level the playing feild a little However the rounded shoulders of period tyres will still lead to more progressive handling, because of how much the car rolls. This is partially why when they developed the series 2 in 1968 they did not fit low profile 205/70VR15 tyres, because they didn’t handle so well on the wider tyre. As a road car. (competition cars are different).
when you took off your XVS tyres they were old and you fitted new Vredesteins. New Rubber verses old. i think similar to the other comments on here.
This is the 185VR15 CA67 Cinturato that you could have had at the time. and i would suggest the best handling tyre for European style windy roads. again . not raceing. that is completely different.
I know they were wrong for Jags, my dad was a TR6 guy and liked them, so he put them on the Jag back in the 70’s. its all he would buy. I was just so used to looking at them I left them after I inherited the car. clearly too long. Live and learn I guess. They did look good tho, standing still.
You couldn’t have said it better, A shopping cart handles better than those tires did.
one more thing. I do appreciate the level of research and input by Dougal. and I respect his opinion, wether I agree or not. But a lot of the tires he mentions dont seem to be readily available in the USA. maybe I didnt look hard enough, but if I had to pay top dollar PLUS shipping from England that would really make them less appealing, no matter how good they are.
Bob my first E had the original Dunlops but when they were gone (about 10k miles) I had saved for a set of redlines as I thought they looked sooooooo good. Imagine my surprise when I headed into a very familiar curve at speed and watched my rear pass by!!! They were expensive then and the Dunlops were more but I took them back the same day—simply dangerous on an E unless you drive gently.
As to the “research” it is odd it ends up with what is for sale!
My car competes (US autocross) on completely stock suspension and the original springs that came with it from the factory. Stiffer shocks, though.
When they developed the Series 3, however, same suspension, they did fit the equivalent of 205/70R15. Worked fine!
I experienced XVS as new rubber several times while I used them, and I competed on them as I did later on the Vredesteins. Vredesteins handle better (just a little, true).
Yes, back in the day the Cinturato was a better handling tire than the Dunlop. Michelins were much better then because only they had steel belts. Now everyone has them. I did like Cinturatos.
Jerry
Like i said; stiffer.
who here would swap a series 3 for a series 1?
It is not just the looks. the series 1 is much nicer to drive in a sporty manner, because of the feel of it’s precise progressive handling. The V12 is a very different car. they did put 205/70VR15 tyres on (or ER/70 as it was called in the day) It was generally accepted in period that the XWX 205/70 VR 15 Tyres - Classic Michelin XWX was the best. However, because with the series 3 they wanted to fit a low profile tyre, the new trendy technology, they knew the handling would be heavier (also contributed to by the engine) however they also needed to counteract the tracking and nummer handling with power steering. So the V12 e type has a lot to offer, but it was never known for handling better than the series 1 or 2 e type. (but Phwar! what an engine)
Please also bare in mind that in the same year that Dunlop developed the ER/70VR15 SP Sport they fitted it to the XJ6. I think that is the same year Jaguar chose not to fit the ER/70 on the new series 2. Jaguar were famous for all the testing they did with Dunlop. (Many of you have probably talked to the test driver, I know i have). It wasn’t an accident that the series 2 still fitted 185V R15 tyres not 205.
Sorry to repeat it, but you took off old rubber and fitted new. that is not a comparison. I think we all know that we would rather fit a Cinturato or a Michelin and the Vredestein is chosen on price.
I like both XVS and Cinturato in different circumstances. I have XVS on my Silver Shadow, and they make a dramatic difference to it’s cruising ability. Here it is doing 110mph https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBSw_8zaBGU I did have XAS on a Daimler V8 they were excellent at again making it phenomenally better on dual carriage ways than it was on the Vredesteins the car came with.
I run Cinturato’ on my Elite, because it is such fun flinging it round country lanes and it benefits from the rounded shoulders and progressive handling because of it’s soft long travel suspension which makes it such a pleasure to thrash.
Bob
You can buy any of these tyres from my web site. follow this link Jaguar E Type Tyres - Jaguar XKE Tyre Recommendations you will also see the Tortoise and Hare; which is a brilliant bit of Italian promotional video by Pirelli, of course feature a large breasted lovely, spanking an E type around in conjunction with a Pirelli Truck driver covering miles while drinking red wine from a magnum.
I’m afraid we have just run out of the 185VR15 Cinturato CA67. However that is because the last of our stock is on it’s way to Lucas Tires in the States http://www.lucasclassictires.com/Pirelli-Cinturato_c54.htm We should be getting more stock next month. everything else is on the shelf.
We ship to the States. It takes maybe a week tops, often a lot less. And Often our shipping is free. just go through the buying process, and you’ll find out the price before we take your money.
Sorry about that boring Commercial bit. hopefully i can make up for it with some amusing films
Tyres Safety film https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxx1Zn-NaW8&index=5&list=PLORxf0xWk2NBYrKx1W4HE7_ZSWsg0qkkh
The Rubber News https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oqiP1lc61M&t=29s&index=4&list=PLORxf0xWk2NBYrKx1W4HE7_ZSWsg0qkkh
Vintage Top Gear https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jFqB4M8_1c&index=1&list=PLORxf0xWk2NBYrKx1W4HE7_ZSWsg0qkkh
Stiff shocks don’t affect body roll, which is what we are talking about.
I’d keep my S1, but not because of the tyres. I have seen well-prepared (stock) S3s run very well in slalom.
Sure, XVS or Cinturato on a Limo, I can see that (though perhaps a softer tire might give a quieter, nicer ride). On a US E-Type, no, Vredestein is what works best.
Watch the selling. We have had a very good member struck off for a time because of a much less obvious selling event. Not allowed.
Jerry
Yesterday got a new product catalog from Tire Rack, they now carry Vredstein tires.
They are described as a “summer tire” . Over the years have read many specs and warnings but nothing like this about cold exposure. In So.Cal were I now live cold weather is not a concern, but lived in Indiana for 18 years and would venture out in the very cold with the E. Would on occasion even drive in light snow. Drove to California through snow and ice in January years ago.
Glenn
70E
Dang, what do you know! At $180, not the cheapest price (compared to past purchases, but…) but really convenient. EuroTire quotes $177 as of today, so not that far off.
That cold weather warning, yeah, that’s completely new to me! Don’t roll them at all below 20F! No worries for me, but for some.
Jerry
[quote=“mouton, post:53, topic:122227”]
When they developed the Series 3, however, same suspension, they did fit the equivalent of 205/70R15. Worked fine![/quote]
Hi Jerry,
Well, mostly the same priciples, but not the same. Different track, also different front to rear, the front track is wider. Also the torsion bars are fitted differently on S3 and the front axle is also tilted to the front, not perfectly vertical as S1 & S2. And there is no rear anti-sway bar, I was surprised to find that out, as both the body and suspension on S3 do have the mounts for it, but no bar.
I did have a small discussion about this with Norman, as I was so surprised and he told me they had tested the V12 cars extensively and did the changes “because it was better that way”, less diving in the front under braking, less overall roll, less twitching in the back under hard acceleration and of course the same “low” profile (ER70) tires as the XJ6.
Cheers,
Pekka T. - 1S20183
Fin.
I think it is fair to say that these subtle differences between the set up, were done to make the car handle better with the wider tyres. The adjustment of the Caster angle of the front axle is what they do to diminish tracking of over wide tyres. The best example is if you look at a modern Mercedes with its wide tyres, if you look at them when they are parked up with full lock on then you will see that the front wheels are at an odd angle. this is caster, which does help the steering cope with wider squarer shouldered tyres, in some ways, but it does also make it heavier which on a modern car is all dealt with by todays modern incredible clever powersteering.
It is an interesting argument: Are modern tyres better than old fashioned tyres?
build quality is better than it was.
modern compounds are better than they were.
modern carcass design will allow a modern car to get more grip. but it will spoil the handling of a car that is developed with a wholey different tyre in mind.
So if you prefer the handling of the series 3 change the caster angle and add power steering at that point the car will be fine on 205/70VR15.
Can i request that next time anyone talks to Norman Dewis they ask him about Pirelli Cinturato.
Both the XVS and the Cinturato are all weather tyres…
As are the XWX and Cinturato CN12. (these are a steel http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/page/205-70-r-15-pirelli-cinturato-cn12.html ). and if you want to put a wider tyre on to fill the wheel arches but don’t want the handling spoiled too much thesse 2 would be the best.
Just reading what i have written, i think it might raise the point:-
“Well we should be running crossply tyres then”
And in a way they are kind of the most fun, because they are light and beautifully progressive. cars of the 60s, where crossply tyres were fitted, they accepted that you couldn’t have loads of ultimate grip so they concentrated on a car being progressive. so a period radial tyre that was developed to be progressive, compliments the whole set up. This is where the Cinturato comes into it’s own. A modern car is a wholey different beast, because they are built with the expectation that they are always going to have lots of ultimate grip are built accordingly. eeeuw! they even put the enginne in the wrong way round and drive the incorrect wheels. Yuk!
However, because today our roads tend to be dual carriage ways and motorways, the wandering that a crossply does at 70 mph can be a little wearing, so i tend to fit radials on cars of this period.
Hi Dougal,
Well I did see him two weeks ago at Stoneleigh, and had a short, friendly chat, but as I hadn’t seen that message as of then, I did not mention Pirelli Cinturatos. 
But I have them in 16" size on the MKV DHC currently, on loan form a fellow XK 140 enthusiast who went the CWW route in restoration and I have to admit, they are TONS better in all aspects than the ancient wide whitewall US cross-plys that I had before on that car, but as I don’t have much more miles on her with different tyres maybe I’ll get back once I have done the same roads with new repro Dunlop 6.70 x 16 RS5’s.
Cheers,
Pekka T. - 1S20183 (& 647194)
Fin.
