It’s time to re-assemble my 4.2L XK engine after being apart for a couple of
years. On reading the various references, I keep coming up against the rear
oil seal sizing issue. I’ve searched the archives, and while it’s been asked
for (several times), no one seems to have the special Churchill J17 tool
needed to do this (nor did I see any reference to dimensions of the tool
needed to fabricate one). I did note a couple of options such as replacing
the original rope with a modern equivalent, and also, just “rolling” it in
without using a sizing tool.
So, what’s the latest consensus: a) is the tool available for a reasonable
sum and where, b) does anyone know where to rent it, c) is anyone willing to
loan it out, d) does anyone know the correct dimensions so that one could be
fabricated, or e) is it really necessary?
Thanks and Happy New Year to all,
Jerry from Albuquerque
In a message dated 1/2/03 1:24:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, Gaknoro@aol.com
writes:
<< On reading the various references, I keep coming up against the rear
oil seal sizing issue. >>
Jerry,
I have a lot of concern about this too and would be interested in learning
what you do. When I rebuilt my 3.8, I went to a lot of effort and did exactly
as I was told by John Black when he was at CJ. It leaks! The hell of it is
that I just don’t know what I would do differently if I had the engine out
right now!
Good Luck,
Mike Moore
ps-I don’t know what the tool looks like, but I did have a mandrel made of
aluminum once for my TR3 (it leaked also!).
Jerry,
Having looked in the Haynes manual and also Practical classics E-
Type restoration guide, neither mention the crankshaft sizing tool.
I soaked my asbestos seal in oil for a couple of days before
fitting, as recommended. Fitted the seal, then using a brush handle
(cut the end off the kitchen brush) rolled it around the seal,
until it was well into the seal groove.
As long as you get reasonably free rotation of the crank it should
be OK.
The other route is to pay about $1300 to have a seal and crank
conversion carried out, to a standard oil seal. Out of my league!
I have seen the sizing tool and would think it would be made to the
same dimensions as the crank O/D. About 6’’ long, with a gentle
taper to allow entry of the tool into the seal housing.
Dave–
David Kerr
Pershore, United Kingdom
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
I’d call someone up that has one and see if you can send your carriers
in to get it installed properly. I tried using the rolling method and
found it impossible to get the seal all the way in that way. John at CJ
got it pressed in for me using the proper tool in a short period of time
with no cutting of the seal necessary. To call it a sizing tool is
something of a misnomer. The seal is already sized. It’s just a matter
of getting it fully and evenly installed, and this is much easier done
with a properly dimensioned mandrel. I suppose you could buy the stock
necessary to fabricate it, but it wouldn’t seem very worthwhile for just
one seal.
I should mention that others have reported success with the rolling
method. It just didn’t work well for me.
The sizing tool is 3.122 " dia. at the big end for the seal, and 2.984" at
the small end for centering on the rear journal. The big end is 0.003"
smaller dia. than the crank at the seal location. That only gives 0.0015"
for seal compression (assuming that concentricity was achieved), so if the
main bearings are loose at all, or if the crank is bent at all, the crank
will orbit and push the seal out radially, causing a definite leak since the
very hard rope has too little compliance to recover its shape. IMHO, the
rope design is poor at best, and its installation on the XK engine is even
less attractive. A more “flexible” or composite construction/spring-loaded
rope would help - any suggestions? This is one repair that you will want to
do right the first (and last) time.
A conversion to a 2-piece rubber lip seal can be done for a very reasonable
amount, if one is willing to do some homework and shopping. I converted one
of mine, but have not driven it yet. The only cost was to have the crank
machined down to fit the smaller seal, without removing the crank’s oil
slinger.
<< Jerry,
Having looked in the Haynes manual and also Practical classics E-
Type restoration guide, neither mention the crankshaft sizing tool.
I soaked my asbestos seal in oil for a couple of days before
fitting, as recommended. Fitted the seal, then using a brush handle
(cut the end off the kitchen brush) rolled it around the seal,
until it was well into the seal groove.
As long as you get reasonably free rotation of the crank it should
be OK.
The other route is to pay about $1300 to have a seal and crank
conversion carried out, to a standard oil seal. Out of my league!
I have seen the sizing tool and would think it would be made to the
same dimensions as the crank O/D. About 6’’ long, with a gentle
taper to allow entry of the tool into the seal housing.
oil seal sizing issue. I’ve searched the archives, and while it’s been
asked
for (several times), no one seems to have the special Churchill J17 tool
needed to do this (nor did I see any reference to dimensions of the tool
needed to fabricate one). I did note a couple of options such as
I have replaced the rear seal in my 4.2L XK engine and also some older chevy
engines. I didn’t need or use any special tool and suggest you won’t need
it either.
On my 4.2L I changed the seal without removing the crank.
The engine was upside down on an engine stand with the oil pan removed.
All Main bearing caps were removed and all rod bearing caps removed.
The rear of the crank was then lifted carefully about 1 inch or so. This
gave plenty of room to pull the old seal out and slip the new seal around
the crank. Then the seal was forced into the groove and the crankshaft put
back into position with all the bearing caps replaced and tightened down.
As others have said, it is critical to trim the two exposed ends of the seal
leaving 1/32 or 1/16 sticking out. Done properly and the top and bottom
halfs will butt together very tightly and won’t leak. I feel when leakage
at the seal occurs, it is most likely to occur at the butt ends of the seal
where it was trimmed too short.
None that I have installed have leaked. The last seals I put in were teflon
coated and didn’t require soaking overnight in oil.
Good luck!
Paul Ward
69 FHC__________________________________________________
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In reply to a message from Gaknoro@aol.com sent Thu 2 Jan 2003:
Hi Jerry!
I know sombody (Machine shop) that might fabricate that tool
for you here in Albuquerque.
Let me know if interested.
Walter–
Walter Schuster '78 XJ6 Ser.II, '69 E-Type 2+2
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
I have measured 0.014 inch backlash in my differential. Is this OK?
I don’t see a spec for it anywhere.
It looks difficult to change. I think I have to pull the two carrier
bearings and move shims from one side to the other to change the backlash,
although the Bentley book says to simply shim behind the output shaft
covers. That won’t work for my series 2 diff.
Paul Ward
69 FHC__________________________________________________
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In reply to a message from Paul Ward sent Sat 4 Jan 2003:
My Haynes manual states that the backlash is etched the drive gear,
min. .004’’. I didn’t change mine, but recorded it at .007’’. The diff is
fine and makes no noise. I did however change the carrier bearings
and rebuilt the output shaft assemblies with new bearings.
I also did a contact test with engineer’s blue and got a satisfactory
pattern. Maybe this would at least point out any problems, if you can
obtain a tube of blue -(machine shop?).–
Clive Wilkinson, '62 Coupe.
Georgetown, Canada
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Paul Ward sent Sat 4 Jan 2003:
My Haynes manual states that the backlash is etched the drive gear,
min. .004’'.
I also did a contact test with engineer’s blue and got a satisfactory
pattern.
Clive,
I have changed my gearset from 3.54 to 3.07. I looked very carefully but
there is no backlash number scribed on the gear.
Your 0.007 seems a lot better than my 0.014. I don’t know what excess
backlash would do but I am concerned with noise.
I blued the pinion and gear and the contact looks excellent. I am still
concerned with the 0.014 backlash. Maybe it is no problem and I should
leave it alone.
In reply to a message from Paul Ward sent Sat 4 Jan 2003:
Paul,
I’m no expert on diffs but I would think that the contact test would
take precedence. If the patch is not towards the heel, wouldn’t this
indicate that the backlash was ok? I think noise is more likely if the
engagement is too tight.
I’m actually surprised mine is so quiet because it has the original
1962 gears.–
Clive Wilkinson, '62 Coupe.
Georgetown, Canada
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
In reply to a message from Paul Ward sent Sat 4 Jan 2003:
Paul,
I’m no expert on diffs but I would think that the contact test would
take precedence. If the patch is not towards the heel, wouldn’t this
indicate that the backlash was ok?
Clive,
I think your quiet diff is at least partly due to the .007 backlash you
have. In other gear applications, excessive backlash will result in
vibration and noise. I’m not sure if the same is true in the Dana
application, but I don’t want to find out the hard way. It’s just too hard
to pull the rear end, take everything off and finally get inside the
differential. I’m hoping that once this unit is back under the car, it will
stay there for a few years.
Paul Ward
69 FHC— Clive clive.wilkinson@sympatico.ca wrote:
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In reply to a message from Paul Ward sent Sun 5 Jan 2003:
Typical backlash specs for various Dana 44 applications are .005
to .008. Excessive lash will give you noise. You can stretch it
to .010. Regardless of how wonderful a pattern may look you still
need to keep in spec. The bearings need to come off the diff.
Measure the stack height of each shim pack, plus the total of both
packs. Keep the total the same. But move more shim to the ring gear
side to get it tighter. Usually .008 will get you were you need to
be. The problem is you may not have a .008 shim in the pack to move
it over, thus requiring the purchase of some shims.
I’ve set the rear up in the Predator E-type like this for years and
they have stood the test of a many Daytona runs and enduros. I
forget how long ago I did Pascal’s but I think he’s given his a few
controlled beatings as well.
—Paul—
http://www.5speeds.com–
Paul Cangialosi
Boca Raton, FL, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
3 1/2 years ago, when I asked you and Thierry if there was anything I
should do about the new 5 speed and rebuilt diff, you guys said… “drive it
pedal to the metal…” i’ve been doing it ever since…
I was just going through the JEC’s site, and they have the special tool
for sizing the rear main seal. Looks like 60 GBP, part number JD 17B http://www.jec.org.uk/sptools.htm
Craig
64 OTS
Eric MaLossi wrote:>
I’d call someone up that has one and see if you can send your carriers
in to get it installed properly. I tried using the rolling method and
found it impossible to get the seal all the way in that way. John at CJ
got it pressed in for me using the proper tool in a short period of time
with no cutting of the seal necessary. To call it a sizing tool is
something of a misnomer. The seal is already sized. It’s just a matter
of getting it fully and evenly installed, and this is much easier done
with a properly dimensioned mandrel. I suppose you could buy the stock
necessary to fabricate it, but it wouldn’t seem very worthwhile for just
one seal.
I should mention that others have reported success with the rolling
method. It just didn’t work well for me.
I have the factory tool and sleeve for sizing the rear oil seal. Anyone
wishing to borrow it may do so for the cost of shipping. Please contact
me off list if you have an interest.
I also have the factory tool for setting the torsion bars on a SIII.
Same deal as above for those with a need.
In reply to a message from Gaknoro@AOL.COM sent Thu 2 Jan 2003:
Jerry you don’t need to use a sizing tool. All this does is save a
little time. It works the new seal into its container the correct
amount so that when you fit the crank and bearing caps the crank
can be rotated by hand ie not too loose and not too tight.
Without using the sizing tool all you do is place the half seals on
top of their respective grooves and work them in with something
like a round piece of wood dowel using a reverse rotation motion.
The object is to work them in so that you don’t have any bits
stocking out the ends (you must not cut anything off). You then
replace bearing caps and crank and try and rotate. If you haven’t
done the job correctly the crank may be impossible to move (ie the
seals are too tight) so you go thru the working in process again
with the dowel etc until the crank will can be moved by hand(not
too easily of course otherwise it might leak. I’ve rebuilt 6
engines this way and no probs.
Good luck
Peter–
The original message included these comments:
It’s time to re-assemble my 4.2L XK engine after being apart for a couple of
years. On reading the various references, I keep coming up against the rear
oil seal sizing issue. I’ve searched the archives, and while it’s been asked
for (several times), no one seems to have the special Churchill J17 tool
needed to do this (nor did I see any reference to dimensions of the tool
needed to fabricate one). I did note a couple of options such as replacing
the original rope with a modern equivalent, and also, just ‘‘rolling’’ it in
without using a sizing tool.
–
MARK IX, E type, SI XJ Manual, MARK II
newcastle new south wales, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
I have heard from very experienced, professional Jag mechanics (including one
who successfully raced an e-type) that if the rope seal is installed too
tight, it will “burn” (overheat) the crank, since the rubbing friction is
higher, and since the oil is prevented from lubricating the outboard part of
the seal in these cases. I have seen cranks where the seal area is blue from
formation of high temperature oxide, which may have been the result of an
overly tight seal during installation.
Does anyone know, or could you measure, the torque required to turn the crank
against the friction of the seal and bearings when the seal is turnable by
hand? I can imagine that the torque required for “turning by hand” could
vary as much as a factor of two or so.
Thanks,
Hank
'84 XJ6 SIII
In a message dated 1/5/03 6:21:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
p.dwyer7@bigpond.com.au writes:
<< Jerry you don’t need to use a sizing tool. All this does is save a
little time. It works the new seal into its container the correct
amount so that when you fit the crank and bearing caps the crank
can be rotated by hand ie not too loose and not too tight. >>===================================================
The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
FAQs: http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/index.html
Archives: http://www.jag-lovers.org/lists/search.html
In reply to a message from Jaghpo@AOL.COM sent Mon 6 Jan 2003:
Hank I don’t know of any torque figures but I just do it by feel
and a bit of common sense. It should turn without you grunting and
groaning - obviously if it is tight it will generate heat. I smear
a bit of graphite grease on the seal prior to tightening the caps
and seeing if it will move with firm but not undue force.
Peter–
The original message included these comments:
Peter and All,
I have heard from very experienced, professional Jag mechanics (including one
who successfully raced an e-type) that if the rope seal is installed too
tight, it will ‘‘burn’’ (overheat) the crank, since the rubbing friction is
higher, and since the oil is prevented from lubricating the outboard part of
the seal in these cases. I have seen cranks where the seal area is blue from
formation of high temperature oxide, which may have been the result of an
overly tight seal during installation.
Does anyone know, or could you measure, the torque required to turn the crank
against the friction of the seal and bearings when the seal is turnable by
hand? I can imagine that the torque required for ‘‘turning by hand’’ could
–
MARK IX, E type, SI XJ Manual, MARK II
newcastle new south wales, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
