[E-Type] Removing Oil Sump

All,

In the recent thread on replacing connecting rod bolts, there was some
disussion on removing the oil sump while the engine is in the car. I have a
late Series I 4.2 liter in my Series II '69 OTS and I would like to take the
sump off to replace the pan gasket and check the rear main seal. Is it
necessary to remove the crank damper like the manual says, or is lifting the
rear of the engine enough to provide clearance?

thanks, Ron '69 OTS

All,

In the recent thread on replacing connecting rod bolts, there was some
disussion on removing the oil sump while the engine is in the car. I have
a
late Series I 4.2 liter in my Series II '69 OTS and I would like to take
the
sump off to replace the pan gasket and check the rear main seal. Is it
necessary to remove the crank damper like the manual says, or is lifting
the----- Original Message -----
From: Bonijag@aol.com
To: e-type@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 1999 7:29 PM
Subject: [E-Type] Removing Oil Sump

rear of the engine enough to provide clearance?

thanks, Ron '69 OTS

Hi Ron
I was involved in that previous thread and I did agree at the time that it
could be done by raising the engine. You will find however that it is not an
easy job doing it that way and in my opinion removing the crank damper and
or the reaction plate is the safest and easiest way to go. This is just my
professional opinion and my way of trying to help Ron out. I have no wish to
get into this thread again.
We all work the way that suits us and our equipment.
Ok guys.!
Regards
John

John J. Black
@John_Black
http://www.classicjaguar.com----- Original Message -----
From: Bonijag@aol.com
To: e-type@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 1999 8:29 PM
Subject: [E-Type] Removing Oil Sump

All,

In the recent thread on replacing connecting rod bolts, there was some
disussion on removing the oil sump while the engine is in the car. I have
a
late Series I 4.2 liter in my Series II '69 OTS and I would like to take
the
sump off to replace the pan gasket and check the rear main seal. Is it
necessary to remove the crank damper like the manual says, or is lifting
the
rear of the engine enough to provide clearance?

thanks, Ron '69 OTS

Bonijag@aol.com wrote:

All,

In the recent thread on replacing connecting rod bolts, there was some
disussion on removing the oil sump while the engine is in the car. I have a
late Series I 4.2 liter in my Series II '69 OTS and I would like to take the
sump off to replace the pan gasket and check the rear main seal. Is it
necessary to remove the crank damper like the manual says, or is lifting the
rear of the engine enough to provide clearance?

thanks, Ron '69 OTS

hello Ron
I have a 4.2 '66 aut.and changed seals and gaskets over 2years ago, the reaction
plate
didn’t want to leave the car(just a centimeter to the back) and the damper also
had its one idea
of leaving the engine.Lifting the engine just did the trick but it wasn,t a
nice job.
I applied a bit of loctite sealant on gasket and seal and after 2years it’s
still dry.
Ron '66 2+2 zwaag/holland

I realize this is a very old post but I am about to pull a completely rebuilt engine out of my 63 e-type because it appears that the rear seal is leaking. It really is not something I want to do as the car is at the body shop ready to have the bonnet checked for fit before painting the whole car.
The engine was totally overhauled but was done 15 years ago and sat without running other than to check that it ran and there were no problems. Last year I began to work on all the unfinished bits to get everything functioning before taking the bonnet off and doing prep for paint, the front frame, IRS and suspension was all restored prior to putting the engine back in but the car sat for so long I wondered if the rear seal dried out. I have visually checked the cam oil tubes and covers for leaks which seems fine but I am going to pull the tubes off to check if perhaps I just can’t see something. The amount of oil that is on the floor after running it for 10 or so minutes seems way to much for any leaks from the top end.
If I am reading the previous comment correctly it does sound like I can pull the sump off and possibly replace the seal if there is no leak from the sump itself.
I dread putting the engine back in with new paint,as careful as I am I know accidents happen, thought the way the car was reassembled would be a good way to avoid having to have to put the engine in after paint, painted the firewall and frame and built a cradle for the frame to slide the engine in.
There are some unknowns and I am going to ask my brother who owned the car when the engine was rebuilt, hopefully he didn’t trim the rope seal.
Comment?

How bad is the leak and how long since it was rebuilt? Is your expectation zero drops, and if so for how long? Mine was rebuilt and I opted for an original rope seal because the new flap seals retrofits were still new and unproven. It was relatively leak free for maybe 8k miles. After that point it marks its territory. Remember it’s made of rope and is in two halves. It’s going to leak. If you can’t live with that, you need to pull it and get the crank out so it can be upgraded to the improved seal. It can certainly be done without messing up your paint. If it can be installed without damage it can be removed and installed again that way.

You can definitely get the sump off, and on a 3.8 you only have to remove the damper (maybe not even but it’s not worth trying that way), and not the reaction plate. But you can’t remove the entire rear main seal carrier with the engine in the car. That means you can’t even fix it as well as it was when last it was rebuilt. It will probably leak immediately or very shortly thereafter.

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As Erica alluded too, there is no way to change the rear main seal with the engine in the car, you can not get to the bolts holding the seal carrier in place without removing the flywheel.
Cheers,
LLynn

I would want to be positive it is the rear seal before pulling the engine. As you already said, it could be the cam oil tubes, it could be the oil pan gasket/seal. And maybe it is something else and running there. But you do not sound as if you are certain.
Tom

The leak is quit bad, I tried putting the car on ramps for a while to see if the oil would soak the seal in case it had dried out, also added some lucas leak additive but when I started it the leak was still bad. I asked my brother who owned the car before if he had any difficulty putting the seal in or if he had to trim it, he said he might have trimmed a tiny bit but can’t remember as it was over 15 years ago. If he did trim it then thats likely the problem.
I was trying to be positive about taking the engine out by convincing myself I could put a light weight flywheel on at least but I may try putting some baking soda on the back end of the engine then run it to see if there is a obvious trail of oil, am also considering dropping the sump just to see if change the gasket f that helps but the amount of oil seems to much for that. Had hoped the cam oil tubes were leaking but they don’t seem to be.
If dropping the gear box made it possible but I rather just take the engine out which is likely what I’ll end up doing. With the car being at the paint shop its not that convenient to work on, wanted to have the bonnet fitted with engine in because I did take it apart to bond all the panels and ducting again since the bonding was so dried out. The bonnet was always a very good fit but when the bonnet was put back on the left side was spread out a 1/2 inch, was easy to pushed in to close the latch and then fit fine but that bothered me so I was checking for why it flexed out, didn’t make sense that it would be different than before it came off. What I found was a 1 inch tear in the metal brace and I could see how that was flexing so I took it off and welded it but the bonding was so dry that I could basically slide a scraper under to lift. So, I disassembled it and took it down to the bare metal to prime and re-bond all the metal structure. I know the engine being out probably won’t effect the refitting to much but I figure since it is in now I rather fit it before pulling it out and will put the engine back when the final paint is being done to the bonnet.
Another problem I don’t want coming up in the future is oil on the clutch so I definitely don’t want a leaky rear seal.
Any comments about that rear seal upgrade? I had also read where a few people were not too happy with it and had leaks. I could go as far to take the crankshaft out to have it fitted, if its really worth the cost.
I had several old British cars with rope seals and never had a problem after rebuilding the engines but I was talking to Dan Mooney at Classic and he swears by the upgraded rear seal.

I think they’ve been using the upgrade at CJ for quite a while. Bet in mind that there have been different vendors making that upgrade kit over the years. I’d ask Dan which one they’re using now. I do think it’s worth the money and if mine ever comes out again I’d spring for it.

15 years is a lot to ask out of a rope seal, and I’d bet that’s your issue. Cheapest fix for a leaky rear is a large baker’s pan under the car. For the most part they only tend to leak a bit right after it’s shut down. It’s oil caught in the crank screw thread. That thread gets cut off when doing the upgrade so it’s not an issue any longer. I don’t think it tends to foul the clutch as it’s not coming out under pressure. It just dribbles.

You’re correct, the rope seal shouldn’t need to be trimmed. The problem people have if they don’t use the factory mandrill is that they can’t get the seal packed into the seal carrier fully. That leaves excess protruding.

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If in the next few days I find or am as certain as I can be that the leak is the rear seal I will put the light weight flywheel on and in that case may as well put the upgrade in. I don’t want to have to pull the engine for a long time once its finished. I’ve seen a couple versions as well, not sure which is the best, Terry’s jag has a video showing a 2 piece seal that you use silicon to seal the housing to the block and I don’t know if I like that. I’ll ask Dan but what one have you heard works best?

Have you considered pouring some dye in the oil and look for the leak with a UV light ?
I never tried it but others who have may chime in…

Marco

I’m afraid I haven’t heard enough about them to know at this point to know… Let us know which you end up going with.

Thanks, will do!.
I’ll also post when I find what the cause of the leak is.

Not everyone use the rear seal mandrill I NEVER have. The modern rope seals are generally rubbish quality. That’s why folks end up trimming them. They are way too long from the outset.
You can’ change the rope seal with crank in.
Spilt rear lip seal conversion is cheapest reliable option. Complete lip seal involves a new flywheel and grinding off the rear crank flange. Then drilling flywheel holes within the rear main bearing circumference.It works well at a cost of around £1,000.00 in the uk.

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Sorry CANT change the rope seal with crank in block - damn small key pad!

Neither have I, and Ive never had a leaky one.

Curious as to your technique as I suspect I will have to change one.

You don’t need any dye, just an old fashion “black light.” The oil looks as white as milk. Clean the area if the oil leak trail is not clear. Then run the engine to make a fresh trial. My leak right now is the gasket on the side of the pan. It will wait until I change the oil. Best of luck, Tom

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