[E-Type] S2 alternator relocation and aftermarket a/c compressor bracket

E-Type
1

I, too have been trying to figure this out. I feel the “L"bracket is
heavy and cumbersome - inelegant to say the least. Modern engineering
makes possible this experiment. I feel a small alternator placed
where the generator is on the S1 3.8
E-Type is workable even possibly using the same adjustment bracket,
but fashioning a new mounting bracket and using XJ6 SIII adjuster
units and mounts for the compressor, etc. The closest CHEAP solution
I have found is a Lucas '70s MGB alternator of about 65 amps or so.
It is JUST barely too large. The ideal alternator is about 3.5”
diameter (3.8 generator size IIRC) and the Lucas is 4" IIRC. Perhaps
with a slight amount of engine lifting by shimming the front mounts a
bit enough working clearance can be had. The bugbears here are the
(left hand drive) frame rails and the steering shaft, small though it
is. The alternator you refer to I did not know existed, and it is
expensive as you say. Someone makes a modern alternator in a
generator case so it fits nicely, but it, too is expensive ($350 or
so I think).

There are probably several Sanden AC compressors that would suffice
as it would consequently mount where the current Alternator is on my
66 S1 FHC where there seems to be plenty of room. The rest seems easy
by comparison, but I haven’t gotten much farther than to be stymied
by the Alternator conundrum. Several listers have added or upgraded
their AC, but I know of no one who has done what you and I propose.

I look forward to hearing from the rest of the list and from you and
in seeing the pictures of your progress and final results.

best regards, Brian

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2

In reply to a message from Brian Ternamian sent Mon 18 Sep 2006:

Brian,
Oh the benefits of this forum!
The Nippon Denso alternator #10211-7050 has a 98mm (less
than 4’’ ) case.I think it was fittted to the 2000 Suzuki
Swift/Geo Metro. I am unsure if it similar to the ‘race’
super mini alternators widely advertised on the internet but
it is certainly much cheaper at $99.It is rated at 55 amps
and the mounting lugs appear to be at 12 & 4 o’clock.The
Mitsubishi # A5TA0791 looks similar.
I’ll visit my local alternator repair place and beg to
rummage for an alternator that looks suitable or browse
their catalogs.
Next project will be a high torque mini starter motor
-NipponDenso seems to have that market too.
Tony–
The original message included these comments:

I, too have been trying to figure this out. I feel the ‘‘L’‘bracket is
heavy and cumbersome - inelegant to say the least. Modern engineering
makes possible this experiment. I feel a small alternator placed
where the generator is on the S1 3.8
E-Type is workable even possibly using the same adjustment bracket,
but fashioning a new mounting bracket and using XJ6 SIII adjuster
units and mounts for the compressor, etc. The closest CHEAP solution
I have found is a Lucas ‘70s MGB alternator of about 65 amps or so.
It is JUST barely too large. The ideal alternator is about 3.5’’
diameter (3.8 generator size IIRC) and the Lucas is 4’’ IIRC. Perhaps
with a slight amount of engine lifting by shimming the front mounts a

–
anthony davenport
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3

In reply to a message from Brian Ternamian sent Mon 18 Sep 2006:

Brian,
Here is the a/c compressor I was thinking of:
http://www.sanden.com/products/scroll.html
Tony–
The original message included these comments:

There are probably several Sanden AC compressors that would suffice
as it would consequently mount where the current Alternator is on my
66 S1 FHC where there seems to be plenty of room. The rest seems easy
by comparison, but I haven’t gotten much farther than to be stymied
by the Alternator conundrum. Several listers have added or upgraded
their AC, but I know of no one who has done what you and I propose.
I look forward to hearing from the rest of the list and from you and

–
anthony davenport
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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4

I realize the original question pertained to SII cars which already
had a bracket if it had AC. I thought I’d add my ruminations about my
project in a kind of fishing expedition. I do feel, though, that
Jaguar engineered their set-up that way because of the available AC
compressor and, at that, they used a “mini” version, I think. (Gad,
I have three or four of those old compressors.) I don’t think the “L”
bracket is un-Etype (obviously it is Etype). I think it is an
engineering expedient cobbled together to solve a problem with
existing parts. I also want to keep my header tank in the original
place. No matter, I think if they had the Nippondenso, etc. stuff
available to them then, as they do now, they would have (and indeed
do) used them instead of that bit of tortured iron-mongering.
Today’s Jaguar is quite an amalgamation of global parts and I think
Sir William would have had no compunction about using the stuff that
fit, especially if it was cheaper to boot. Additionally, putting AC
in an SI car was always dealer a install so I imagine it would be non-
kosher any way you slice the salami. I was never really concerned
with kosher in any aspect of life.

I will follow up on the other alternator recommendations from Tony
and Pete as best I can and look forward to more of his input and
perhaps can arrive at a solution soon. I have already fashioned a
mounting plate for an alternator with the same ‘clock’ in mind as the
original Lucas. When I do finally fit something I’ll take pictures
and post them. As for the compressor, about six months ago I bid on,
and won, a rebuilt Sanden S10 AC compressor for an ultra-obscenely
low price so I will be using that.

Too, I already have a SII evaporator and fan set-up which I have
altered to mount the fan in a non-intrusive way vis-a-vis the
interior room on the passenger footwell so I have been doing some
Jerry-rigging with an eye to bringing this all together some day.

Obviously, I am trying to do this on a shoestring so new and exotic
are probably out. There are some things I probably can’t get around,
but thems the breaks.

Oh well as Gautama Buddha said, such is the way of life. Best
regards, Brian

Mike Frank wrote: Now stop and think. If the issue is that the heavy,
cumbersome
bracket seems un-etype, how can the solution be a Nippondenso compact
alternator and a Sanden compressor, both bracketed to the side of the
motor? May as well drop in a Supra 3.0 straight six and dump that
cumbersome XK lump.

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5

The L bracket may not be so cobbled together. After all, there may be
room on the right side for an extra ancillary below the distributor.
The advantage of the L bracket is that the alternator is mounted with
the hot diodes facing into the natural airflow. The fan draws towards
the rear of the car, instead of fighting nature by pulling forwards.
I’ve often wondered whether the side mounted alternator isn’t
cooking, even with the weird heat shield.

Mike Frank

At 10:33 PM 9/17/2006, you wrote:

I think it is an
engineering expedient cobbled together to solve a problem with
existing parts. I also want to keep my header tank in the original
place.

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6

In reply to a message from Brian Ternamian sent Mon 18 Sep 2006:

Brian,
I agree with your concept and had already expresssed some
similar comments to others off-line.As an ex-British Leyland
Product Planner I can confirm you have correctly assesed the
philosophy!
$800 alternators, racing or otherwise are beyond my
budget.They are brilliant and fascinating but my challenge
is to find an inexpensive part(like the $120 NipponDenso
55amp) that most Forum members could justify buying and
finding a simple adaptation. To that extent we generate
value to many Forum members for years to come.

I like Pete’s adaptor plate idea with the compressor and
alternator bolted to it.This would reduce the leverage
issue. The tensioner could be the one found on the X306 XJR
or similar.It answers the original issue of the agricultural
ironmongery.
Don’t worry my purist friends, I’ll keep all the original
parts so it can easily be returned to stock by the
beneficiaries of my will in another 50+years!
Tony–
The original message included these comments:

place. No matter, I think if they had the Nippondenso, etc. stuff
available to them then, as they do now, they would have (and indeed
do) used them instead of that bit of tortured iron-mongering.
Today’s Jaguar is quite an amalgamation of global parts and I think
Sir William would have had no compunction about using the stuff that
fit, especially if it was cheaper to boot. Additionally, putting AC
in an SI car was always dealer a install so I imagine it would be non-
kosher any way you slice the salami. I was never really concerned
with kosher in any aspect of life.

–
anthony davenport
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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7

I looked at your site and read your AC write-up. Very good info. Thanks.

I did look at the right side but, alas, decided that I could not
practically see how I could mount either unit and still maintain some
modicum of accessibility. I have saved all the AC pictures I could
find or solicit that were anything close to my concept and came
across a pic of an alternator (IIRC) mounted on a horizontal plate
above the dizzy using the frame (?) (that’s what it looked like) as
part of its support. Below the distributor there doesn’t seem to be
as much room as on the left. And it would limit my ability to see the
timing pointer I added (from an SIII XJ6) to that side so I wouldn’t
have to crawl under the car or use my mirror. I like the concept of
blowing air on the diodes, but the rest is not aesthetically
interesting to me. I realize the AC compressor would have to be
mounted higher in the space alloted than the alternator is currently,
but I have measured carefully and used modeling clay to see the space
actually left (between the current Alt. and the bonnet underside)
when the bonnet is fastened and there seems to be more space that one
would originally think. I would imagine some kind of baffle or shield
would have to be made (perhaps for both the alt. and the AC
compressor), but I don’t have one now so it would actually wind up
being an improvement. I do have a shield from the rear of an Audi
5000 alt I could affix.

I, too, am a rough purist (not concourse finicky), though it may not
sound like it and nothing I have done or will do isn’t reversible.
Inasmuch as I can use Jaguar parts, I do (like the compromised and
wimpy evaporator unit). I keep all my removed parts and catalog them
as to their placement. I am merely trying to see what can be done
with modern units to make the cockpit of my FHC more civil in Texas
heat. It may come a cropper, but, if so, I hope I won’t have too much
money invested.

Thank you for your comments. All comments are worth considering as I
am not a trained engineer, but enjoy that sort of thing as a
fascinating hobby.

Best, Brian

Mike wrote: “… After all, there may be room on the right side for
an extra ancillary below the distributor. …”

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8

In reply to a message from Brian Ternamian sent Mon 18 Sep 2006:

Here is an update on the small,lightweight NipponDenso
alternator.Info courtesy of Steve at
www.socalaltandstart.com- no affiliation.
http://www.socalaltandstart.com/
It is 55 amps- so ample power for my project.
There are two somewhat similar Nippondenso alternators that
are often confused so I took photos of both alongside a
stock Lucas alternator for comparison. I shall post them
tomorrow.
The smallest one is distinguishable because it has only 3
terminals(the larger one has 4) in the socket at the back
of the alternator.These 3 terminals are a standard Toyota
set up so getting an extension cable should be easy?. The
big primary terminal is offset relative to the mounting ears
on the smaller alternator so it would not create a clearance
problem with the hood.
Both units are internaly cooled with a bi directional fan.
Steve had some questions about the feed to the tachometer on
the S2 XKE that I couldn’t answer but he seems to be
familiar with these issues on British cars and offered to
help us.
We aren’t the only group to have stumbled across this unit.
Apparently many other vintage car enthusiasts are using it
and the price of cores has soared.
I think they were origonaly fitted to Geo Metros in the lare
80’s and early 90’s. Suzuki Samuri’s and Chevy Sprints may
use the same one?
I’ll try to confirm the exact Nippondenso part # tomorrow
and post it.
The little ND unit is quite impressively light compared to
the Lucas a much better choice to have cantilevered off the
front of the engine IMHO.
Tony–
anthony davenport
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9

Geo Metro 89-93 Lester 13214 (photo 290-240) Nippondenso 100211-672
or 100216720. There are four connections on this alternator: a B+
post, and three disconnects on a three-way plug. One of the three is
unused, the one on the left is switched ignition , the other is for
the indicator lamp. Should be a simple set up. The alternator comes
with a 3-groove pulley, 15mm ID. You won’t have a tachometer issue,
because E-Type tachs don’t sense the alternator ripple the way some
modern tachs do.

There are several alternators in this series, with various output
ratings, mountings, tensioner clocking, pulley, and fan. For example,
13240 is 70A, with a one foot mount, and tensioner clocked to the
left. There’s even a CCW version for 88-90 Hondas. And a V-belt
pulley version for Isuzu (14857)

Mike Frank

At 11:35 PM 9/18/2006, you wrote:

There are two somewhat similar Nippondenso alternators that
are often confused so I took photos of both alongside a
stock Lucas alternator for comparison. I shall post them
tomorrow.

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10

In reply to a message from Michael Frank sent Tue 19 Sep 2006:

Mike,
Here is a link to an item similar to the one I identified
from Ebay(no affiliation)Just search for ‘‘Denso’’ in Ebay
motors- parts- charging&starting systems.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=009&item=190031827359&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
Thank you for the very useful research. I was told that some
of the Lester numbers I was using were wrong so I did not
post them.In addition I have a NipponDenso # of 100211-1630,
this also has a second number on the alternator of #887251

From your list of alternatives I see that some may be very
rare -like the 88-89 Honda.This may be the swap mentioned
by a lister who identified it as Honda Prelude?
It would be of greater value if we identify a more common
alternator?I wonder what size the 70 amp alternator you
mention is? The max amps number seems to be of great concern
to some of us. I am more concerned about the output at low
rpm because that is when the 45 amp units may be marginal.
I’ll try to find an amps/revs graph for the ND alternator
-it would be interesting to compare it with the existing
Lucas unit
Perhaps the most useful reference would be to a parts list
with diagrams showing clocking and dimensions. Can anyone on
the Forum suggest such a reference ?–
The original message included these comments:
Geo Metro 89-93 Lester 13214 (photo 290-240) Nippondenso 100211-672
or 100216720. There are four connections on this alternator: a B+
post, and three disconnects on a three-way plug. One of the three is
unused, the one on the left is switched ignition , the other is for
the indicator lamp. Should be a simple set up. The alternator comes
with a 3-groove pulley, 15mm ID. You won’t have a tachometer issue,
because E-Type tachs don’t sense the alternator ripple the way some
modern tachs do.
There are several alternators in this series, with various output
ratings, mountings, tensioner clocking, pulley, and fan. For example,
13240 is 70A, with a one foot mount, and tensioner clocked to the

–
anthony davenport
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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11

In reply to a message from anthony davenport sent Tue 19 Sep 2006:

Sorry that EBay link did not work -here is a second attempt
ALTERNATOR NIPPON-DENSO MINI ONE-WIRE HOOKUP
Item number: 190031827359

Buyer or seller of this item? Sign in for your status
Watch this item in My eBay Email to a friend–
anthony davenport
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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12

I was the lister who published the Prelude swap, and it was, indeed,
a Prelude swap, different alternator. Personally, I think the
larger-case Prelude alternator is a much better aesthetic match for
this application than the little alternator, and the XJ40 Bosch swap
is the beat-all alternative. Have you seen my faq?
http://www.coolcatcorp.com/faqs/LucasNippondenso.html

FWIW, the index of 100211 alternators is three pages long, probably
100 different applications. If you’re looking for something specific
as far as clocking, output, etc, it would be easier to give me a spec
than to try to identify alternators as the numbers come up. Common
applications include Toyota, Acura, Suzuki, Honda, in fact, all
Japanese manufacturers have used these at one time or another.

The reference you’re looking for is the Lester Picture Identification
Catalog, which you can purchase at their website:

http://www.lestercatalog.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=PIC-205

Nippondenso 100211-1630 is Lester 12189, Photo 290-198, 45A, 1 V
pulley. Has three connections, B+, swtched ignition and lamp. The
application is Kubota.

Mike Frank

At 12:09 PM 9/19/2006, you wrote:

Thank you for the very useful research. I was told that some
of the Lester numbers I was using were wrong so I did not
post them.In addition I have a NipponDenso # of 100211-1630,
this also has a second number on the alternator of #887251

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13

In reply to a message from Michael Frank sent Tue 19 Sep 2006:

Mike ,
Thanks for your suggestions.
I bought a ND alternator(Lester # 14870) that fits the
theory of my project and I’ll post the photos of it in
position on the engine - with the Lucas still in place for
comparison.
It is allegedly 55Amp but I have failed to find an amps vs
rpm chart to deternine output at low rpm.Anyone care to gues
how it might compare to the stock Lucas unit??
For fellow Forum members who want to try to locate this
alternator:
the prices vary wildly -I was quoted over $180.I bought one
for $75 plus $25 core.
The Lester # does not always help that much. The place I
bought mine produced many similar items which I’ll also post
photos of. Eventualy someone said in broken English - Oh,
you the one for Hot Rod guys? -that is the 14870. Apparently
it is so light they often cut off the rear foot mount and
just use the two at the front.That will reduce the size of
the bracket required -so I bought it!–
anthony davenport
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14

The small diameter units generally have poor output at low RPM, so it
should work just like the original. You keep worrying about weight:
it’s a non-issue. However, the strength of the bracket should take
account of the number of amps generated. The higher the output, the
greater the stress on the bracket.

Mike Frank

At 06:37 PM 9/19/2006, you wrote:

It is allegedly 55Amp but I have failed to find an amps vs
rpm chart to deternine output at low rpm.Anyone care to gues
how it might compare to the stock Lucas unit??
For fellow Forum members who want to try to locate this
alternator:

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15

In reply to a message from Michael Frank sent Wed 20 Sep 2006:

Mike,
If the little ND alternator produces as much as the much
larger and heavier Lucas alternator ,that will be great
because it is more than sufficient.
The lighter the alternator and the smaller/shorter it is the
smaller,shorter and lighter the bracket can be.That was one
of my original objectives.The new alternator weighs barely 6
lbs. The Lucas is almost double.
Photos- I am waiting for Jag-Lovers approval for the photos
I uploaded this evening. I’ll post them when I get approval.
Meanwhile I would be pleased to email the photos to any
member who needs them.
Next project is to make the bracket for both the new
alternator and the Sanden 508 a/c compressor.Any opinions if
that is the best compressor to use?
Tony–
The original message included these comments:

The small diameter units generally have poor output at low RPM, so it
should work just like the original. You keep worrying about weight:
it’s a non-issue. However, the strength of the bracket should take
account of the number of amps generated. The higher the output, the
greater the stress on the bracket.

–
anthony davenport
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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16

At 10:33 PM 9/19/2006, you wrote:

The lighter the alternator and the smaller/shorter it is the
smaller,shorter and lighter the bracket can be.That was one
of my original objectives.The new alternator weighs barely 6
lbs.

You aren’t listening to what I’m saying. The weight of the alternator
is a just part of the stress on the mount. If you’re really going to
engineer this, you would have to take into account the dynamic load.
The higher the current output, the higher the stress on the mount. In
any event, what’s the point in saving a few ounces in a driven car?
The most important thing is that the bracket not collapse while you’re driving.

Next project is to make the bracket for both the new
alternator and the Sanden 508 a/c compressor.Any opinions if
that is the best compressor to use?

The Sanden compressor has been used by several listers, you can
probably find the info you need in the archives. I think there’s
someone who sells a York/Sanden conversion bracket on E-Bay, which
might be a good starting point for your bracket.

Mike Frank

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17

In reply to a message from Michael Frank sent Wed 20 Sep 2006:

Mike: I’m not an engineer so I may not have the terms right, but I
think he is saying that because you essentially have the alternator
sitting out on the end of an arm, that lighter is preferable to
heavier since that weight is multiplied by the length of the arm
(moment, I think it is called) and less weight means less stress on
the arm (bracket). Certainly there are other factors, but reducing
the weight of the alternator couldn’t hurt.

And yes the conversion brackets are available. Search ‘‘york
sanden’’ or ‘york sanden bracket’’ on ebay. or google those phrases.
I’ve used the Sanden 508 and yes it is a good unit. One advantage
it has is it comes in a variety of confuigurations regarding where
the hoses enter and exit the compressor body. Thay makes a custom
installation much easier. Google Sanden 508 and you will find
sources with pictures showing all sorts of different belt and port
configurations.

Ebay has one now for about $46. Item number: 220029843197–
The original message included these comments:

The higher the current output, the higher the stress on the mount. In
any event, what’s the point in saving a few ounces in a driven car?
The Sanden compressor has been used by several listers, you can
probably find the info you need in the archives. I think there’s
someone who sells a York/Sanden conversion bracket on E-Bay, which

–
John Walker, 1969 2+2 - ‘Lola’
Hou, Tex, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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18

In reply to a message from John Walker sent Wed 20 Sep 2006:

John,
Thanks for your support.I have already procured a Sanden
compressor for a mockup of the bracket.
Here are some photos of the unit I bought yeasterday.I have
other photos that show a 70amp altrnative from a Toyota
Tercel. It is slightly larger than the one pictured but
still much smaller than the stock Lucas.

http://www.jag-lovers.org/v.htm?1158719420

Mike,
As part of my day job I design,prototype,source and produce
steel and aluminium brackets that hold heavy, motorised
shading devices high above peoples heads. So far nothing has
broken nor fallen.Thanks for your warnings.–
anthony davenport
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19

In reply to a message from Michael Frank sent Wed 20 Sep 2006:

Mike:
60 amps at 14.5 volts is only 870 watts. One horsepower is 746
watts, so the bracket it really fairly lightly loaded from that
aspect. The heaviest load is probably belt tension.–
The original message included these comments:

You aren’t listening to what I’m saying. The weight of the alternator
is a just part of the stress on the mount. If you’re really going to
engineer this, you would have to take into account the dynamic load.
The higher the current output, the higher the stress on the mount. In
any event, what’s the point in saving a few ounces in a driven car?
The most important thing is that the bracket not collapse while you’re driving.

–
Pete 70 XKE (193K) 88 XJ6 (233K) 88 XJ6 (217K) 60 Mini
Severna Park, Maryland, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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