[E-Type] School of Hard Knocks

I’m in the same leaky boat with Eric MaLossi (see “rant” thread),
though I’m not ready to give up quite yet.

My engine has been developing a knock. I didn’t really hear it until
my trip home from California last October, but I do recall Ray
mentioning that he heard “another knock” when listening to my
rattling Lucas alternator. I assume it has been there for a bit, but
became quite noticeable on the drive back up from the Bay Area.

Please note: This engine is basically “brand new”, having been
rebuilt less than 10,000 miles ago, by a vendor frequently referred
to as one of the “best” on this forum.

I didn’t really run the car much this past winter, except for when I
replaced the alternator, and did some basic troubleshooting. After
having ruled out the usual knocking suspects (tappet guides, valve
springs, etc) I asked some trusted advisors about possible sources of
the knock. Wrist pins came up more often than I wanted to hear, but
without actually listening in person, it was all conjecture. I wanted
to get the car to somebody with a lifetime’s experience with XK
engines to confirm. My main problem with that was being in a rural
area, at least a couple of hours between two major metro areas with
such mechanics.

After many attempts, I finally managed to align enough of my free
time, with a trailer, and hauled the 65E up to Chilliwack BC (east of
Vancouver) to Geoff Pickard of English Classic Cars have a listen.
Geoff came with several positive references from NW Washington E-type
owners, and I chatted with him last summer at List Member Bruce
MacCormack’s picnic.

http://chuck.forest.net/jag/Trip2ECC/

At my arrival Geoff started moving and talking at well over 3x my
normal speed, and performed a compression test, and a few other pokes
and prods under the cam cover in the time it would take me to drop a
wrench. I ran the car while he listened intently with a stethoscope
here and there on the head and block. We chatted for a while longer
about options and I headed home. He planned on “having a think” about
the issue and will call me later this week.

While there I saw Geoff’s immaculate S3, Bruce’s XK-150 project,
and a rather tired old RHD S1 2+2 that was in for a tune. The latter
I added to XKEdata.com’s database, as it wasn’t there before.

Stay tuned for the diagnosis.–
–chuck goolsbee
65ots, 1E10715
arlington, wa, usa

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In reply to a message from chuck goolsbee sent Wed 1 Jun 2005:

I know what you mean. After having a well known place with an
excellent reputation and racing history rebuild my engine and
transmission on my 61 OTS. I have had to pull the motor twice. Once
for the clutch, which was a performance clutch which they pushed to
go withtheir aluminum flywheel. The ears on the clutch didn’t
clear the inside of the bell housing. So some grinding was required
on the housing to get their recommended clutch to fit.

The second time was after the car was completely together. No third
or fourth gear on my rebuilt transmission. They put the syncronizer
on 180 degrees off. I won’t send a trans off for rebuild ever
again, pretty straight forward mechanically.

On the engine I had to adjust the timeing chain as it was so loose
it rattled like crazy. Now there is a slight rattle somewhere in
the engine for about ten seconds until oil pressure builds up then
it will go away. I 'll sort this out later. Next I’m going to check
all the valve clearances in a couple of days, as one measured .0025
on intake valve #2. I’m still trying to figure out how they got
through the dyno phase with the timining chain rattling so loud.
They obviously didn’t have the the clutch an bell housing on.

I rebuilt a motor on my 62 FHC and never had this much problem and
it is still going strong after 25k miles. I did send the head out
to someone on that car. The rest was done buy me with machining by
someone local.

I’m getting so use to taking the motor in and out it doesn’t bother
me any more. Just another 30 to 40 hours worth of work. I’ll stick
to fixing my own stuff after this. I may not know what I’m doing
but I generally get it right.–
Dennis Clack
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Hey Dennis,
If I remember correctly the only reason you sent it off for
rebuilding rather then doing it yourself was that your trusted
machine shop closed, bummer! I have the same problem as Holbrook
Engineering closed when “Uncle Carl” died and it’s hard to find a new
shop that you trust after dealing with one place for years. When you
get ready to set the cams let me know and I’ll give you a hand. I’ve
got several dozen shims around here and if we’re lucky maybe I have
something that you can use. Matt has a slew of new shims, real
Jaguar, and if he doesn’t have what you need perhaps he’ll let us use
his surface grinder to make your own. This off topic but I’m going to
fire up the old Dyna Jet probably next week so listen carefully to
the south as you may hear it!!!
Bob
889076
Plymouth, Mi.On Jun 1, 2005, at 6:11 AM, Dennis Clack wrote:

In reply to a message from chuck goolsbee sent Wed 1 Jun 2005:

I know what you mean. After having a well known place with an
excellent reputation and racing history rebuild my engine and
transmission on my 61 OTS. I have had to pull the motor twice. Once
for the clutch, which was a performance clutch which they pushed to
go withtheir aluminum flywheel. The ears on the clutch didn’t
clear the inside of the bell housing. So some grinding was required
on the housing to get their recommended clutch to fit.

The second time was after the car was completely together. No third
or fourth gear on my rebuilt transmission. They put the syncronizer
on 180 degrees off. I won’t send a trans off for rebuild ever
again, pretty straight forward mechanically.

On the engine I had to adjust the timeing chain as it was so loose
it rattled like crazy. Now there is a slight rattle somewhere in
the engine for about ten seconds until oil pressure builds up then
it will go away. I 'll sort this out later. Next I’m going to check
all the valve clearances in a couple of days, as one measured .0025
on intake valve #2. I’m still trying to figure out how they got
through the dyno phase with the timining chain rattling so loud.
They obviously didn’t have the the clutch an bell housing on.

I rebuilt a motor on my 62 FHC and never had this much problem and
it is still going strong after 25k miles. I did send the head out
to someone on that car. The rest was done buy me with machining by
someone local.

I’m getting so use to taking the motor in and out it doesn’t bother
me any more. Just another 30 to 40 hours worth of work. I’ll stick
to fixing my own stuff after this. I may not know what I’m doing
but I generally get it right.

Dennis Clack
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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In reply to a message from chuck goolsbee sent Wed 1 Jun 2005:

Chuck,
We are all crazy, let’s get past that. Eric’s right - the tie that
binds!
My car is a 69, with allegedly 32K original miles. I can’t verify
that as 100% fact. But I believe it’s possible after looking at all
the ‘‘clues’’.

Anyway, the previous owner did a half-a**ed engine rebuild. I had a
tappet/valve like ‘‘tap’’ or knock, that a complete head rebuild (to
Wiggy spec’s) DIDN’T fix. It was most noticeable when hot. I did
the bottom end this winter: (rods in wrong, four main caps
reversed). Wiggy urged to the small end bushings carefully. Low and
behold, one was worn. Hard to notice & easy to overlook. That rod’s
big end also had to be resized due to impact/elongation. Ring lands
were all opened to max spec.

All that in 32K miles, which leads me to believe it may never have
been right. The tap/knock’s gone now. If I had to guess its source
BEFORE teardown I’d have said it was a vale/tappet. FWIW.

Did you vendor replace & fit new small end bushes during rebuild?

Dave–
David Ahlers
Skaneateles, NY, United States
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In reply to a message from Robert Stevenson sent Wed 1 Jun 2005:

Yep Bob that is why I sent it off.

Hey I can measure two or three times with the best of them before
proceeding. On the 65 FHC I think I’m goign to redo the head
myself. I have a friend or two that still have machine shops. One
from the old Aerospace days has always built his own motors for
drag racing, plus motors for others, he still does protoype
machining for Aerospace stuff.

Then there is always the Saturday Goverment project in the Lab and
machine shop down stairs. Guess I can’t move until the head is
done.

On the 61 OTS I’ve got a voltage regulator problem. The Generator
is okay, putting out thirty amps and 18 volts. I’ve got 12 volts
and continuity through out the charging/ Ignition circuit until I
come to the regualor coil. I jumped the ignition circuit wires at
the cutout coil and current coil like the insturctions says and I
get 1.8 volts on one regualor and 1.4 volts on the other. I think
the manual says 14.7 volts but I’m going from memory.

I thought too much resistance in the circuit from the powder coated
regualtor holder. scrpped of powder coat to get a ground. Next I re-
routed the ground wires to a good known ground, just in case, one
never knows if you missed something. Both regulators are NOS from
the Late 60’s I think the spring steel that controls the points
opening and closing has taken a set because any adjusment on the
cam doesn’t work. I still get 1.8 or 1.4 volts depending on the
regualator.

I get 12.6 volts from the negative side (postive ground) of the
battery terminal to ground on the car so the car grounds are okay.

I’m going to borrow a regualator from Gary’s 150S as I know that was
working. Maybe I’ll get a Ford next. I hear they work everytime.
Haaaaa–
Dennis Clack
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David–assume they pulled the valves and checked them closely? I had a
tap-tap in mine a few years back and we pulled the head and found three
very slightly bent valves. Put new ones in and tap went completely away.

[Original Message]
From: David Ahlers david.ahlers@brp.com
To: e-type@jag-lovers.org
Date: 6/1/05 1:05:15 PM
Subject: Re: [E-Type] School of Hard Knocks

In reply to a message from chuck goolsbee sent Wed 1 Jun 2005:

Chuck,
We are all crazy, let’s get past that. Eric’s right - the tie that
binds!
My car is a 69, with allegedly 32K original miles. I can’t verify
that as 100% fact. But I believe it’s possible after looking at all
the ‘‘clues’’.

Anyway, the previous owner did a half-a**ed engine rebuild. I had a
tappet/valve like ‘‘tap’’ or knock, that a complete head rebuild (to
Wiggy spec’s) DIDN’T fix. It was most noticeable when hot. I did
the bottom end this winter: (rods in wrong, four main caps
reversed). Wiggy urged to the small end bushings carefully. Low and
behold, one was worn. Hard to notice & easy to overlook. That rod’s
big end also had to be resized due to impact/elongation. Ring lands
were all opened to max spec.

All that in 32K miles, which leads me to believe it may never have
been right. The tap/knock’s gone now. If I had to guess its source
BEFORE teardown I’d have said it was a vale/tappet. FWIW.

Did you vendor replace & fit new small end bushes during rebuild?

Dave

David Ahlers
Skaneateles, NY, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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In reply to a message from David Ahlers sent Wed 1 Jun 2005:

Going a little further on David’s post, A number of shade tree
engine rebuilders don’t replace the small end bushings on the rods.
This is a MUST on all Jag engines. The specs. are so tight that
measuring the old ones might fool you into believing them to be OK.
Check your bill (if you have one) for machine work and see if you
paid for them.

One check I do that sometimes works, is to run the engine till it
knocks. Pull spark plug wires off one at a time (then replace it)
to see if the knock goes away. The combustion puts a sudden
pressure on the piston and small end bearing, and any looseness
makes it rap. If one cyl. stops knocking with the wire removed and
starts again with the wire back on, then you might need small end
bushings.

Again, check with the builder to see if they were replaced. If they
were, they might have been reamed out too far. If memory serves, I
think a half a thousandth’s wear is too much. It’s way to little to
check by ‘‘feel’’.

With all that other half-a**ed work, i’d go for the bearings.

Also, is it less if the oil is cold or a heavier grade of oil.?

Phil.–
The original message included these comments:

Anyway, the previous owner did a half-a**ed engine rebuild. I had a
tappet/valve like ‘‘tap’’ or knock, that a complete head rebuild (to
Wiggy spec’s) DIDN’T fix. It was most noticeable when hot. I did


PhilW
Virginville, Pa., United States
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Hey Tom -

I must ask - what did you do to bend 3 valves? Were you a “bad boy” and
over-revved your engine? How high?

Cheers.

Bjarn

David–assume they pulled the valves and checked them closely? I had a
tap-tap in mine a few years back and we pulled the head and found three
very slightly bent valves. Put new ones in and tap went completely
away.

[Original Message]
From: David Ahlers david.ahlers@brp.com
To: e-type@jag-lovers.org
Date: 6/1/05 1:05:15 PM
Subject: Re: [E-Type] School of Hard Knocks

In reply to a message from chuck goolsbee sent Wed 1 Jun 2005:

Chuck,
We are all crazy, let’s get past that. Eric’s right - the tie that
binds!
My car is a 69, with allegedly 32K original miles. I can’t verify
that as 100% fact. But I believe it’s possible after looking at all
the ‘‘clues’’.

Anyway, the previous owner did a half-a**ed engine rebuild. I had a
tappet/valve like ‘‘tap’’ or knock, that a complete head rebuild (to
Wiggy spec’s) DIDN’T fix. It was most noticeable when hot. I did
the bottom end this winter: (rods in wrong, four main caps
reversed). Wiggy urged to the small end bushings carefully. Low and
behold, one was worn. Hard to notice & easy to overlook. That rod’s
big end also had to be resized due to impact/elongation. Ring lands
were all opened to max spec.

All that in 32K miles, which leads me to believe it may never have
been right. The tap/knock’s gone now. If I had to guess its source
BEFORE teardown I’d have said it was a vale/tappet. FWIW.

Did you vendor replace & fit new small end bushes during rebuild?

Dave

David Ahlers
Skaneateles, NY, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.phpSubject: Re: [E-Type] School of Hard Knocks

Great question-----it must have been when I shifted into 3rd at 5500
rpm’s:):):slight_smile:

You know—I don’t know. It could have been when a schlock (is that a
word?) pulled the head to “fix” the tapping. And, it was still tapping
after he put it back together. He had used up his knowledge—and me my
patience with him----so, off I went to THE professional here in Pittsburgh
and it was he who found and corrected the problem. Wish I had known him
sooner.

BTW, the first guy restores and rebuilds antique aircraft engines for a
living and they say he is good at that-------well----he should have stuck
to that job!

[Original Message]
From: Paul Bjarnason bearson@crosslink.net
To: e-type@jag-lovers.org
Date: 6/1/05 11:26:12 PM
Subject: RE: [E-Type] School of Hard Knocks

Hey Tom -

I must ask - what did you do to bend 3 valves? Were you a “bad boy” and
over-revved your engine? How high?

Cheers.

Bjarn

Subject: Re: [E-Type] School of Hard Knocks

David–assume they pulled the valves and checked them closely? I had a
tap-tap in mine a few years back and we pulled the head and found three
very slightly bent valves. Put new ones in and tap went completely
away.

[Original Message]
From: David Ahlers david.ahlers@brp.com
To: e-type@jag-lovers.org
Date: 6/1/05 1:05:15 PM
Subject: Re: [E-Type] School of Hard Knocks

In reply to a message from chuck goolsbee sent Wed 1 Jun 2005:

Chuck,
We are all crazy, let’s get past that. Eric’s right - the tie that
binds!
My car is a 69, with allegedly 32K original miles. I can’t verify
that as 100% fact. But I believe it’s possible after looking at all
the ‘‘clues’’.

Anyway, the previous owner did a half-a**ed engine rebuild. I had a
tappet/valve like ‘‘tap’’ or knock, that a complete head rebuild (to
Wiggy spec’s) DIDN’T fix. It was most noticeable when hot. I did
the bottom end this winter: (rods in wrong, four main caps
reversed). Wiggy urged to the small end bushings carefully. Low and
behold, one was worn. Hard to notice & easy to overlook. That rod’s
big end also had to be resized due to impact/elongation. Ring lands
were all opened to max spec.

All that in 32K miles, which leads me to believe it may never have
been right. The tap/knock’s gone now. If I had to guess its source
BEFORE teardown I’d have said it was a vale/tappet. FWIW.

Did you vendor replace & fit new small end bushes during rebuild?

Dave

David Ahlers
Skaneateles, NY, United States
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