[E-Type] [Way OT] I'm Buying A New Toy

To celebrate my impending unemployment (well, until Jan. 2, 2008
anyway), I’m buying myself a really nice present:
http://tinyurl.com/262627
First project will be to do a complete 3-axis CNC conversion on
it. Once that’s done, I’ll be able to make almost anything!–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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Ray,

That is an impressive piece of machinery for a home shop. Are you bringing
in 400 amp 3 phase power to get all your toys to work? :<)

I noticed the supplier is quoting free freight. Do you think they will
stand behind that promise after they find out where you live?

Congratulations on losing your job!!

Allan Jones
'69ots-----Original Message-----
From: owner-e-type@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-e-type@jag-lovers.org] On
Behalf Of Ray Livingston
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 8:29 PM
To: e-type@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [E-Type] [Way OT] I’m Buying A New Toy…

To celebrate my impending unemployment (well, until Jan. 2, 2008
anyway), I’m buying myself a really nice present:
http://tinyurl.com/262627
First project will be to do a complete 3-axis CNC conversion on
it. Once that’s done, I’ll be able to make almost anything!

Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from Allan Jones sent Tue 13 Nov 2007:

Allan,
It’s only 3HP, though it is 3-phase, so I’m also buying a VFD.
The free freight is for real, I checked it with them today!–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Tue 13 Nov 2007:

Hi Ray, If you are planning on converting this mill to cnc it will
have more than one motor. times may have changed since I did this
in the late eighties but a single faze converter might not work. I
had a guy rewire an old 10hp motor to single faze 220 and wired the
third leg into a generator. you run the third leg into a box with
single faze 220 and you have continuos three faze. My application
was an old cincinatti hydrotel so the power then went into a 15kva
transformer and then I had 440 three faze from a residential power
source. Again things might have changed since I did this.

good luck
Dan myers–
The original message included these comments:

It's only 3HP, though it is 3-phase, so I'm also buying a VFD.  


trdanny
white lake, mi, United States
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In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Tue 13 Nov 2007:

Hi Ray, There is somthing else you might want to consider. This
machine is a nice little hand mill, but I don’t think it has ball
screws for movement. Most NC applications use ball screw and servo
motors. Ball screws allow zero slack in the table and ram screws
for when you revese direction. I’m sure you remember running an old
bridgeport and when you change direction theres a half a turn of
slop in the handle, ball screws prevent that. If I were looking to
start doing some NC programming at home, I would find an old CNC
mill at an auction. It would be a lot cheaper to update an old
control than to retrofit a hand milling machine.

again just my 2 cents
Dan Myers–
The original message included these comments:

anyway), I’m buying myself a really nice present:
http://tinyurl.com/262627
First project will be to do a complete 3-axis CNC conversion on
it. Once that’s done, I’ll be able to make almost anything!


trdanny
white lake, mi, United States
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In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Tue 13 Nov 2007:

Don’t know too much about US electrics but I know about converting
my old 3-Phase Harrison to single phase.

I think it started out at 3hp 3Ph and I slotted in a 5 horse single
phase motor. That was the max we can run off a domestic 13A supply
although I did run it off a 30A spur the last two workshops I used
it in. Don’t remember the conversion factor but 5hp single phase is
not as strong as the 3-phase original spec. But I figured that for
home use I was not interested in taking heavy cuts to save
time/money, like you would in a commerical context.

Anyway, the thing never missed a beat at that lower rating. About
the only time I did stall it was machining my XK flywheel as it
happens, which was probably the biggest OD piece I ever did on it -
think there’s a pic in the album of that job. Even then, it was
fine, but I was getting so bored of the time it was taking to
remove 6-7lbs of steel that I tried heavier and heavier cuts, until
when it reached the periphery on power cross feed it stalled. Even
then, the single phase motor was still running IIRC - it was the
twin belts that slipped.

On the other hand, if I’d had multiple motors like your mill
probably has (and they’d been brand new instead of 25 years old)
I’d probably have tried what you’re going to try, though the
efficiency of the phase converters is not great, AFAIK?

So if we see major power outages in CA like a couple of years ago,
we’ll know you are making a batch of EDIS pick-up brackets out of
titanium billet :-)–
66 2+2, 73 OTS, 76 DD6 Coup�, 85 XJS 5-spd conver, 93 XJ12
Cambridge, United Kingdom
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Ray,
Since you’re going to be unemployed and will have this fancy new toy
:slight_smile: and were discussing hammering knock offs, how difficult would it
be to make a tool to get those suckers off w/o banging? I’m thinking
of a cylinder large enough in diameter to go around the KO with a
couple of slots in it to catch the KO ears, then a hole in the other
end large enough to put a big bar through, 1/2" piece of pipe or
something. The slots could be designed to hook behind the KO ears so
it wouldn’t slide off when torque was applied. I’m no engineer (or
machinist) but after all these years we’re still banging these things
on and off. It seems like there ought to be a better way. A couple
of years ago someone was selling a tool with a large lever on it but
it seems that there wasn’t much enthusiasm for this thing and it was
also kinda large to carry around in the boot.
pauls 67ots

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In reply to a message from paul spurlock sent Tue 13 Nov 2007:

Very nice looking machine Ray, but can it cook? More importantly
can it decant a nice bottle of Bordeaux?–
Tony Pohl '70 Series 2 OTS
San Francisco, United States
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In reply to a message from trdanny sent Tue 13 Nov 2007:

Dan,
Modern VFDs are wonderful things. For $300, I get a 3HP
sensorless vector drive VFD which converts 220V single-phase to 220
or 440V three-phase, and gives me variable speed up to about 150%
of rated motor RPM. No motors, transformers, or moving parts of
any kind. Amazing stuff!–
The original message included these comments:

Hi Ray, If you are planning on converting this mill to cnc it will
have more than one motor. times may have changed since I did this
in the late eighties but a single faze converter might not work. I
had a guy rewire an old 10hp motor to single faze 220 and wired the
third leg into a generator. you run the third leg into a box with
single faze 220 and you have continuos three faze. My application
Dan myers


Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from trdanny sent Tue 13 Nov 2007:

Dan,
There is a common, and persistent, misconception that ballscrews
are hideously expensive and difficult to fit. Not so, provided
you’re willing to accept rolled, rather than ground, screws. For
all but the most demanding applications, rolled screws are just
fine, and hardly any more expensive than decent Acme screws. I’ll
be using 1’’ ballscrews, and pre-loaded double nuts. The screw
stock is about $2/inch, the nuts about $45 each. I’ll be making
the pre-loaded double nut assemblies myself. I’ve done all this
(except for the double-nuts) before on the mini-mill I currently
have, and there was nothing to it. The total cost for all the
hardware necessary for the ballscrew conversion on this machine
will be under $500.
Around here, even broken CNC mills command much higher prices than
manual mills, and are more likely to have been heavily used, and in
need of repair.–
The original message included these comments:

Hi Ray, There is somthing else you might want to consider. This
machine is a nice little hand mill, but I don’t think it has ball
screws for movement. Most NC applications use ball screw and servo
motors. Ball screws allow zero slack in the table and ram screws
Dan Myers


Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from PeterCrespin sent Tue 13 Nov 2007:

Petey,
The efficiency of the old rotsary phase converters was not
great, since you have inefficiencies both going into the motor, and
coming out of the generator. A VFD is a totally electronic device,
and not only far more efficient, but also gives you variable speed
down to a small fraction of the motor base speed, and about 50%
above its base speed. Most will accept either single-phase or
three phase input, and generate 3-phase output at one of several
voltage levels. So, I can choose to run the motor at 200V, or
440V, from either a 110V or 220V single-phase or three-phase supply.
AFAIK, there is only the one motor on this machine. The only power
feed is the quill feed, which is geared off the spindle. The three
axis drives will all be closed-loop DC servo motors, separately
powered from the 110V line.–
The original message included these comments:

Don’t know too much about US electrics but I know about converting
my old 3-Phase Harrison to single phase.
I’d probably have tried what you’re going to try, though the
efficiency of the phase converters is not great, AFAIK?

66 2+2, 73 OTS, 76 DD6 Coup�, 85 XJS 5-spd conver, 93 XJ12


Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from paul spurlock sent Tue 13 Nov 2007:

Paul,
I recall someone here made exactly what you’re talking about
several years ago. It was a large diameter hollow cylinder,
notched at one end to grab onto the ears of the knockoff. The
outer end rested on a jackstand, and it had a large hold through
the outer end you could slip a length of pipe through. Not even
remotely practical for on-the-road use. That, I think is the
problem with this approach: if it won’t fit in the boot, what good
is it? You’re most likely to need it if you get a flat on the road.–
The original message included these comments:

Ray,
Since you’re going to be unemployed and will have this fancy new toy
:slight_smile: and were discussing hammering knock offs, how difficult would it
be to make a tool to get those suckers off w/o banging? I’m thinking
pauls 67ots


Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Tue 13 Nov 2007:

Hmmm, sounds tasty :slight_smile:

First thing I did in Dorothy’s house in NC was wire up a 220V
English double socket from two of her 110V feeds. Let me use some
of my Enlgish tools and IT stuff without adapters.

When we move over I think I will have duplicated electrical
systems, US and UK, in the workshop, albeit I’ll settle for 220V
instead of 240V. I think there are times when having double the
voltage is useful for workshop stuff.–
The original message included these comments:

coming out of the generator. A VFD is a totally electronic device,
and not only far more efficient, but also gives you variable speed
down to a small fraction of the motor base speed, and about 50%
above its base speed. Most will accept either single-phase or
three phase input, and generate 3-phase output at one of several
voltage levels. So, I can choose to run the motor at 200V, or
440V, from either a 110V or 220V single-phase or three-phase supply.


66 2+2, 73 OTS, 76 DD6 Coup�, 85 XJS 5-spd conver, 93 XJ12
Cambridge, United Kingdom
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Ray,
Don’t recall seeing that thing, sounds like a good idea tho. Was
thinking more about a tool for the garage than the road. I’ve been
lucky, in 30 years only one flat on the road but wheels have been on
and off many times. Of course now I’m going to have a string of
flats! After that discussion about run flat tires and me commenting
I’d stay away from them I had a flat on the daily driver. New tires
next day, another flat the next day on a new tire which was promptly
replaced. That was 3 weeks ago so far so good. Then significant
other had a flat a week later, first flat she’s had in well over 100k
miles.
pauls 67ots

In reply to a message from paul spurlock sent Tue 13 Nov 2007:

Paul,
I recall someone here made exactly what you’re talking about
several years ago. It was a large diameter hollow cylinder,
notched at one end to grab onto the ears of the knockoff. The
outer end rested on a jackstand, and it had a large hold through
the outer end you could slip a length of pipe through. Not even
remotely practical for on-the-road use. That, I think is the
problem with this approach: if it won’t fit in the boot, what good
is it? You’re most likely to need it if you get a flat on the road.
<<<<<<<<<<

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Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.phpFrom: “Ray Livingston” jagboy@pacbell.net
Subject: Re: [E-Type] [Way OT] I’m Buying A New Toy…

In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Tue 13 Nov 2007:

WOW !! you have done your home work. I didn’t know that some of
this stuff was so available. It is sad however, that here in
Michigan you can still buy used machinery by the pound (scrap
price). There is an old Desoto plant in detroit called Sara Lil’s
that has acre’s of old machines.

Dan Myers–
The original message included these comments:

There is a common, and persistent, misconception that ballscrews
are hideously expensive and difficult to fit. Not so, provided
you’re willing to accept rolled, rather than ground, screws. For
all but the most demanding applications, rolled screws are just
fine, and hardly any more expensive than decent Acme screws. I’ll
be using 1’’ ballscrews, and pre-loaded double nuts. The screw
stock is about $2/inch, the nuts about $45 each. I’ll be making
the pre-loaded double nut assemblies myself. I’ve done all this
(except for the double-nuts) before on the mini-mill I currently
have, and there was nothing to it. The total cost for all the
hardware necessary for the ballscrew conversion on this machine


trdanny
white lake, mi, United States
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In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Tue 13 Nov 2007:

The following is my opinion and doesn’t count for a whole lot.

Unless you have a specific application (small runs of production
parts) in mind you will be wasting your time. If you have a
specific application in mind, buy only as much machine you need and
check out what eBay has to offer as used equipment. Generally,
you’ll get where you want to go at much less than half your final
cost of this conversion. The biggest hurdle will not be converting
this machine to CNC, but drawing your creation in CAD and preparing
to machine it. It all can be done, but it’s definitely an acquired
skill.

If you’re looking to learn CNC and make some small parts too, the
cheapest way to go is with a desktop CNC mill like www.maxnc.com or
www.sherline.com or possibly a hybrid setup from
www.discountcampus.com–
Uncle John L with a '72 OTS
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In reply to a message from Uncle John L sent Tue 13 Nov 2007:

John,

I've had a table-top CNC machine for about 4 years now, and I 

long ago outgrew it. I’ve been designing with CAD and CNC for
years now, with few problems. But, every project pushes the limits
of the machine, and I’m tired of compromising the design based on
the capacity of the machine it has to be made on. This new
machine, I won’t outgrow. And even if I did, the cost of going to
the next step up in capacity is so far out of the question, it’s
not even worth considering.–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Tue 13 Nov 2007:

Ray,
That would be me that made and posted pictures of the Knock-off
tool I made.
At that time your comment on it was ‘’’‘knock-off wrench from
hell’’ ( cut and pasted from your origional post )
Now the comment is ‘‘Not even remotely practical for on-the-road
use.’’
Pretty Bold statements from someone who has not seen, used or
stored it in his car for the last 4 or so years ( under the spare
wheel along with the telescopic handle )
I must admit it is now on the shelf having been replaced with a
similar tool because of a change to 2 eared Knock-offs.
I would also have to say the other dozen or so people who I have
made them for ( both types ) have only good things to say about
them ( one elderly gent from Boston Emailed me after using one to
change a wheel on the interstate and informed me he would have had
no chance if the lead mallet was his only option )
You obviously have a number of tallents in various areas and
your sheer number of posts on this forum may suggest you do not
spend enough time reading and understanding fully some of the
topics you reply to.
It matters not to me but, sometimes a better mousetrap is
developed and it would be a shame if those less knowlegable were to
be put off using it because of a hurried evaluation by someone
who’s oppinion they have come to trust.
All are, of course, entitled to their own opinions, however, a
mallet ( of any material ) shall never touch my Knock-offs (or
fender!)
Peter Conway–
The original message included these comments:

In reply to a message from paul spurlock sent Tue 13 Nov 2007:
Paul,
I recall someone here made exactly what you’re talking about
several years ago. It was a large diameter hollow cylinder,
notched at one end to grab onto the ears of the knockoff. The
outer end rested on a jackstand, and it had a large hold through
the outer end you could slip a length of pipe through. Not even
remotely practical for on-the-road use. That, I think is the
problem with this approach: if it won’t fit in the boot, what good
is it? You’re most likely to need it if you get a flat on the road.


Peter Conway 69 2+2
Georgetown Ontario, Canada
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In reply to a message from Peter Conway sent Wed 14 Nov 2007:

Peter,
I did not mean to impugn the effort or design. Apologies if I
did. My recollection (obviously mistaken) was that your tool was
quite large, plus required the jackstand to really get the full
effect. I never questioned its effectiveness, not then, not now.
I do, however, still question the need for a ‘‘better’’ tool. I’ve
always done knock-offs with a lead mallet, and it’s never marred
the knock-offs one bit. Nor have I ever had a knock-off that was
particularly difficult to remove with a lead mallet. I think that
is more indicative of poor maintenance than some inherent flaw in
the lead hammer method. So, I have a hard time accepting the
argument that using a lead mallet will damage the knock-off, and
therfore should be avoided. I’ve never seen it happen unless the
lead was contaminated with some grit, which is, again, a
maintenance issue.
I’m sure your tool is wonderful, and if you’re happy with it, who
cares what I think?–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Wed 14 Nov 2007:

Ray,
Apology accepted.

And yes, my tool has been wonderful,years of service, convenient
and always ready to please at a moments notice!

Peter Conway–
The original message included these comments:

Peter,
I did not mean to impugn the effort or design. Apologies if I
did. My recollection (obviously mistaken) was that your tool was
quite large, plus required the jackstand to really get the full
I’m sure your tool is wonderful, and if you’re happy with it, who

Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States


Peter Conway 69 2+2
Georgetown Ontario, Canada
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