[E-Type] Webers?

I have searched the archives for the correct jetting etc. to
suit a stock 4.2 XK fitted with Webers.

I came across Christian Hueber’s suggestions albeit
incomplete on this subject.
Christian was unsure, from recall the Air correction jet and
the Pump jet numbers.He provided all the others if one
wishes to view them.
Can anyone provide the missing numbers for me?

My 45s which only did circuit test miles from new are
presently tuned to suit a 305 BHP XK.
May do a swap deal on my present jets etc. with a U.K. based
member or will sell them.
If interested drop me a PM.
Eugene.
A.K.A. old jag man.–
old jag man
ARMAGH, United Kingdom
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In reply to a message from old jag man sent Mon 30 May 2011:

I love Webers, but Phew, are you ever lost.
Here’s the flaw in what you’re asking… With Webers the
only way to set them correctly is on a chassis dyno*… Oh
you might get lucky but your car has to be exactly the same
as the other car, the weather needs to be identical and the
altitude exactly the same…
If you put 100 different Jag Motors on a dyno you’re likely
to get 98-97 different horsepower numbers…
The beauty of SU’s is that they pretty well adjust for
different air densities and humidity. Oh there is slight
variation and if you spend enough time on the dyno you
figure out exactly how many flats to turn to adjust for
whatever air density humidity is needed…
Now this sort of thing is only critical when racing…and
only makea couple of horsepower difference…
You can also figure out Webers the same way. Get a Air
density meter, measure the air density/humidity at several
times during the day and as things change figure out which
jets respond to what air density…
Now again we’re talking about a few horsepower or a slight
change in gas mileage (if that’s what’s important to you)
But realize that Webers on a relatively stock engine are
really only worth maybe 15 horsepower at best…
Yes 15 horsepower on an engine reported at 265 but actually
closer to 200 is a decent improvement…
But it’s also relatively easy to be off enough on fuel
mixture to lose all and then some of that power…
OK the first thing you need to know is most sets of Webers
have too large of a choke (we call them venturies) for a
street motor. Until you get the chokes right you’ll never
get the rest correct…

  • a chassis dyno is your friend.
    You warm the car up properly and then go full throttle to
    the redline. That part takes about 15 seconds or so and
    doesn’t hurt the engine/car at all… much easier than
    trying to tune the car any other way…
    You’ll get a print out, make changes, and do another full
    throttle pull see if it’s better or worse and eventually
    (takes about 1/2 hour) get the car as good as it can be…
    Around here that will cost you about $50. Try for an early
    morning time… then put the car back on the dyno as the
    weather changes… 3-4 times during a day. (if you’re lucky
    they won’t have any other cars scheduled that day and you
    can just leave the car strapped down) and for a couple of
    hundred dollars plus jets etc. Have not only the car
    perfectly tuned but be able to adjust as the weather changes
    etc…
    Done that way your car will get good gas mileage(same or
    better than SU’s)make max power, and you’ll really know
    something.–
    The original message included these comments:

suit a stock 4.2 XK fitted with Webers.
Christian was unsure, from recall the Air correction jet and
Can anyone provide the missing numbers for me?
My 45s which only did circuit test miles from new are
presently tuned to suit a 305 BHP XK.
member or will sell them.
If interested drop me a PM.


MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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In reply to a message from MGuar sent Tue 31 May 2011:

Thanks for your well informed reply MGuar.
I got these webers in the deal with the car. It had twin
Strom’s fitted.
As the engine is out at present to enable other work to be
done I am taking the opportunity to find out more about
these webers from folk like yourself who ‘have been there
and done it’.
Come fitting time I hope to at least know what I am talking
about.
Would still like to know which Pump jets and air correction
jets are best suited as a good starting point on my stock
engine as I shall have to change them along with all the
other tuning components within the carbs.
Eugene.
A.K.A. old jag man.–
The original message included these comments:

In reply to a message from old jag man sent Mon 30 May 2011:
I love Webers, but Phew, are you ever lost.

  • a chassis dyno is your friend.
    MGuar


old jag man
ARMAGH, United Kingdom
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I sold my Webers recently and all the books went with them. But here
is one book that I used and found extremely useful. If you’re going
to put them on the E I would strongly suggest you get this book.

http://www.amazon.com/How-Power-Tune-Jaguar-Engines/dp/1845840054/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1306855440&sr=8-3-spellOn Tue, May 31, 2011 at 10:58 AM, old jag man eugene67@hotmail.co.uk wrote:

In reply to a message from MGuar sent Tue 31 May 2011:

Thanks for your well informed reply MGuar.
I got these webers in the deal with the car. It had twin
Strom’s fitted.
As the engine is out at present to enable other work to be
done I am taking the opportunity to find out more about
these webers from folk like yourself who ‘have been there
and done it’.
Come fitting time I hope to at least know what I am talking
about.
Would still like to know which Pump jets and air correction
jets are best suited as a good starting point on my stock
engine as I shall have to change them along with all the
other tuning components within the carbs.
Eugene.
A.K.A. old jag man.

The original message included these comments:

In reply to a message from old jag man sent Mon 30 May 2011:
I love Webers, but Phew, are you ever lost.

  • a chassis dyno is your friend.
    MGuar


old jag man
ARMAGH, United Kingdom
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Les…'68 S1.5 2+2


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Also, fuel level, pressure and good solid throttle linkage is critical
with these carbs…I converted mine to cable operation and Dick
Maury has done the same.On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Les Halls <@Les_Halls1> wrote:

I sold my Webers recently and all the books went with them. But here
is one book that I used and found extremely useful. If you’re going
to put them on the E I would strongly suggest you get this book.

http://www.amazon.com/How-Power-Tune-Jaguar-Engines/dp/1845840054/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1306855440&sr=8-3-spell

On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 10:58 AM, old jag man eugene67@hotmail.co.uk wrote:

In reply to a message from MGuar sent Tue 31 May 2011:

Thanks for your well informed reply MGuar.
I got these webers in the deal with the car. It had twin
Strom’s fitted.
As the engine is out at present to enable other work to be
done I am taking the opportunity to find out more about
these webers from folk like yourself who ‘have been there
and done it’.
Come fitting time I hope to at least know what I am talking
about.
Would still like to know which Pump jets and air correction
jets are best suited as a good starting point on my stock
engine as I shall have to change them along with all the
other tuning components within the carbs.
Eugene.
A.K.A. old jag man.

The original message included these comments:

In reply to a message from old jag man sent Mon 30 May 2011:
I love Webers, but Phew, are you ever lost.

  • a chassis dyno is your friend.
    MGuar


old jag man
ARMAGH, United Kingdom
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Les…'68 S1.5 2+2


Les…'68 S1.5 2+2


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In reply to a message from old jag man sent Mon 30 May 2011:

I agree 100% with McGuar, a rolling road session is needed for
optimum setup, however, a basic setup to get you going, assuming
DCOE 45 Type 9’s - chokes 38mm, 150 mains, f2 emulsion tubes, 180
air correctors, 45 pump jets, 45 idle jets, 7.5mm float height.

A quote from Des Hamill’s book,‘No modified road going engine needs
more than twin 13/4 or 2 inch SUs’ One reason I removed my Webers
and fitted a Stromberg manifold with twin HS8 SUs.

Don’t forget also, you have the emission control distributor
advance curve assuming the original distributor, S3 XJ6 electronic
is considered a good replacement. I went 36 - 1 trigger wheel and
fully mappable advance, which is also an advantage with webers and
no vacuum advance/retard, as you can use a throttle position sensor.

Check out my photos for weber and SU installations.–
The original message included these comments:

I have searched the archives for the correct jetting etc. to
suit a stock 4.2 XK fitted with Webers.


r1_pete
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In reply to a message from r1_pete sent Tue 31 May 2011:

Appology to MGuar for the c.–
The original message included these comments:

I agree 100% with McGuar, a rolling road session is needed for


r1_pete
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I would agree with what both Pete and Mguar has said. Having said
that though, it shouldn’t be assumed that Webers are a troublesome
exercise…IF…you have access to said dyno, the expertise to
read the results and access to the variety of jets.tubes etc you might
need.

My own E had them on it when I got it so it wasn’t choice for me.
However, over the years I could never get it just right! I didn’t
have access to a dyno anywhere near my home so I decided to just
muddle through with them. They ran ok, started just fine (no choke
required), got decent fuel economy and over the years I kinda got hard
headed about those who tried to tell me that SU’s and even the Stroms
would run just as well.

Finally, earlier this year (maybe late last year…memory) I decided
to put the car back to original as far as carb’s and air-intake went.
I made mod’s to the manifold by removing the secondary throttle plates
and fine tuning the manifold internals for good smooth airflow from
the secondary to primary manifolds. Rebuilt the original Stroms,
fitted a new choke cable and bolted it all on.

The result has been surprising. The car runs just as good as it did
with the Webers and revs higher. This is probably because my Webers
weren’t tuned quite correctly, per my earlier comments.

Purpose of all this narrative…if you want more performance then
know that if you use the Webers, you really need to make some changes
to the engine internals to take advantage of them, otherwise, imo, the
hassle isn’t worth it.

If you want just eye candy and like the induction roar of more or less
open induction pipes, then the Webers are for you.

Beyond the Jag, my experience with Webers was from the Lotus Elan and
Europa and Lotus Cortina of years ago. Also a couple of Ford Anglias,
and a mini and MGB. All these cars ran just fine but it took a lot
of work (not with the Lotus as it was original equipment) to get them
right.

You have been warned…:-)On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 1:08 PM, r1_pete pcongreve@sky.com wrote:

In reply to a message from old jag man sent Mon 30 May 2011:

I agree 100% with McGuar, a rolling road session is needed for
optimum setup, however, a basic setup to get you going, assuming
DCOE 45 Type 9’s - chokes 38mm, 150 mains, f2 emulsion tubes, 180
air correctors, 45 pump jets, 45 idle jets, 7.5mm float height.

A quote from Des Hamill’s book,‘No modified road going engine needs
more than twin 13/4 or 2 inch SUs’ One reason I removed my Webers
and fitted a Stromberg manifold with twin HS8 SUs.

Don’t forget also, you have the emission control distributor
advance curve assuming the original distributor, S3 XJ6 electronic
is considered a good replacement. I went 36 - 1 trigger wheel and
fully mappable advance, which is also an advantage with webers and
no vacuum advance/retard, as you can use a throttle position sensor.

Check out my photos for weber and SU installations.

The original message included these comments:

I have searched the archives for the correct jetting etc. to
suit a stock 4.2 XK fitted with Webers.


r1_pete
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Les…'68 S1.5 2+2


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In reply to a message from old jag man sent Mon 30 May 2011:

Boxes of jets and tubes for Webers gets pricy. I’ve seen
racers change their Weber settings several times a day under
certain conditions. With Webers you need to record the
atmospheric conditions as well as your other engine
parameters with your carb’s set up to keep handy for
changing those jets and tubes.To get the benifits, you have
to go through the process and have the righty tools, meters,
etc.–
The original message included these comments:

I have searched the archives for the correct jetting etc. to
suit a stock 4.2 XK fitted with Webers.


Mr. Nice Spokes 1966 OTS 1E12387
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I’ve found this to be the case more with the DCOEs than with other Webers.
My 308GTB has four 40DCNFs on it and they haven’t been tuned in a decade.
Best thing to do with Webers, at least the less picky ones, is to tune them
according to the book and the bury your screwdrivers in the back yard. Mine
are out there buried - right next to my paint-burning power buffer…

-rickOn Tue, May 31, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Nice Spokes fbing2@comcast.net wrote:

In reply to a message from old jag man sent Mon 30 May 2011:

Boxes of jets and tubes for Webers gets pricy. I’ve seen
racers change their Weber settings several times a day under
certain conditions. With Webers you need to record the
atmospheric conditions as well as your other engine
parameters with your carb’s set up to keep handy for
changing those jets and tubes.To get the benifits, you have
to go through the process and have the righty tools, meters,
etc.

The original message included these comments:

I have searched the archives for the correct jetting etc. to
suit a stock 4.2 XK fitted with Webers.


Mr. Nice Spokes 1966 OTS 1E12387
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In reply to a message from old jag man sent Mon 30 May 2011:

I bet there are more people on this board that had, and
removed, Webers, than are still happy with them. On a stock
engine, Webers really have nothing to add, other than as eye
candy. You’ll spend a fortune getting them properly tuned
(though once setup right, you’ll never have to touch them
again), and you’ll never get the mileage you will with either
SUs or Stroms. You’ll get reduced low-speed driveability, and
an almost perceptible increase in very top-end performance.
And, of course, loads in intake noise, hard cold starting, and
all that fun stuff.
I’d stick with SUs, sell the Webers, and use the money to buy
something useful.–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from Nice Spokes sent Tue 31 May 2011:

Boxes of jets chokes etc… get pricy. Yes! I had a
beginners set for my V12 race car and with over $2000 in
spares I was never really perfect…
Bill Terry Tells me he goes to a race with $5000-$7000
worth of jets chokes etc… (and that’s for a 6 cylinder
engine not the V12)
Yes it makes a difference. Least wise for racing… For the
street not so critical…
One of the things you learn either the easy way or the hard
way is never drill out the jets… Weber Jets are flowed.
That means a certain entrance and exit radius… You can
drill out jets and actually wind up leaner! What’s worse you
now have no repeatability…–
The original message included these comments:

Boxes of jets and tubes for Webers gets pricy. I’ve seen
racers change their Weber settings several times a day under
certain conditions. With Webers you need to record the
atmospheric conditions as well as your other engine
parameters with your carb’s set up to keep handy for
changing those jets and tubes.To get the benifits, you have
to go through the process and have the righty tools, meters,


MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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In reply to a message from old jag man sent Tue 31 May 2011:

Let me help you a bit while you’ve got the engine out please
don’t replace the camshafts!
Not unless you’re going to racing specs and maybe even not
then…
I’ve got a set of Piper Cams and they are a serious
improvement over reground racing cams, but I race!
Full out 150+MPH racing… (only race) 13-1 compression
ratio big valve heads ported, flowed, and reported.reworked
distributor, Headers, dry sump, triple disk racing flywheel
etc. etc. etc.
I wouldn’t do any of that for the street!–
The original message included these comments:

Thanks for your well informed reply MGuar.
I got these webers in the deal with the car. It had twin
Strom’s fitted.
As the engine is out at present to enable other work to be
done I am taking the opportunity to find out more about
these webers from folk like yourself who ‘have been there
and done it’.


MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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In reply to a message from old jag man sent Mon 30 May 2011:

Sorry, I meant to ask which chokes and jets are you planning
on starting from and tell me what your goals are? Racing,
looks, fuel mileage, smooth running,?
Also what sort of specs do you have with the engine? How
much has been milled off the head? the Block? (rare to find
either untouched)compression bore size, valve sizes, etc.–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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In reply to a message from MGuar sent Wed 1 Jun 2011:

As said the webers came in the deal with the abandoned resto
of this 67 ‘E’.
Had it been fitted with triple SUs I would have been happy
but with the Stroms fitted, er no. The webers were on the
bench next the ‘E’ and I thought now they would look the
business. A deal was done which actually included a 1980
Mercedes 380 SLC in VGC. Vendor having to down size his
collection due to serious health issues. All this a
consequence of him phoning me to say he heard I was looking
spares for my Mk2. We only live 20 miles apart.
Back to the webers. As the engine was running well I am
leaving it as is apart from fitting a ser. 3 XJ6 dizzy and a
6 branch SS header.I believe it to be pretty much stock as
there is no history of it ‘being breathed on’, has its
origional 9.1 head fitted. It is out due to me converting to
5 speed and freshening up the firewall and frames.I was, on
advice from Christian Hueber (archives)and r1-pete for the
latter 2 going to fit 165 main jet, 180 air correction
jets, F-2 emulsion tubes, 65 F-8 idle jets, 38 chokes, 3.5
secondarys, pump jet 45 and float height of 7.5.
I have no intention of doing any ‘speed’ events or high
mileage when finished. Yes, I do like the look of the webers
on an E coupled with a nice SS header. I am going to fit
mesh filters rather than the other options as again they
look better. Has anyone a set for sale ? I know to expect
significant induction howl using mesh filters.
I do have Des Hamills book on the XK though I prefer to ask
for the general consensus from those who have run their cars
as I intend.
old jag man.–
The original message included these comments:

Sorry, I meant to ask which chokes and jets are you planning
on starting from and tell me what your goals are? Racing,
looks, fuel mileage, smooth running,?
Also what sort of specs do you have with the engine? How
much has been milled off the head? the Block? (rare to find
either untouched)compression bore size, valve sizes, etc.
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States


old jag man
ARMAGH, United Kingdom
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In reply to a message from old jag man sent Wed 1 Jun 2011:

FWIW there are no ‘9:1’ heads. All the 4.2-3.8 E-type heads were
the same compression, theoretically, until/unless they have been
skimmed (which you can’t tell by looking at an intact engine).

I’m sure your engine is fine and stock, but I just mention the
above so you don’t think there are different heads for different
compressions, like a racing 2-stroke or something…

Pete–
The original message included these comments:

there is no history of it ‘being breathed on’, has its
origional 9.1 head fitted. It is out due to me converting to


69 E-type OTS 99 Daimler SuperV8, 55 Zealia/Lynx D clone
Cambridge, United Kingdom
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As said the webers came in the deal with the abandoned resto
of this 67 ‘E’.
Had it been fitted with triple SUs I would have been happy
but with the Stroms fitted, er no.

If your statement about stroms is related to performance, then I would
say you’re misguided. Set of used Stroms…maybe a couple
hundred…set of used SU’s…couple of thousand…and
the performance difference will hardly be noticed…IMO.

The webers were on the
bench next the ‘E’ and I thought now they would look the
business.

They would and do.On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 5:43 AM, old jag man eugene67@hotmail.co.uk wrote:


Les…'68 S1.5 2+2


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In reply to a message from Les Halls sent Wed 1 Jun 2011:

Replies to Pete and Les.
Pete, my E is a 4.2 series 1.
I did mention a 380 SLC Merc. in one of my replies maybe
thats where you thought I had a 3.8 E. My 63 Mk 2 is a 3.8
but I don’t think it was mentioned in ref to the webers.
No harm done.
Les, re the Stroms. I, and I would believe a great
percentage of ‘E’ owners here in the U.K. would have it on
their priority list to remove the Stroms if fitted.
Yes,my car was running fine on them but------------ they
have to go. In my case I am changing them for appearance
sake as well as them not having any street cred. over here.
As said earlier the webers were pretty much an opportunity i
took advantage of to clinch a deal, with of course the swap
in mind.
old jag man.–
The original message included these comments:

If your statement about stroms is related to performance, then I would
hundred…set of used SU’s…couple of thousand…and
the performance difference will hardly be noticed…IMO.

The webers were on the
bench next the ‘E’ and I thought now they would look the
business.
They would and do.


old jag man
ARMAGH, United Kingdom
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Les, re the Stroms. I, and I would believe a great
percentage of ‘E’ owners here in the U.K. would have it on
their priority list to remove the Stroms if fitted.
Yes,my car was running fine on them but------------ they
have to go. In my case I am changing them for appearance
sake as well as them not having any street cred. over here.

Yep, I get it, I really do…this SU vs. Strom thing is, imo, more
emotional than factual…of course, so is the Weber vs Su vs.
Strom thing too. It’s difficult to look at things objectively when
you’re constantly reminded by your buddies that your car sucks because
it sports Stroms.

I try to look at it from a value standpoint…a stance which is
playing out in my other life as a biker. My sons have BMW’s and they
keep pressing me to get one, but I have a Vstrom and it performs and
does exactly what I need it to, at less than half the price…so
that’s how I look at the SU conversion. And the Strom vs SU “exchange
rate” is a whole lot more than twice the price, more like five times
the rate. And I just can’t justify if from a performace standpoint.

But. more power to you man! Go with the SU’s, at least they’ll be
easier for you to handle on your own!On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 11:44 AM, old jag man eugene67@hotmail.co.uk wrote:


Les…'68 S1.5 2+2


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In reply to a message from PeterCrespin sent Wed 1 Jun 2011:

Peter is correct about having the head/block skimmed over
the decades since it was built… Impossible to tell simply
by looking… In fact I doubt any head/block I’ve worked on
in the past few decades hasn’t been skimmed. How much? I’ve
stopped guessing… Now I measure. Even that is getting
uncertain due to the fact that some shops skim the bottom of
the block when they line bore it. I used to use a Gauge I
had made to measure deck height.(never lend out tools) I’m
certain that someone someplace has the block height as well
as the correct cc’s for the stock head… I just do the math.–
The original message included these comments:

FWIW there are no ‘9:1’ heads. All the 4.2-3.8 E-type heads were
the same compression, theoretically, until/unless they have been
skimmed (which you can’t tell by looking at an intact engine).
I’m sure your engine is fine and stock, but I just mention the


MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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