[E-Type] Why America can't get small, efficient cars

I hope this site gets through…
LLoyd
http://comcast.vehix.com/automotive/Article.aspx?artid=15B000000000022&cid=441

He tried to impress her. He was courteous and surprised her. But he knew the relationship was doomed when she tasted his home made asparagus-beet soup and made the same noise as a cat with a fur ball.______________________________________________________
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Same old issues, incompatible safety & emissions regulations, combined with the persistent myths of the american driver: Wants to drive a gigantic car (or truck). Won’t drive a stickshift. Won’t buy a small car.

I for one am tired of mythology limiting my choices. I’d buy a MINI-D in a heartbeat. But I’m not allowed to! So much for freedom eh?

–chuckSent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile


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In reply to a message from chuck goolsbee sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

Chuck,

You have the freedom to buy any car you like, you just can’t drive
it here! :slight_smile:
Personally, I find it hard to believe it’s that big as deal for the
manufacturers to bring those cars over here. They just don’t
because:
a) They’d sell in very limited volumes
b) They’d be very low profit margin
We fat, lazy Americans like a car loaded down with power everything
(windows, seats, A/C, GPS, sunroof, etc., etc.), which those cars
can’t offer, and still get that kind of mileage. And the few of us
who would buy them, are not numerous enough to justify the
certification expense on the slim margins those cars would carry.–
The original message included these comments:

I for one am tired of mythology limiting my choices. I’d buy a MINI-D in a heartbeat. But I’m not allowed to! So much for freedom eh?
–chuck


Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
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In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

My take on it (thanks to Ray L for providing the bulk of my take!):

''Personally, I find it hard to believe it’s that big as deal for
the manufacturers to bring those cars over here. They just don’t
because:
a) They’d sell in very limited volumes
b) They’d be very low profit margin

We fat, lazy Americans like a car loaded down with power
everything (windows, seats, A/C, GPS, sunroof, etc., etc.), which
those cars can’t offer, and still get that kind of mileage…’’

…and we will continue to do so, till the price of a gallon of gas
gets to, and remains at, its approaching the true cost of that
gallon of gas, around $6-$8/gallon.

Until then, expect fat, lazy Americans to continue to stuff their
heads up…er, in the sand.

Paul (definitely fat, but not lazy, who’d buy a MINI-D, or any
other decent small diesel car in a New York second) Wiggles–
Paul Wigton, steward to a '60 DKW 1000 SP, Tweety, '63 FHC!
Keenesburg, CO, United States
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In reply to a message from Ray Livingston sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

FWIW many small cars have had all these things and more for a long
time. True, you can get base models without - perhaps like the
Yaris you hired a couple of years back - but electric everything
and AC etc is available on higher trim levels of the little 'uns
from most makers. The mileage doesn’t suffer unduly, or if it does
it might be down to 46 mpg combined, instead of 49 or whatever.

Pete–
The original message included these comments:

We fat, lazy Americans like a car loaded down with power everything
(windows, seats, A/C, GPS, sunroof, etc., etc.), which those cars


68 E-type OTS, 96 X300 XJ12, 94 XJR 5-speed manual
Cambridge, United Kingdom
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In reply to a message from PeterCrespin sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

Pete is right, these cars have just about everything. Here
you go - design your own MINI:

And the new Fiat 500 Abarth SS has to be the best small car
in the World, well certainly the one you can have most fun in!

David–
David Jones, S1 OTS
Nottingham, United Kingdom
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In reply to a message from soothsayer1@comcast.net sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

Guys,
I’m just old enough to remember the early 50’s when we started to
see VW bugs come in. They were a novelty & no one took them
seriously. Well guess what? North Americans will drive cars with
manual shifts, no A/C, no PB, no PS, no PW, etc., etc. If the big 3
would have learned that lesson years ago, they could now have been
exporting to the rest of the world cars getting 40-60mpg. Instead,
they are scrambling to survive, and we still don’t have cars
available that compare with the BMW mini d. I think we should put
our car executives on a boat with the Wall Street bankers who are
crying, and sink the da-n boat!–
Stan Goodman - 69 Series 2 E-Type FHC
Bonita Springs/FL, United States
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In reply to a message from Heuer sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

Dave & all,
I remember hiding a buddy’s Fiat 500 under a pile of leaves once.
Ya just gotta love small cars!

I like the looks of that new Abarth. As a former Fiat 850 and
Abarth 1000 OT owner (in my younger days) enough time has passed
that the electrical, valve, and tranny problems have dimmed
somewhat. My girlfriend back then had a 124 coupe which was a fun,
cool car in its day (while it ran). Then she bought 124 Spyder. All
nice cars.(while they ran!)

Ya don’t see too many Fiats around here wonder why???
(don’t bother answering that one)
Dave–
1969 BRG OTS
Skaneateles, NY, United States
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In reply to a message from chuck goolsbee sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

I take a different view of this.

I think the domestic manufacturers will sell anything in this
country that they think they can sell at a profit. And when you
think about it that’s what they should be doing. They owe the
owners of the company a profit, not feel good ‘‘green’’ cars.

The domestics have a hard time selling small fuel efficient cars
not because they can’t or won’t make them, but because, the public
has time and time again shown that they don’t want them. There are
people, like many of us here, that want small fun to drive fuel
efficient cars but I believe we are not typical.

I don’t think I’ve heard one owner of a big SUV, pickup or minivan
complain that they bought their vehicle because they couldn’t find
a small fuel efficient vehicle instead. They bought what they
drive because it fills their needs. We could get into the ‘‘needs’’
vs ‘‘wants’’ arguments but that’s an entirely different discussion.

And it’s not just the domestics. Every domestic small car I can
remember since the Ford Falcon in 1960 has grown over time. Not
because the manufacturers decided on their own that they should be
bigger but because the public wanted more room, more power, more
gadgets, etc.

THe same thing has happened to the imports. Look how the size of
the Corolla, Camry, Civic and Accord have changed in the past 20
years. Today’s Civic/Corolla is about the same size as the past
versions of the Accorde/Camry.

The buying public began to vote with their pocket books last summer
when gasoline prices jumped to $4.00+ per gallon. Sales of big
vehicles went down while the sales of small cars and fuel efficient
pickups and SUV, like the Ranger and Escape, increased.–
John Walker, 1969 2+2 - ‘Lola’
La Porte, Tex, United States
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In reply to a message from soothsayer1@comcast.net sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

Our politicians do not even have the testicular fortitude
to switch to digital tv, much less require a world-useful
cellphone standard, allow importation of efficient cars that
get crushed under Bubba’s maxi-SUV, or raise gas
prices to levels that would actually change America’s buying
and commuting habits. Give us gas and Suburbans and fiddle
away, boys…–
Bruce Robillard 72 OTS/JT5
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In reply to a message from David Ahlers sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

But, we do!

  1. In the late 60’s I used a 56 VW and later a 60 Vw Cabrio to
    commute from California’s San Fernando Valley to my Mid Wilshire
    office. Two or three other guys in the office had them also. That
    was $2.00 gas as I recall. But, expensive in respect my income at
    the time.

  2. Another fellow I knew was paid per mile for his company calls.
    He made enugh to buy a new VW every two years and pass one down to
    his wife and sell the older one. So, they had economic
    transportation and low maintenance cars that were paid for.

  3. When I worked in San Francisco, one of the other supervisors was
    a recent emigre from China. some one sold him a Fiat. Nothing buy
    trouble. I used to try to help him keep it running. He learned
    basic maintenace and monor mechanical repairs from me on that weird
    little beast. His next car was a big honking V8 powered Monte
    Carlo!!!

  4. My son’s SO was forced her to replace her PT Cruiser. Freeway
    rear ended, totaled. After much shopping, she bought a 2007
    Chevrolet HTR. A very nice little car with tons of amenities.
    Supposedly capable of mid thirties MPG on the freeway. A nostalgia
    car suggestive of early fifties Chevrolet pickups!! $10.500 ‘‘out
    the door’’.

  5. GM has an even maller car with even better mileage as does Ford.

  6. The big SUV’s are not selling that well, I wonder why!!

7 A new 09 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo with a good ‘‘package’’ About
5k of sticker for 24k. My 14 year old Jeep Laredo is worth about
3k. Not too bad as to depreciation. I doubt that it will devalue
much more as long as it runs good and looks decent.

  1. Consumer reports was touting the Camry over the Chrysler 300. No
    objective reasoning, just a subjective it seems to ride better and
    be more competent on the road!!! Not that Camry’s are not a fione
    car, they are. A bit boring, but competent. Chrysler showed up with
    advanced striking styling, but failed to push it.

  2. $14K or so will buy an XJ6 fromn the very expensive Jaguar
    dealer. Not new of course.

Don’t count the ‘‘big three’’ out yet.

Carl–
The original message included these comments:

I remember hiding a buddy’s Fiat 500 under a pile of leaves once.
Ya just gotta love small cars!
I like the looks of that new Abarth. As a former Fiat 850 and
Abarth 1000 OT owner (in my younger days) enough time has passed
that the electrical, valve, and tranny problems have dimmed
somewhat. My girlfriend back then had a 124 coupe which was a fun,
cool car in its day (while it ran). Then she bought 124 Spyder. All
nice cars.(while they ran!)
Ya don’t see too many Fiats around here wonder why???
(don’t bother answering that one)


Carl Hutchins 1983 Jaguar XJ6 with LT1 and 1994 Jeep Grand
Walnut Creek, California, United States
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In reply to a message from soothsayer1@comcast.net sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

What if the Federal Govt simply popped a 100% sales tax on
gasoline? At 390 million gallons a day, that would be about 0.8
billion dollars a day or 292 billion a year. In 40 years or more
we might be able to pay off our National Debt. As 33% of our
taxes go to servicing that debt, we would all end up with tax
savings of 33% which would stimulate the economy hugely. In
addition, cars would become more efficient, our towns would begin
to reorganize to become more fuel efficient, greenhouse gases would
begin to drop (but not enough). If it were possible to exclude
farm equipment, bulldozers, etc., that might make sense.

Sure, the price of everything would go up, just like it did six
months ago. It wasn’t catastrophic. What’s the catch?–
Mark F. Bean '72 SIII OTS (refurbishing firewall forward)
Valley Forge, PA, United States
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In reply to a message from beanmf sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

I agree. We need to increase th fed gasoline tax. Use the money for
infrastructure and mass transit.
As the price goes up, the consumption will go down.

Also, there is too much auto manufacturiing capacity in the world
today. Some need to go.

My understanding is that one of the big reasons you can’t import
the neat cars is because iof Ujion agreements and the CAFE
standards,although I don’t know what in the CAFE standards keeps
them out.

I don’t buy the big cars little cars issue about accidents. If I’m
in an accident with my TR3 and a Subaru SUV, I will suffer greatly.

If I’m in an accident with my Subaru SUV and a Peterbilt, I will
also suffer. I’d drive a Eurpoean Ford in a heartbeat over here.

Mike Moore–
The original message included these comments:

What if the Federal Govt simply popped a 100% sales tax on
gasoline? At 390 million gallons a day, that would be about 0.8
billion dollars a day or 292 billion a year. In 40 years or more
we might be able to pay off our National Debt. As 33% of our
taxes go to servicing that debt, we would all end up with tax
savings of 33% which would stimulate the economy hugely. In
addition, cars would become more efficient, our towns would begin
to reorganize to become more fuel efficient, greenhouse gases would
begin to drop (but not enough). If it were possible to exclude
farm equipment, bulldozers, etc., that might make sense.
Sure, the price of everything would go up, just like it did six


Mike Moore 63 O2S
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In reply to a message from beanmf sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

Mark:

Careful about what you wish for!!! Yikes, give the fed’s that much
more money to piddle away??? Egads!!

Importing cars by anyone is not easy. Extra preparation at the
European factory. Overland shipment from factory to port. Port
costs and shipping costs. The car will ever be accepterd ion
europen mode, thusly requiring extra facilities and training to
produce an ‘‘export’’ version.

Then, parts have to be shipped and stocked. Tech’s must be trained
to service them. Sales people have to be trained to sell that car.

Lots of start up costs & maintenance that is grester than a car
msde in the USA.

There just isn’t enough mark up to cover those costs and render a
modicum of profit.

I didn’t even mention DOT & EPA testing and qualification.

In the md fifties Studebaker tried to market a low costr car using
the same metl but a really striped version. The Scotsman, Ugly. No
offense gentlemen, please. It flopped.

George Romney caught the right moment and did Nash did very well
with their little Rambler series. Clever engineering allowed the
little flat head six to grow an OHV head.

The Pinto, notwithstanding it’s unfortyunate fuel tank issue was
avery economical and serviceable ittle car. The little four weighed
a lot, but got good mileage and was virtually indistructible. The
engoine served in Ranger trucks and even with a turbo chsrger in
the TBird turbopoupe. It was raced against the Mazda rotary
powered cars and won and lasted much longer.

The Chevrolet Vega was a nice enough little car. A bit on the
cheap, but the engne was all right except for the engineering goof
of trying to use trearte bores in lieu of sleeves in the aluminum
block. When tehy became smokers, and got steel sleeves,they became
nice little engines.Bore failure, isn’t that a bit famiiar?

Singer writer Neil Young drives a 59 Lincoln Continental Coupe. The
biggest of the big. But, it’s big honking 430 CI V8 has been
r4placed with a bio powered hybrid. He and his mnechanic cliam 500
ft/lbs torque, instantly. One picture shoed the mechanic sitting in
the engine bsy working on the power plant.

The mid nineties Olds Achieva with quad four power came close to a
compact sedan with performance and mileage and amenities. Head
gasket issues, where did I hear about that?

Had one for a while.

Carl–
The original message included these comments:

What if the Federal Govt simply popped a 100% sales tax on
gasoline? At 390 million gallons a day, that would be about 0.8
billion dollars a day or 292 billion a year. In 40 years or more
we might be able to pay off our National Debt. As 33% of our
taxes go to servicing that debt, we would all end up with tax
savings of 33% which would stimulate the economy hugely. In
addition, cars would become more efficient, our towns would begin
to reorganize to become more fuel efficient, greenhouse gases would
begin to drop (but not enough). If it were possible to exclude
farm equipment, bulldozers, etc., that might make sense.
Sure, the price of everything would go up, just like it did six


Carl Hutchins 1983 Jaguar XJ6 with LT1 and 1994 Jeep Grand
Walnut Creek, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–


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In reply to a message from michaelmoore sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

You have to understand how the car business works in
America. The dealer orders cars from the factory, and the
factory tells him what he can have. Let’s say the dealer
wants 100 Plain Janes, which the factory makes for $5000,
sells to the dealer for $5500, and the dealer sells for
$6500; and 20 Barges, with some bells and whistles which
the factory makes for $5500, sells for $6500, and the
dealer sells for $8,000; and 5 Showroom Queens, with all
the bells and whistles, which the factory makes for $6000,
sells for $8000, and the dealer sells for $10,000. IF he
can sell them. The factory tells the dealer he can have 80
Janes, 30 Barges, and 10 Queens. And the sales force pushes
the Barges and the Queens, because they have to get rid of
them, and they get more commission, by telling the customer
that if they want a Jane they’ll have to order it and it’ll
take a month, or they can have a barge or a Queen today.
‘‘No money down, easy payments.’’ There are enough marks and
mooches (sales talk, which tells you what they think of the
customer) to make it work. Same with the housing industry.
Who needs 400 HP, electric everything, leather seats and so
on in a car, or 5,000 sq feet, marble counters, and heated
towel rails made of silver in a house? No one.–
1969 4.2 Series 2 E Type
Brentwood Bay, B.C., Canada
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In reply to a message from Wiggles sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

True price of a gallon of gas due to our inneptitude. I’m not
talking about the longevity of the supply, just getting what we
know is where, here, now.–
The original message included these comments:

…and we will continue to do so, till the price of a gallon of gas
gets to, and remains at, its approaching the true cost of that
gallon of gas, around $6-$8/gallon.


Nick K. - 1964 OTS, 1968 FHC & 2007 Impreza WRX
Saint Louis, Missouri, United States
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In reply to a message from cadjag sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

Dear visitor…we’re gonna hafta disagree on this’un!

‘‘The Chevrolet Vega was a nice enough little car. A bit on the
cheap, but the engne was all right except for the engineering goof
of trying to use trearte bores in lieu of sleeves in the aluminum
block. When tehy became smokers, and got steel sleeves,they
became nice little engines.’’

Uh, Carl…the Vega is arguably the worst POS this country ever
made. I know; I was a mechanic on the miserable piles of s**t.

It began rusting on the showroom floors (literally!), the build
quality was bloody awful, and even when they went to the so-
called ‘‘DuraTech’’ engine (to take care of the GM engineering
BLUNDER which Porsche seemed to not have much difficulty with, that
of NikaSil ali cylinders) It wasn’t good for much more than 50-60K.

The cylinder head design was absolutely insipid (valves adjustable
only in 1/4 turn segmants), was heavy and had LOTS of head gasket
issues. Even the Cosworth head, with its FAR superior flow and
design, was still stuck on top of that excreable excuse of a lower
end…not much help! I NEVER worked ona Jag with as many head
issues (THERE, dammit! ObJagCon!!)

It used the water pump as the cam belt tightener (yes, boys and
girls, the pump had elongated holes to slide back and forth to
adjust cam belt tension…!!!), guaranteeing that when the water
pump went Tango Uniform (which they did it regularly) the
interference valve design GUARANTEEd a trashed engine.

The driveline had a vibration problem, and they ‘solved’ it by
hanging about 10 pounds of crudely-cut metal on the back of the
(good Opel) transmission.

It rattled, it rusted (oh yeah: Ya can’t take the hood off; it was
WELDED onto the f’n car!!), it handled like dog crap…but it was
a cute body design! The electrics went wonky ALL the time, the in-
tank fuel pump failed with alarming regularity and, oh YES! They
had THE MOST OBNOXIOUS seat belt buzzer ever invented which, if
you tried to unhook it, the car wouldn’t run!

The Pinto, though no great car, was a FAR better car than that evil
Vega. And if the Vega had been hit in the back of, with a 71-MPH
speeding Ford van while sitting at a stoplight(like the poor Pinto
was vilified for) nearly ANY other car of the period would also
have exploded in a fireball. I’d go on, but I think I made my
point!

No, I think we’ll disagree on the Vega, Carl…:):):)–
Paul Wigton, steward to a '60 DKW 1000 SP, Tweety, '63 FHC!
Keenesburg, CO, United States
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In reply to a message from michaelmoore sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

Sorry Mike, but I totally disagree. The worst thing we can
possibly do is give more money to our federal government to solve
this problem. It is quite possibly the most inefficient way to get
anything done and I personally value each and every dollar I earn.

One thing I would support is a high-speed rail system connecting
all of our major cities. Unfortunately, it makes too much sense
and will never happen. I also think that if we go down the road of
forcing mandates on people, we should force industry to switch over
to fuel efficient vehicles first before we force everyday commuters
to do so. Why should I have to abide by a fuel mandate when
industries do not? For example, mail delivery vehicles should be
getting at least 50mpg. There are also other categories of non-
essential vehicles that can be switched over too - boats, ATVs,
RVs, etc. I guess we’ll just have to ban jet airliners altogether,
unless it’s an overseas flight. Will there be a huge increase in
the cost of goods and services, you betcha. But it’s six on one
hand, yadda yadda.

I view this issue much the same as gun ownership. You can have my
guns once I see the last cop hand over his/her gun. I’m not coming
from a selfish point of view, but what’s good for the goose is good
for the gander and I for one am sick of being pushed to the front
of the line.–
The original message included these comments:

I agree. We need to increase th fed gasoline tax. Use the money for
infrastructure and mass transit.


Nick K. - 1964 OTS, 1968 FHC & 2007 Impreza WRX
Saint Louis, Missouri, United States
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In reply to a message from Wiggles sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

Paul:

Stradling the fence a bit?

They did make nice patforms for SBC installations and race the 1/4
mile.

Somewhere I recall a Vega club with the desireable one being the
Coswoth headed edition.

I have seen other cars with that balnce weith off the trans, but I
forgot where.

Visitor stirs resident, by recalling bad memories!

Carl–
Carl Hutchins 1983 Jaguar XJ6 with LT1 and 1994 Jeep Grand
Walnut Creek, California, United States
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In reply to a message from Wiggles sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

Ok Wiggy,
My wife had a nice green Vega when we got married. Bad reputation,
but it was ok. It started and ran, was economical. But we sold her
baby and bought a new Scirroco. The damn VW used more freakin oil
than the Vega did!

600 mi/qt. and no it wasn’t a 2 stroke.
Every once in a blue moon I see a Vega. One never sees an old Fiat.

Mike - Gas Tax? You’re killing me. Cigs are $10 a pack in NYC, lets
see if that experiment works & gets people to quit before we give
the Fed’s more money to spend.
Dave–
1969 BRG OTS
Skaneateles, NY, United States
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