[E-Type] Why America can't get small, efficient cars

E-Type
21

In reply to a message from Nick K. sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

Say what? Americans CAN get small fuel efficient cars. My VW
Jetta Diesel gets 50 MPG on the highway, 36 overeall, and it’s a
sttaion wagon. VW is bringing in the new version that’s quicker
and gets even better mileage. You can get a Smart Car here, though
it’s not so fuel efficient. My son’s 1990 Honda Civic got 35 MPG
and it was one of the most popular cars back then. The new Civic,
Hybrid or not, is available with high mileage too. Toyota has
eaten the belly out of GM sales figures by selling – guess what?
small, efficient cars to Americans.

American carmakers have made small, fuel efficient cars, but made
them crappy in order to push people up to bigger more profitable
units. I think GM and the other carmakers are getting there, they
are making much better cars recently – but is it too late?

Nick, surely you are not saying to leave everyone $100 richer and
just let them build the highways they want to? There are some
things only the government can do, and I think this is one of
them.

FWIW, California just recently voted bonds to start building a
bullet train between San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Sacramento (I
think).

Mandates are the only way in many cases. If it were not for the
CAFE mandates back in the '70s, we’d have no US carmakers to deal
with. It did a little to force these dinosaurs into the light, a
little. Remember what the air and water used to be like in cities
in the late '60s? It’s only because of the mandates they are
really pretty nice now. And guess what? The cars are better then
ever, and way fewer people die on the highways. You don’t like
that? How’s that Mississippi River water tasting these days ; -)

Jerry–
Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
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22

Ye Jerry, but the thing is…
In Europe, 50 MPG is NOT uncommon. 80 and sometimes 90 are possible (the Smart car for example). That si what we need here…
LLoyd

He tried to impress her. He was courteous and surprised her. But he knew the relationship was doomed when she tasted his home made asparagus-beet soup and made the same noise as a cat with a fur ball.----- Original Message -----
From: “mouton” jerry@moutons.org
To: e-type@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 1:20:54 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [E-Type] Why America can’t get small, efficient cars

In reply to a message from Nick K. sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

Say what? Americans CAN get small fuel efficient cars. My VW
Jetta Diesel gets 50 MPG on the highway, 36 overeall, and it’s a
sttaion wagon. VW is bringing in the…

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23

In reply to a message from soothsayer1@comcast.net sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

Yeah.,.if we’d actually gotten the smartcar: what we got, and why I
declined my reservation of one, is the '‘not-so’'smartcar, with the
non-turbo’ed Mitsi engine…and it’s sloooow! And, it’s not that
good, mileage-wise.–
The original message included these comments:

In Europe, 50 MPG is NOT uncommon. 80 and sometimes 90 are possible (the Smart car for example). That si what we need here…

–
Paul Wigton, steward to a '60 DKW 1000 SP, Tweety, '63 FHC!
Keenesburg, CO, United States
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24

In reply to a message from David Ahlers sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

My $.02? I blame marketing and advertising. Let’s face it, the
American buying public is gullible as hell and with all of the car
companies cramming 24/7 advertising down our throats it is no
wonder that so many people think they have to drive a big, honking,
whatever that the car companies make a big margin on.

Advertising - now there is an industry that screams for regulation,
for this and not to mention the misinformation and deception that
they use. Has anyone ever gotten any benefit from any of
those ‘‘male enhancement’’ products?? What a crock!! And besides,
that is what my E-Type is for :slight_smile: (ObJagCon).–
Jim Horvath, '67 OTS, 1E13653
San Jose/CA, United States
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25

In reply to a message from Jim Horvath sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

‘‘Has anyone ever gotten any benefit from any of
those ‘‘male enhancement’’ products?? What a crock!!’’

Well, CRAP! I sure wished you’d spoken up, BEFORE last week!

Now, my winkie is…never mind.

:):):)–
Paul Wigton, steward to a '60 DKW 1000 SP, Tweety, '63 FHC!
Keenesburg, CO, United States
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26

In reply to a message from soothsayer1@comcast.net sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

Lloyd,

Right, and you can get 50 MPG cars here – if you want them. Many
Americans don’t want them, apparently.

Jerry–
Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
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27

Jerry, I grew up on the Muddy Miss. A person could almost walk on it then, I can’t quite imagine what it’s like now.
Larry— On Mon, 2/9/09, mouton jerry@moutons.org wrote:

From: mouton jerry@moutons.org
Subject: Re: [E-Type] Why America can’t get small, efficient cars
To: e-type@jag-lovers.org
Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 1:20 PM
In reply to a message from Nick K. sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

Say what? Americans CAN get small fuel efficient cars. My
VW
Jetta Diesel gets 50 MPG on the highway, 36 overeall, and
it’s a
sttaion wagon. VW is bringing in the new version
that’s quicker
and gets even better mileage. You can get a Smart Car
here, though
it’s not so fuel efficient. My son’s 1990 Honda
Civic got 35 MPG
and it was one of the most popular cars back then. The new
Civic,
Hybrid or not, is available with high mileage too. Toyota
has
eaten the belly out of GM sales figures by selling – guess
what?
small, efficient cars to Americans.

American carmakers have made small, fuel efficient cars,
but made
them crappy in order to push people up to bigger more
profitable
units. I think GM and the other carmakers are getting
there, they
are making much better cars recently – but is it too late?

Nick, surely you are not saying to leave everyone $100
richer and
just let them build the highways they want to? There are
some
things only the government can do, and I think this is one
of
them.

FWIW, California just recently voted bonds to start
building a
bullet train between San Francisco, Los Angeles, and
Sacramento (I
think).

Mandates are the only way in many cases. If it were not
for the
CAFE mandates back in the '70s, we’d have no US
carmakers to deal
with. It did a little to force these dinosaurs into the
light, a
little. Remember what the air and water used to be like in
cities
in the late '60s? It’s only because of the
mandates they are
really pretty nice now. And guess what? The cars are
better then
ever, and way fewer people die on the highways. You
don’t like
that? How’s that Mississippi River water tasting these
days ; -)

Jerry

Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
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[forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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28

In reply to a message from mouton sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

The ‘‘little’’ cars were built as ‘‘economy’’ cars. That is cheap to
build, cheap to sell and get good gas mileage. That the Falcons,
Pintos Ramblers and Vegas did, some better some not so good.

I now recall seeing an interesting use at the former chevrolet
dealer’s lot. Once a year they held an informal car show on the
used car lot. All the stock was moved out ad people brought
their ‘‘babie’’. all GM of course. But, an occasional:stray’’ got in.
An old timer built a Vega powered Speedster, twenties style. Very
ingenius. TT frame upside down and backwards. Transaxle up front
with Vega egine. A Paso type body and 21 or 30 inch solid wheels.

The little Vega just purred. It came in on it’s own power, no
trailer queen.

yeah, ths ‘‘glorified golf carts’’ woud make fine mail delivery
vehicles. We see a few of them at the Rossmoor shopping Center.

Carl

Carl–
The original message included these comments:

Right, and you can get 50 MPG cars here – if you want them. Many
Americans don’t want them, apparently.

–
Carl Hutchins 1983 Jaguar XJ6 with LT1 and 1994 Jeep Grand
Walnut Creek, California, United States
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29

In reply to a message from mouton sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

Right, Jerry…TWO petrol-engined cars rated at 50 MPG.

Let’s say it’s THRRE, with the new Golf…were the US to
allow the cool stuff Yurrup gets we’d have a LOT more to
choose from. the Polo gets 70 MPG, many Renault diesels get
the same, the smart smartcar diesel gets like 80 mpg.

Remember what you buddy Friedman wants? Free trade? Where’s
that now?

Sorry, but although you are mostly correct, vis-a-vis
'Murricans staying away from high MPG cars in droves, were
there MORE freedom of choice, there might be more purchases.
I know I would!

Paul (who clocks 425 mi/week commuting) Wiggs–
The original message included these comments:

Right, and you can get 50 MPG cars here – if you want them. Many
Americans don’t want them, apparently.

–
Paul Wigton, steward to a '60 DKW 1000 SP, Tweety, '63 FHC!
Keenesburg, CO, United States
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30

In reply to a message from JOHN KOHLER sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

Larry,

I grew up in New Orleans (Metairie actually). With the refineries
and chemical plants, you’d expect varnish, but actually the
drinking water was darn good. I don’t know why.

But nearly all US water is incredibly improved in quality since the
clean water act’s ‘‘mandates’’.

Jerry–
Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
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31

Jerry, Thankfully, that is generally true. However, the true test of the purity of water is whether or not the average person can walk on it :smiley:
Larry— On Mon, 2/9/09, mouton jerry@moutons.org wrote:

From: mouton jerry@moutons.org
Subject: Re: [E-Type] Why America can’t get small, efficient cars
To: e-type@jag-lovers.org
Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 3:26 PM
In reply to a message from JOHN KOHLER sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

Larry,

I grew up in New Orleans (Metairie actually). With the
refineries
and chemical plants, you’d expect varnish, but actually
the
drinking water was darn good. I don’t know why.

But nearly all US water is incredibly improved in quality
since the
clean water act’s ‘‘mandates’’.

Jerry

Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
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[forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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32

In reply to a message from beanmf sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

Like most things it is a amalgamation of problems. Both Ford
and GM have European subsidiaries that make first class
small economical cars with all the electrical bells and
whistles people want.

The problem is that they are designed to meet European local
market crash and smog regulations and not USA crash and smog
and to meet crash standards vehicles have to be designed a
certain way and then they have to be tested.

When I last spoke to the DOT in DC about 12 years ago the
projected cost of a single crash test was between 300,000
and 500,000 for that market model year and that cost has to
be recovered before any changes can be made to the car or
the regulations are changed so you had better know how many
you can sell.

The EPA costs are also really expensive and cover much more
than sticking a sniffer up the tailpipe. One of the reasons
we have so many automatics is that the car companies can
control the shift points and hence the emissions from the
vehicle.

This is one of the reasons we dont have MG or TVR over here
it was just too expensive. Jaguar had little choice as the
bulk of Jags are sold here and so the bodyshells are
designed to meet the harshest standard which was the USA.

Its not hard to see why the Detroit boys are stuck between a
rock and a hard place. Obviously the specs can be met by
European cars as a number of manufacturers do it but it goes
back to the drawing board.

With all due respect to Detroit there are a number of good
small cars made in this country and as long as they dont get
diverted into electric wonderland they will do alright.

Alex P–
alex paterson
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33

In reply to a message from mouton sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

I agree with Lutz on this one Jerry-tax gasoline, get prices up to
what the Brits are paying, and we’ll see plenty of demand for them,

Mike Moore–
The original message included these comments:

Lloyd,
Right, and you can get 50 MPG cars here – if you want them. Many
Americans don’t want them, apparently.
Jerry

–
Mike Moore 63 O2S
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34

I’ll willingly support a fuel tax (even though I’d never trust the Feds
to do anything other than squander the revenue they’d get from it) but
ONLY after a stiff - and I mean VERY stiff - tax on the cause of the
problem.

So once a breeding tax (how about maybe a lifetime $10k/annum tax on
then first child and then doubling it for each subsequent child - jail
time on a work program if you can’t/won’t/don’t make the payments) is
imposed and rigidly enforced, then I’ll cough up for the fuel tax.

We had Pelosi in CA a few days ago - she was emphatic that there is a
“food shortage” - seems like this would be another tax opportunity, just
like with fuel. A tax on food would tend to stop people wasting it, so
more for those who need it. Oh dear, maybe those who need it won’t be
able to pay the tax… That’s one of those little, annoying things
about tax - its always OK as long as “the other guy” is getting hit by
it… Same way with other restrictions - provided THEY doesn’t drive
the vehicle I don’t like and my choices are left free, its always
“OK”…

John (when they make me Dictator, you are ALL in trouble… Which
causes me to recall “The World Domination League” led by Pete and Dud
and the never seen Spotty Muldoon - not Brit car but at least Brit
humour, for those old enough to remember)______________________________________________________
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35

In reply to a message from alex paterson sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

Alex,

That’s really the question. If VW can meet US specifications –
why can’t GM? The costs must be just as high or even higher
because they don’t have an ‘‘in’’ with the political system being
foreign companies. So there’s absolutely no excuse for the US
companies on this point.

I believe GM could if they wanted to, but short term financial
considerations made them decide against except in a very few
cases. Long term? Well here we are.

Mike, I’m in agreement with you on the taxes, but it will never
happen.

Jerry–
The original message included these comments:

Its not hard to see why the Detroit boys are stuck between a
rock and a hard place. Obviously the specs can be met by
European cars as a number of manufacturers do it but it goes
back to the drawing board.

–
Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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36

In reply to a message from mouton sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

Jerry GM and Ford do meet US specs, they do it with the cars
they make here, and to meet those specs requires starting on
the drawing board. In other words they have to come to a
conclusion that they have to do this.

VW have already reached that conclusion since WW2 and so the
elements to meet the US market are designed into the VW at
the drawing board stage. GM and Ford have yet to think that
way after all the subsidiaries abroad were there to supply
the local market not export to the US so the designs from
the drawing board reflect that.

This makes it difficult for them to suddenly lift something
from europe and bring it over here although if I was them I
work like hell at it.

Alex P–
alex paterson
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37

In reply to a message from alex paterson sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

Alex,

Ford already brought in the Fiesta and Mondeo as a worldwide
design. GM brings the G6(?) from Holden in Australia. They know
how to do it, they do it already, they just choose not to bring
their good cars (Except for that Pontiac) over. As you say, they
have yet to think that way, and that’s the problem. Nothing at all
keeping them from doing it except their own stupidity.

I rememeber when Ford brought over the Sierra (German Ford) as the
XR4Ti, The Sierra was a superb car – I owned one in Italy. The
XR4Ti substituted the Pinto engine and running gear for the
wonderful Sierra stuff. Result, guess what? Americans wouldn’t
buy it! Proof that Ford was right! (NOT!!) Nope, no excuse at
all.

I do think they have started to get their act together, and maybe
Ford will make it and do good work in the future – as they have
from time to time in the past. But maybe not!

Bean counters are not car makers.

Jerry–
Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
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38

In reply to a message from Wiggles sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

Lord help us when you get Tweets on the road Mr Wiggly! A few weeks
commuting in the E-type will see last sliver of ice slip quietly
into the sea from the lush Greenland pampas :slight_smile:

Pete–
The original message included these comments:

Paul (who clocks 425 mi/week commuting) Wiggs

–
68 E-type OTS, 96 X300 XJ12, 94 XJR 5-speed manual
Cambridge, United Kingdom
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39

“GM brings the G6(?) from Holden in Australia. They know how to do it,
they do it already, they just choose not to bring their good cars
(Except for that Pontiac) over.”

Jerry, hard to agree with you unless you disagree with all the motoring
magazines that the Astra is one of the best “premium” small cars in
Europe - its been here for a while and American purchasers are staying
away in droves. The Solstice has been produced in Opel and Vauxhall
versions and reputedly is a great car (if only SWMBO would go for that
instead of the Teutonic offerings with which she is so besotted). GM has
brought in small cars like the Daewoos (a GM company) and years ago, had
the Chevette - though the US market missed my personal favourite, the
HSR but I doubt it could ever have been made to meet US regulations and
was probably too much of a “niche” product to be viable here. When Ford
had a relationship with Kia, they brought in the Festiva, and the Geo
Metro was hardly “large”, so the cars have been made available here.

Recently, Ford has brought the “mini-Volvo”, again an excellent
“upmarket” small car but also apparently unloved once it hit US shores.

But why all the beating on the “big 3” (though they are not so big any
more) - there are other companies that make cars in the USA that have
not brought in their “small cars” - Toyota and Honda come immediately to
mind - they and the rest of the Japanese manufacturers - Daihatsu,
Nissan, Subaru, Suzuki, Mazda, all make small and very efficient (high
mpg) vehicles (Kei cars, amongst others), some of which are actually fun
but if there is such a burgeoning market here for small cars, why are
they not meeting the need? Perhaps they have the same problems as the
“big 3” in getting them to meet US crash and other regulations or they
don’t believe the market would take them in sufficient quantities to
make it worth their while. An excellent example, the CRX was (and still
is) a great car but didn’t sell in large volumes and all Hondas
available in the US are now much larger than that used to be.

Somehow I really don’t think the executives of the big car companies are
sitting around the board room making statements like “Well, we could
bring over the XXXX or YYY and sell a gazillion of them and increase our
EBIT dramatically, but I’d just prefer to p_ss off the people who want
to purchase them, so let’s not do it!”.

John (who grew up with cars that had no problem getting well over 30mpg,
even on a really bad day - Minis and Minors, A30s/35s/40s, Sprites and
Midgets, Imps and Chamois, Austin, Ford and Standard 8s and 10s,
Prefects and Anglias, Heralds and Spitfires, even my old Atlas
van…and my MkC Bond could get into the 50s!)______________________________________________________
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40

In reply to a message from Duhig, John F sent Tue 10 Feb 2009:

I don’t understand that either. But I guess a lot of it is based
on past experience. Wasn’t it around 77 or 78 when everybody was
downsizing their offerings to be more efficient in both vehicle
packaging and fuel economy when some ford executive stated ford
would still be ‘‘the home of the whopper’’.

As I stated earlier, I believe most in the US just won’t buy a
small car when they can have a larger car for just a bit more money
and a bit less gas mileage. That explains why the Ford F-150 was
the world’s best selling vehicle for years while the smaller, more
efficient Ford Ranger was almost cancelled.–
The original message included these comments:

But why all the beating on the ‘‘big 3’’ (though they are not so big any
more) - there are other companies that make cars in the USA that have
not brought in their ‘‘small cars’’ - Toyota and Honda come immediately to
mind - they and the rest of the Japanese manufacturers - Daihatsu,
Nissan, Subaru, Suzuki, Mazda, all make small and very efficient (high
mpg) vehicles (Kei cars, amongst others), some of which are actually fun
but if there is such a burgeoning market here for small cars, why are
they not meeting the need? Perhaps they have the same problems as the
‘‘big 3’’ in getting them to meet US crash and other regulations or they
don’t believe the market would take them in sufficient quantities to
make it worth their while. An excellent example, the CRX was (and still

–
John Walker, 1969 2+2 - ‘Lola’
La Porte, Tex, United States
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