[E-Type] Why America can't get small, efficient cars

[vrooomie]

In reply to a message from Duhig, John F sent Tue 10 Feb 2009:

‘‘The Solstice has been produced in Opel and Vauxhall
versions and reputedly is a great car (if only SWMBO would go for
that instead of the Teutonic offerings with which she is so
besotted).’’

Interesting and telling statement! Now, I like the Vauxhall-based
Solstice/Sky, but an economy car, it ain’t! Best it’s rated at,
IIRC, is about 25 MPG, hiway. Frankly, the 4-banger is not very
fast, either. Fun to drive, interesting…but (at least as
delivered here) not an enthusiast’s car. It’s -Gawd help me!- a
chick car.

More importantly, your statement is indicative of the problem GM
faces…SWMBO’s ‘‘besotted’’ with German cars over GM…why?

Image, image, image. I would guess that SWMBO thinks of the
Solstice as ‘‘American,’’ and so maybe less than presitigious, unlike
the Porker and the Beemer (…there’s a country song in there,
somewhere…) which have, deserved or not, an image GM is unlikely
EVER to match.

And, they had the chance to match it…but chose not to, for all the
reasons you mentiuon, plus a hot of others.–
The original message included these comments:

‘‘GM brings the G6(?) from Holden in Australia. They know how to do it,
they do it already, they just choose not to bring their good cars
(Except for that Pontiac) over.’’
Somehow I really don’t think the executives of the big car companies are
sitting around the board room making statements like ‘‘Well, we could
bring over the XXXX or YYY and sell a gazillion of them and increase our
EBIT dramatically, but I’d just prefer to p_ss off the people who want
to purchase them, so let’s not do it!’’.

–
Paul Wigton, steward to a '60 DKW 1000 SP, Tweety, '63 FHC!
Keenesburg, CO, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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[Ray_Livingston]

In reply to a message from Wiggles sent Tue 10 Feb 2009:

I expect there are many Americans who’ve had the same experiences I
have, going back to childhood - American cars, while they have
improved, are still, in general, not as well built as many foreign
cars. I’ve driven tons of Detroit iron, and owned a few. They’ve
all been disappointing in material quality, fit, finish, and
longevity. I have an 8 year old BMW that still looks and runs like
new, at 130K miles. The last American car I had the misfortune of
owning (came with my wife…) was a basket case at 60K miles, and
spent more time at the dealer than in our driveway. My experience
with warranty service is even worse. I’ve helped 3 friends do
battle with GM to get them new engines, when the dealer
stonewalled, even on well-known manufacturing defects. I will
NEVER buy a GM product for that reason alone.
It’s not just Detroit, however. I’ll never buy another VW/Audi for
the same reasons (quality, not dealer service - dealer service has
generally been good, if not excellent). If I’m going to drop $20-
30K for a car, it’s going to be something that will last, even if
that means spending an extra $5K to get it.–
Ray Livingston - '64 OTS Santa Cruz, CA
Santa Cruz, CA, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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[mouton (Jerry Mouton)]

In reply to a message from Duhig, John F sent Tue 10 Feb 2009:

John,

The Astra gets 27 MPG overall – not much to call it exceptional
here, check the comparable Japanese offerings. And edmunds.com
review says ‘‘Kiss my Astra? Not so much…’’ ; -). Sky, I don’t
see any mention of it originating from Opel – sure it didn’t go
the other way? It gets 22 MPG and is reputedly a not so bad car –
edmunds.com says

‘‘The reliability issues looming overhead, however, should make
potential roadster buyers pause to consider the nearly bulletproof
and well-established Mazda Miata.’’

Kind of what we have come to expect from US makers, as Ray says.
As in so many cases, US makers make cars that are a little cheaper
and a lot less valuable.

And in general you are agreeing with me – my point is that US
makers could bring over better cars, but they don’t. I agree there
is no burgeoning demand here for high mileage cars, because
gasoline is so cheap here. But that could change again soon!

Jerry–
Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
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[mouton (Jerry Mouton)]

In reply to a message from Duhig, John F sent Tue 10 Feb 2009:

John,

I suspect the boardroom talk is more like ‘‘We could bring over the
XXX, but it would only make us $YYY and it would take 5 years to
get there. We can make that much by doing a big ad campaign for
the Humper, and that would cost us a lot less. Let’s go for the
Humper!’’

Jerry–
The original message included these comments:

Somehow I really don’t think the executives of the big car companies are
sitting around the board room making statements like ‘‘Well, we could
bring over the XXXX or YYY and sell a gazillion of them and increase our
EBIT dramatically, but I’d just prefer to p_ss off the people who want
to purchase them, so let’s not do it!’’.

–
Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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[chuck_goolsbee]

Jerry GM and Ford do meet US specs, they do it with the cars
they make here, and to meet those specs requires starting on
the drawing board.

Then why can’t I buy a domestic, Diesel-powered car that gets 50 MPG?

I own a 2002 VW Jetta TDI, which DOES get 50 MPG.

I’d LOVE to buy another Diesel car to replace it, but my choices right now
are limited to another VW, or one model each of BMW & M-B.

What I’d REALLY like is a MINI-D, or even better, an Alfa Romeo Spider
JTDM. =)

But like I said originally the bozos in Detroit think I don’t want a small
car with a stick shift; and some bureaucrats in Sacramento (capital of a
state I don’t even live in!) prevent all of us from using Diesel power.

–chuck goolsbee
65ots, 1E10715
arlington, wa, usa
http://chuck.goolsbee.orgOn Mon, 9 Feb 2009 19:58:50 -0800, alex paterson wrote:

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[vrooomie]

In reply to a message from chuck goolsbee sent Tue 10 Feb 2009:

And there, my fine diesel-feathered friend, is the rub.

‘’…some bureaucrats in Sacramento…prevent all of us from using
Diesel power.‘’

CARB has long WAAAAAY overstepped its bounds, in this regard.–
The original message included these comments:

Then why can’t I buy a domestic, Diesel-powered car that gets 50 MPG?

–
Paul Wigton, steward to a '60 DKW 1000 SP, Tweety, '63 FHC!
Keenesburg, CO, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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[chuck_goolsbee]

‘’…some bureaucrats in Sacramento…prevent all of us from using
Diesel power.‘’

CARB has long WAAAAAY overstepped its bounds, in this regard.

Indeed… given the percentage of Diesel CARS on the road in the USA, which
I have to guess is somewhere UNDER 0.1%, and likely even at their peak in
the 80s represented maybe 0.9%! YET, they have never touched Diesel in
(Trucks, Trains, Ships, Agriculture, power generation, etc.) where it
accounts for more than 99%. What good have they done to eliminate such a
tiny percentage?

Other than rob us of fuel economy and increase our dependance on foreign
oil?

Besides, CARB’s main thing against Diesel is particulates (soot) which in a
wet environment like where I live (rain mixed with snow outside my window
as I type) soot is moot.

–chuck goolsbee
65ots, 1E10715
arlington, wa, usa
http://chuck.goolsbee.orgOn Tue, 10 Feb 2009 11:57:13 -0800, Wiggles wrote:

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[vrooomie]

In reply to a message from chuck goolsbee sent Tue 10 Feb 2009:

You did that on purpose, dintcha?
You wrote that WHOOOLE long diatribe, just so you could write…

‘‘soot is moot.’’

Yer a genius, I’m tellin’ ya…;):):)–
The original message included these comments:

Besides, CARB’s main thing against Diesel is particulates (soot) which in a
wet environment like where I live (rain mixed with snow outside my window
as I type) soot is moot.

–
Paul Wigton, steward to a '60 DKW 1000 SP, Tweety, '63 FHC!
Keenesburg, CO, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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[mouton (Jerry Mouton)]

In reply to a message from John Walker sent Tue 10 Feb 2009:

John,

I agree, ‘‘most’’ in the US won’t buy any one thing – people buy
different things. Even the Ford 150 is a small part of the overall
market.

And that’s why the Big 3 get hit so much. Back in the '70s they
said ‘‘We can’t possibly bring our CAFE to 25 MPG! You’ll ruin us
and the American car buying public!’’ just like today.

Then Honda, Toyota, and Nissan built a whole lot of small fuel
efficiant cars that the US ‘‘didn’t want to buy’’, and sold a whole
heck of a lot of them to the US, ending up with Toyota edging out
GM in car sales. If GM had just shut up and got to work and built
a US-built Corolla-beater back then, they would have kept Japan
more out of the market, they would have sold us all those cars that
Toyota sold us, and they would be extremely successful today. Note
that this does not mean killing the F150s or the SUVs, just
providing a world-beater efficient high quality car as one part of
the range. It would have taken some foresight and some long term
thinking, and accountants don;t generally excel at that, and so we
and the Big 3 are where we/they are.

Jerry–
The original message included these comments:

As I stated earlier, I believe most in the US just won’t buy a
small car when they can have a larger car for just a bit more money
and a bit less gas mileage. That explains why the Ford F-150 was
the world’s best selling vehicle for years while the smaller, more
efficient Ford Ranger was almost cancelled.

–
Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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[alex_paterson]

In reply to a message from chuck goolsbee sent Tue 10 Feb 2009:

Yes the emphasis on diesels is soot reduction. A significant
number (40 to 50%) of refrigerated transport units will be
made illegal because they dont meet the new standards and
there is no grandfather clause.

In a similar manner truckers are prevented from idling
trucks to stay warm or air con their cabs while they sleep.
Even the investment in a small diesel aux power unit is now
no longer any good. Even the $10k ones dont meet the
requirements of CARB and so it illegal to use them.

The simple answer of course is to buy a dog. For $50 from
the pound you can idle all you want because although its
legal to allow the trucker to fry or freeze its not legal to
let a dog do this.

Alex P–
alex paterson
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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[406 (John Duhig)]

In response to Paul:

If the Solstice is such crap and a “chick car”, one wonders why it has
done so well in SCCA racing against some quite presentable machinery.
The MX5 is probably the most chided of any vehicle for being a
“secretary” or “chick” car, yet I understand that Mazda’s claims that
more of them are raced in the USA than any other vehicle are correct.
Watching the Run Offs on Speed Channel over the last couple of weeks
indicated that they can be a serious weapon in skilled hands!

“your statement is indicative of the problem GM faces…SWMBO’s
‘‘besotted’’ with German cars over GM…why?”

Paul, remember that your SWMBO is very different from my SWMBO - this
isn’t a “GM problem”, it is an “every other marque with the exception of
the BMW, Porch (love spelling it like that…), BMW and I think AM”. This
is the “badge effect” and fully understood by the manufactures> When her
abolute-worst-car-ever-made-falling-apart-while-you-looked-at-it-POS BMW
was putting our marriage in jeopardy and she contacted the BMW West
Coast representative, he told her, and I’m not kidding, that she should
understand that she was “Driving the Badge”!!! She refused to let
me respond the way I REALLY wanted… The other comment she received
was “Sometimes perfect parents have imperfect children” - the shear
arrogance would have prevented me from EVER doing business with them
again but SWMBO insisted on having another one when even she gave up on
the original POS (well, it had done nearly 30k miles by then and was due
for yet one more auto transmission, replacing the whole electronic dash,
fixing the…I think you get the message…).

But for her it is cultural (and ethnic) - it is apparently for reasons
that I cannot understand, “necessary” to have a prestigious vehicle so
people can see that you have $ (or whatever the local currency is)
irrespective of whether you are living on bread and water to keep the
damn thing on the road. Example - we had “in-laws” over the New Year
period and SWMBO’s mother asked her NOT to use my ancient (and reliable,
comfortable, etc., etc.,) Chevy wagon to pick her up at the airport, as
she was flying in with a friend and didn’t want the friend to see SWMBO
driving my car!!! Of course, SWMBO’s BMW couldn’t take all the luggage,
so the wagon ruled.

SWMBO is quite prepared to concede that most Japanese cars and many
American are streets ahead of the “prestige” marques (these days not
difficult I admit) in terms of quality and reliability, that they are
more economical, much cheaper to run, etc., etc., but it is ALL ABOUT
THE BADGE. I remain staggered that people will put up with much greater
unreliability, maintenance costs, problems, etc., from expensive cars
when they’d never stop complaining if it happened with a “cheap” car.

John (who actually really liked one German car - Opel Diplomat, or was
it Commodore, Coupe, that he had for a while as a company car…)______________________________________________________
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[John_Walker (69 FHC. . . $ via PayPal)]

In reply to a message from Duhig, John F sent Tue 10 Feb 2009:

On the flip side my son used to not like it when I picked him up at
grade scool and Jr. High in the E-type. He disliked the attention
both the car and by default, he, attracted. He is 18 and Ok with
it now.–
The original message included these comments:

But for her it is cultural (and ethnic) - it is apparently for reasons
that I cannot understand, ‘‘necessary’’ to have a prestigious vehicle so
people can see that you have $ (or whatever the local currency is)
irrespective of whether you are living on bread and water to keep the
damn thing on the road. Example - we had ‘‘in-laws’’ over the New Year
period and SWMBO’s mother asked her NOT to use my ancient (and reliable,
comfortable, etc., etc.,) Chevy wagon to pick her up at the airport, as
she was flying in with a friend and didn’t want the friend to see SWMBO
driving my car!!! Of course, SWMBO’s BMW couldn’t take all the luggage,
so the wagon ruled.

–
John Walker, 1969 2+2 - ‘Lola’
La Porte, Tex, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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[vrooomie]

In reply to a message from Duhig, John F sent Tue 10 Feb 2009:

Never said it was a ‘crap’ car, JD, just that it doesn’t get great
mileage.

Also, being a ‘chick car’ has bupkus to do with a car’s racing
potential! The original Dodge Neon was a ‘chick car,’ and it
whupped arse in SCCA. Ditto with the Miata.

‘‘ALL ABOUT THE BADGE’’…equals image, JD! I stand by my statement.

‘‘Example - we had ‘‘in-laws’’ over…and SWMBO’s mother asked her NOT
to use my ancient (and reliable, comfortable, etc., etc.,) Chevy
wagon to pick her up at the airport, as she was flying in with a
friend and didn’t want the friend to see SWMBO driving my car!!!’’

With all due respect to your in-laws and SWMBO, that is a general
psychosis (not limited to yer rellies!) that I simply cannot
fathom, nor suffer gatefully. My SWMBO is a little like that…and
she knows it ain’t where to go!..LOL!!–
Paul Wigton, steward to a '60 DKW 1000 SP, Tweety, '63 FHC!
Keenesburg, CO, United States
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[LeRoy_Murray]

In reply to a message from Bruce Robillard sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

First of all none of those things are any of Big Brother’s or Big
Momma’s, or the Nanny’s (call it what you want), business. Period.
Some of us have to drive trucks, or vans, some of us just like big
cars, this is America after all, not Amerika…
To quote Merle Haggard…oh yeah, I can’t here, can I?

Lee Murray–
The original message included these comments:

Our politicians do not even have the testicular fortitude
to switch to digital tv, much less require a world-useful
cellphone standard, allow importation of efficient cars that
get crushed under Bubba’s maxi-SUV, or raise gas
prices to levels that would actually change America’s buying
and commuting habits. Give us gas and Suburbans and fiddle
away, boys…

–
Lee Murray '95 XJS 4.0 Convertible 2+2, and '96 XJ6
Sherburne, NY, United States
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[LeRoy_Murray]

In reply to a message from beanmf sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

100%???!!! Are you insane? That’s fine for those who drive two
miles each way to work in an office. I cover most of upstate NY in
a full size van because I need it, buying my own gas, not so hot
for me. Better idea, put the commuters in their suits and wingtips
on bicycles, save a lot of gas that way, for those of us that need
it.
Six months ago may not have been catastrophic for you, but then you
probably aren’t putting on 2-300 miles a day and buying your own
gas. It was definitly catastrophic, or darn close, for some of us.
As for the Nat. Debt, screw it, I’ll be dead in 40 years, and
Global Warming is a giant scam.

Lee Murray–
The original message included these comments:

What if the Federal Govt simply popped a 100% sales tax on
gasoline? At 390 million gallons a day, that would be about 0.8
addition, cars would become more efficient, our towns would begin
to reorganize to become more fuel efficient, greenhouse gases would
Sure, the price of everything would go up, just like it did six
months ago. It wasn’t catastrophic. What’s the catch?

–
Lee Murray '95 XJS 4.0 Convertible 2+2, and '96 XJ6
Sherburne, NY, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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[LeRoy_Murray]

In reply to a message from Nick K. sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:

I’m not sure they can have mine, even then, maybe if they’ll pay
market value, but that’ll never happen. Had an amnesty turn in in
Syracuse recently, paid a wopping 200. per.

Lee Murray–
The original message included these comments:

I view this issue much the same as gun ownership. You can have my
guns once I see the last cop hand over his/her gun. I’m not coming
from a selfish point of view, but what’s good for the goose is good
for the gander and I for one am sick of being pushed to the front
of the line.

–
Lee Murray '95 XJS 4.0 Convertible 2+2, and '96 XJ6
Sherburne, NY, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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[mouton (Jerry Mouton)]

In reply to a message from LeRoy Murray sent Thu 12 Feb 2009:

Lee,

I feel your pain, that’s a costly way to work. Only thing is,
gasoline got to $4 a gallon without these extra taxes, and it will
go up there and higher again before very long at all. You are
going to have to deal with it somehow. Having the price of
gasoline kept high will help you to have an alternate solution when
gas prices make your job unsupportable using gasoline. We had
better start figuring it out now, tomorrow will be too late.

There’s nobody to ‘‘put commuters on bicycles’’, this is America!
The best way to get things the way you want is using the free
market, and keeping those gas prices high will definitely keep more
of those city commuters on bicycles.

In any case we all need to think about what to do when gasoline
reaches $5 a gallon.

Dead in 40 years, eh? No kids, I hear you say, and to hell with
my kids. Sorry I can’t go along with you on that.

Global warming? Just who was it who scammed New Orleans and
Houston with Katrina and Ike? Scammed the Australians with the
horrendous drought and the fires? Who scammed the west of the
country with the droughts we are having to deal with? Who scammed
all the Alaskans who are having to deal with the melting of their
ice sheet and permafrost? Who scammed the glaciers off of
mountains all over the world?

Just look at the evidence and the opinion of people who look at
these things carefully. Only people who think it’s a scam are
those who don’t look at what is happening, who want to wish it away
and don’t care what happens to our kids or our country. Even G W
Bush has been finally convinced.

YMMV, of course.

Jerry–
Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
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[mouton (Jerry Mouton)]

In reply to a message from LeRoy Murray sent Thu 12 Feb 2009:

Lee,

Sure, we love Merle around here.

And you’re right, you can drive what you like. You just have to
pay the full cost rather than putting it off onto the rest of us.
We’ve already had welfare reform. Pay your share, pull your
weight. Then drive any old thing you like.

Jerry–
The original message included these comments:

In reply to a message from Bruce Robillard sent Mon 9 Feb 2009:
First of all none of those things are any of Big Brother’s or Big
Momma’s, or the Nanny’s (call it what you want), business. Period.
Some of us have to drive trucks, or vans, some of us just like big
cars, this is America after all, not Amerika…
To quote Merle Haggard…oh yeah, I can’t here, can I?

–
Jerry Mouton '64 FHC 889791 ‘MIK Jaguar’
Palo Alto, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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[John_Walker (69 FHC. . . $ via PayPal)]

In reply to a message from mouton sent Thu 12 Feb 2009:

Why would anyone want the government to engage in social
engineering by artificially inflating the price of automobile
fuel? I’m Ok with a reasonable gasoline tax devoted to the upkeep
of roads and bridges, but a tax to force social change is not
swomething I would support.

I don’t drink or smoke but I feel the same way about a tax on booze
and tobacco.

BTW, there is no ‘‘right price’’ for crude oil and fuel. The price
is what it is.–
John Walker, 1969 2+2 - ‘Lola’
La Porte, Tex, United States
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[vrooomie]

In reply to a message from LeRoy Murray sent Thu 12 Feb 2009:

‘‘Global warming is a giant scam.’’

Really, LeRoy? Care to share the peer-reviewed science, to back
that up? I’d be interested in your scientific justifications for
your blanket statement, above.

Careful…I’m harsh on this, given I am a geologist who works
with many well-respected earth systems scientists.

It also seems you have no children…

‘‘As for the Nat. Debt, screw it, I’ll be dead in 40 years…’’–
Paul Wigton, steward to a '60 DKW 1000 SP, Tweety, '63 FHC!
Keenesburg, CO, United States
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