Engine Development - Inlet Ports

You are correct. The original inlets supplied with this engine had a step in them and were made too look like the XJ13 inlets.

When I did the original analysis I wanted to see what these inlets would flow like, compared to an “optimal” design.

The results can be summarised as follows:

  1. Std Pre-HE inlet : 133 cfm (std valve - no inlet connected) 145 cfm with manifold and single2.5" throttle body per side. 2% cylinder to cylinder variation (144 - 147 cfm) more flow centre cylinder pair.

  2. Inlets as supplied to me (like XJ13) : 181 cfm (big valve ported head)

  3. “Optimal” inlets : 280 - 330 cfm depending upon allowed lift (big valve ported head)

The only difference between 2 & 3 is the inlet trumpet, butterfly and some slight detail work on the valve seat. Head ports and valve are identical.

Negative impacts of option 2 were stepped inlet and parallel walled inlet trumpet. Angled inlet to mimic twin cam head. Butterfly with fat shaft and screws sticking out. Chunky injector casting. Poor component alignment.

Option 3 used Straight inlet, constant taper, optimised inlet radius, shaft-less butterfly with refined trailing edge, refined valve seat cut. Not actually a lot different except in the details.

Given airflow is in the order of 300 ft/s (100m/s) any bump or lip has seriously negative consequences. Historic photos show the Gp 44 and TRW using tapered inlets. However many aftermarket individual throttle bodies show parallel “stacks” which look pretty (and are easier to make) but seem to be missing a trick.

I haven’t had time to scale the thinking down and size it to suit a standard port, but I suspect there is quite a bit to be gained over the standard inlet manifold, assuming you had bonnet space.

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HI Mark, this CFD stuff is getting some attention.

came across a You Tube vids, CFD Analysis , very interesting, and much more!

also of interest is the concept of direct water chamber injection ,to control many facets of an IC engine, like detonation , and control of heating issues!

and far better MPG fuel mileage, also much reduction in NOX emissions.

pic of an article about 10yrs back, quite different approach to engines!

Hi Ron,

I had a friend who fitted a water/hydrogen system to his BMW. He swore black and blue that it made a significant difference. His only method of test was timing the car up a steep hill, so not totally scientific! However, when he showed me the car, the exhaust was spotless. Totally clean. Although he used electrolysis to produce hydrogen, I always had a suspicion that is was more the water vapour that the engine was interested in.

My brother builds steam engines for a hobby. I think we have forgotten much more than we knew about how to harness the power of steam! Maybe the Navy engineers still know. My grandfathers encyclopedias have 30 pages dedicated to steam (no petrol engines back in 1880).

I always think we get a little bit arrogant when a new technology comes along. We ditch the old way in our enthusiasm to embrace the new. But we forget that often both have merits in selected applications. The smart money would be to combine the best of both.

Electric motors are great at accelerating a car, but not so good at sustaining a high speed. Turbines are probably great at sustaining a cruising speed?? I wonder when we are going to get a micro-turbine hybrid? I think they have been doing that in electric buses.

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When are we going to get a micro-turbine hybrid? About 7 years ago!

“Jaguar C-X75 is a hybrid-electric, 2-seat, concept car produced by Jaguar in partnership with Formula One team Williams F1 which debuted at the 2010 Paris Motor Show. The C-X75 concept produces 778 horsepower through four YASA electric motors, each of which drives one of the four wheels. The batteries driving these motors are recharged using two diesel-fed micro gas turbines instead of a conventional four-stroke engine.”

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I think Mark’s point was that electric motors for acceleration and turbines for steady state cruising would be the ideal approach – a turbine/electric hybrid. The C-X75 turbines only recharged the batteries, sort of like the Fisker approach. It didn’t drive the wheels directly.

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I think Mark’s point was that electric motors for acceleration and
turbines for steady state cruising would be the ideal approach – a
turbine/electric hybrid. The C-X75 turbines only recharged the
batteries, sort of like the Fisker approach. It didn’t drive the
wheels directly.

There’s no need for a mechanical drivetrain. As long as the engine drives
the generator, the electric motors serve as a drivetrain.

It can also be said that electric motors for acceleration and a small diesel
engine for steady state cruising would be an ideal approach, and I believe
VW is producing that flavor of hybrid.

What has never made sense to me is a combo of electric motors and a
gasoline engine, although I guess it makes things more familiar to some
consumers.

There is one MAJOR advantage to an all-electric car such as a Tesla:
There’s no combustion going on. Nothing is hot (although batteries and
motors do get warm). No exhaust pipe. You really could make the whole car
out of plastic if you so choose. Imagine how long rubber parts would last
with no underhood heat!

– Kirbert

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clearly there is no “need” for a mechanical drivetrain…Tesla has proven that, as has Rimac. Those companies that have used the electric/ICE hybrid with the ICE only recharging the battery are effectively only replacing battery capacity with ICE weight and complexity to obtain quicker (and more readily available) power regeneration. But I think the original point was that at steady state highway speeds, electric motors are not ideal and that some version of the ICE is better suited. IIRC, the turbine engine (at least in large scale) is almost twice as efficient as a diesel or gas reciprocating, when used for steady state application, but their efficiency drops precipitously when used for accelerating. So, electric motors for around town and turbines on the highways seems like an optimum combination, but not sure that would hold true once off the midwest plains.

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YES, i love the Micro-turbine idea, so much potential.

see You Tube microturbines.

neighbors 1967 Mustang electric, looks good goes VERY fast.

I’m not convinced the system was ever sorted out. Of the various shows that featured the C-X75 I never saw it move faster than walking pace. Can you imagine Jay Leno never ever ‘blipping the throttle’ not even for a second?

IIRC, the turbine engine (at least in large
scale) is almost twice as efficient as a diesel or gas reciprocating,
when used for steady state application, but their efficiency drops
precipitously when used for accelerating.

Gas turbines are very efficient but I doubt if they’re THAT efficient. Still, the
problem with gas turbines is that they are ONLY efficient at rated power.
Off-throttle and their efficiency drops precipitously. It’s not that their
efficiency is poor when accelerating; it’s not. It’s that to get any acceleration
at all, you have to size the thing such that it’s operating at 10% throttle 95%
of the time, where its efficiency really stinks.

Hybrid electric can help, but you’d have to size the gas turbine to operate at
nearly full power while at highway cruise. That’d mean in the range of 20-30
hp. And that, it turn, would mean a gas turbine about the size of your fist.
And I dunno if anyone has been able to get serious efficiency out of a turbine
that small, although I’m sure they could if they put their minds to it.

It’s also worth noting that this softball-sized powerplant would be cherry red
hot when running, and the exhaust would peel paint.

The two primary advantages of diesel engines are 1) they are VERY efficient
at low power, almost as efficient as at WOT, so you can size the engine
generously and give yourself a little margin for hillclimbing or whatnot. 2)
They last virtually forever, primarily because diesel fuel itself has excellent
lubricity and keeps the cylinder and valves lubricated. A diesel,
unfortunately, requires a large, heavy engine for a given power, primarily
because the flame front propagates slowly and therefore the engine cannot
run very fast before the torque curve falls off. Still, if you’re designing a
street car rather than a race car and the only performance you need is to
pass some jerk blocking traffic on a winding road, a small turbodiesel hybrid
is arguably the best combination available with existing technology.

Oh, one other thing: A turbodiesel can meet existing EPA regulations. A
turbine probably cannot, its NOx emissions would be off the charts. And
reducing its NOx emissions would reduce its efficiency.

– Kirbert

hey Ron, my dob is 2nd April 1947…where do I stand…LOL…Art…

Also, how SCCA outlawed the Audi pan-bodied, AWD cars in Trans Am. Sad!

been a while Art; quick guess is a strong personality , good at deciscion
making , altho , make sure you finish projects you start!

ron

Hi Mark,

I have been following this thread with great interest. Thank you for sharing!

Have you come to any conclusions on piston crown geometry?

I realize this might be a lot to ask but how many people have the skill set, software and interest in modelling Jag V12s, so I am going to ask anyway: Would you be willing to simulate the effect of typical performance modifications for the standard Pre-HE head and standard intake manifold? For example, what impact would larger intake valves have on flow? Maybe various 3 or even 5-angle valve seat geometries? What about port matching the head and inlet manifold ports to the standard inlet gasket diameter? Perhaps smoothing the valve guide protrusion into the inlet port?

My understanding is that the standard inlet manifolds have a limited performance potential but I am not sure exactly what that limit might be. Like you, I have a certain performance level in mind for my engine and I am wondering whether it is achievable using the standard inlet manifolds. However, my target is a bit lower than yours as I would like to achieve 500+hp using Pre-HE heads while maintaining the standard 70mm stroke and only a slight bore increase to 93mm or 93.5mm.

If the standard units are not up to the task, I believe I would look into the Group A inlet manifolds as these seem to be a direct replacement and I know of at least one vendor who is producing new units. However, port matching between the Group A units and head inlet ports would be required. My understanding is that the Group A manifolds have a gradual taper from the plenum to the end of the port much like your vertical stack inlet design only in a similar packaging format to the stock manifolds.

Best regards,
Stephen

One popular revision is to grind the crank journals a couple of mm smaller to fit standard Chevy big end bearings and conrods. And, of course, grind them offset outward a bit so you get a 2mm longer stroke while you’re at it.

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Hi Stephen,

I’ve go bogged down with work and other things.

But in general, what you ask can be done. In fact, I think it should be done in order to get some methodical thinking into all of this. I suspect there are a lot of Chinese whispers involved. Someone told me this, who told me this, who told me …

Trying to think back to what I observed previously …

Alignment of inlets and ports appears to be poor. Significant gains could be made (in the flow simulation anyway) by correctly aligning the ports, gaskets and manifold. This includes eliminating steps and gaskets that are too big. I think this is probably the first priority.

The inlet filter/trumpet appeared very restrictive (in terms of aiming for higher HP). You would want to deal to that. Also the butterfly could be increased. This both reduces the losses through the throttle body and improves the virtual connection between the two Plenum volumes (the inlet manifold and the filter body). I didn’t spend a lot of time modelling the flow through the single butterfly, because my focus was on individual throttle bodies. I did note on the individual throttles that good gains could be made by aerodynamically tapering the butterfly edges (rather than sharp edged) and minimising or eliminating the throttle shaft (and screws!). I designed a shaftless concept, using Yamaha motorbike bearing seals, which I think would work. This approach delivered similar full throttle performance to a slide throttle, but retained the beneficial turbulence at part throttle which is one of the benefits of a butterfly.

The inlet injectors protruded a LONG way into the inlet flow and appeared to significantly restrict flow. (The casting around this area was very crude). I would look to grind those down. There may be a benefit in accelerating the flow around the injector but it just looked poor. Modern injectors would do a better job, and I think are worth considering. I bought an injector flow tester to do some more investigation, but got sidetracked. LOL. Also I would try to check the casting in the plenum where the inlet tracts meet the plenum and make sure there is no flashing and crude creating a turbulent entry. Perhaps worth having it extrude honed?

The whole system showed significant benefit from a continual gradual taper. Again my focus here was on individual throttle bodies. This is probably impossible in a cast manifold, although with 3D printing should be possible in high temp plastic. About time someone came out with a 3D printed version.

Detail modelling of the valve seat had a valuable impact on the flow rates indicated. Although the actual seats that I measured and modelled were well made and well matched to the head.

There is some suggestions that wider lower angle seats increases flow at low lift and is the equivalent to longer duration cams. This did appear to be beneficial. But you would need to consider if your engine wanted more duration and what impact this might have on pressure wave tuning.

The whole system was very sensitive to exhaust pressure wave tuning. You should consider throwing out the stock exhaust manifolds. I had some theoretical numbers for tuned lengths, but this is very dependent upon everything else. It was notable that too large diameter exhausts limited the gains here. In my case, I think I was looking at 1 5/8" primaries on a 6.7L variant. For a 5.3L you might be looking at 1 3/8", as distinct from some of the larger sizes that “look better”.

My work has all been theoretical, and I have yet to prove it in the flesh. So I am totally open to any criticism “show me the proof”. Filter what I suggest through your own common sense.

However, key to my analysis has been to a) try to understand the original thinking of the designers and understanding the limitations of that design, b) try to confirm known published data where it can correlate and confirm my model accuracy, c) build an historic record for future manufacture options.

Cheers
Mark

nice to hear your back,Mark!

some things of interest here , way back 1994 i had my pre-HE inlet manifolds EXTRUDE HONED, inch measured before and after , all the way thru opened up about 1/8" ,plenums and runners, it also took out 75% of the injector bulges, and most other internal bolt bumps and humps, visual flow into the runners was smoothed in and complete internal was SMOOTH.

the cylinder heads have been Ceramic coated on the hand ported exhaust ports, the cyilnder head deck surface has been Ceramic coated to help deal with the Famous Jag overheats, (most V12s went down because of overheating). i also use 3MM oversize inlet valves lightened well shaped, the exhaust valves are 2MM oversize ,lightened and shaped, 3 angle cut seats on all! of course mani to port matched.

70MM TB plates , TB

DSCN8690 inlet body blended entrances.

factory exhaust manifolds have been ported and Ceramic coated in and out! custom 2 1/2" pipes No cats ,straight thru stratight thru! mufflers. Crane race cams USA, hi tension springs!

OK for the dreamers, the best i ever wheel dynod was 355 RWHP at 6700RPM, ( so just maybe close to 400 crank HP(maybe)>

still think a JAG V12 will have to turn around 7800/8000 revs to make an honest 500hp , on an off the corner accelleration race my torque will be ahead, or away from a standstill drag!

in reality i have found by the time your at 8000 Rs were on the brakes and coming into the next corner, or plain run out of road! now at the Famous Daytona road course with its 200+ mph back straight ,maybe , and a lot of fun till V12 overheats!

just came to mind, Pontiac /GM engines used a 30* inlet seat angle on there V8s from 1955 till late around 1985!

i built an old Ford V8 flathead (valves in block) back in early 60s for a guy , well in his class racing ,he won to many races , so they banned him ,and ordered an engine take down , they found him unlegal!

engine had 15* valve seats ,inlet and exhaust, HEY it worked !

ron

Ron, I like what you have done. It was smart and obviously did the business.

I guess if we asked the question backwards, we might find the problem resolves itself.

Q. “What do you need to do to make 500bhp from a 5.3L engine?”

A(1) : “Very good volumetric efficiency!”
A(2) : “Make it a 7L engine!”

It would be interesting to do the maths. You’ve got to get the air and fuel in, and burn it on time. And if you can’t make the torque, then you have to turn it faster. All of those things are interesting little problems in their own right that need to be reliably solved.

PS. I am planning on ceramic coating too. Makes too much sense not to do it.

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