Fuel vapor lock

I think we are confusing two different issues.
Vapour lock… george taylor gave a good explanation at a Register meeting one night
" if you boil a ketle at home it will boil at app 100C, but if you go to the top ofa mountain it will boil at less, say 95C. Because it boils more easily at lower pressure. Now SU pumps are two types, Pullers and pushers. On SS/MK IV they are [ or should be pullers. They work by lowering the pressure in the line from the tank to the pump and so atmos press in the vented tank makes the petrol flow to the pump. but because the line has had the pressure lowered by the SU, the petrol in it with boil/ vapourise more easily

However the symptom of the car not starting after a short period of standing on a hot day is the opposite. The fuel trapped in the line expands and being trapped, increases in pressure until it pushes the needle and seat in the float bowl top open and floods the carb.
Which possibly is why modern cars have the pump at the rear, keeping the line under pressure and Chrysler in the days before they used petrol pumps had a capillary bleed built in to the petrol filter to relieve pressure.
I would also suggest to Daniel that if you are going to modify, do one mod at a time, then you are in a better position to determine the effectiveness of that mod.
If you have actual vapourisation on anSS/MK IV you can insert an extra pump up the back to push petrol through under pressure. if so, you don’t need to do anything to the front SUs or even disconnect them. Fuel can pump through them and they will only electrically operate when they detect a lack of fuel. I have a small solid state pump in the spare wheel compartment as well as the front SUs and have never had vapourisation.

Ed,
Process of elimination will start by placing insulator blocks between the carbs and the head. Should that fail, placing an extra solid state pump near the tank, either under the chassis after the petrol reserve valve, or nearer the fuel tank. In that case, would you recommend connecting a manual on/off electrical switch to the pump.
Regards,
Daniel

No need for an on/ off switch, at all.
I think you are doing it the hardest way, the insulator blocks will need to be the same thickness, rebending the starter carb pipe is very difficult the capillary is the easiest solution 1/8” copper capillary tube , drill a 1/8” hole in the petrol pipe on the engine side of the pipes from the pumps and join it in on the petrol tank side. Cheapest quickest, easiest and it goes directly to your problem.

How are you sealing the 1/8" copper capillary tube to the petrol pipe, and is the tube joined to the pipe near the petrol tank, or to the petrol tank ?

Daniel

You could possibly machine some thickness off the carb flanges to accommodate an insulating spacer or possibly create a new casting for the starting carb cylinder head inlet.

Peter :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

The 3 1/2 litres don’t have a casting, jusr straight into the head,
But installing the cappilrrary… remove the pipe from the fuel pumps that goes to the carbs . Drill a1/8” hole and soft solder one end of the capillary into that, as you can see in the picture I posted ,I reinforced it by also soldering it to the side of the down pipe so the load from vibration wasn’t on the butt joint.
The other end only needs to go into the petrol pipe on the tank side of any petrol pumps.
In my case because I also have a third pump in the spare wheel compartment, I ran it all the way back and slipped it between the filler neck hose and the tank inlet tube,
Other wise it can be joined into anywhere on the tank side of the pumps if you are feeling in a concours mood you can have the pipe satin plated before reinstalling it

I decided to step back and think about this problem for awhile.

The thermal expansion coefficient of liquid gasoline is 0.095 percent per degree C.
The thermal expansion coefficient of vapor phase gasoline is 0.340 percent per degree C.
On a hot day, suppose it is 90F or 30C, with the engine at 190F or 90C.
For a difference in temperature of 60C from the tank to the engine, liquid will expand 5.7%, whereas vapor will expand 20.4%.

I believe vapor lock is a condition where liquid fuel is turning into vapor in the jet and the passage from the float bowl to the jet, and expanding according to the thermal coefficient, thus it is too lean, making the car difficult to start when hot. The reason liquid turns to vapor too soon is what is known as heat soak, excessive heat from the head getting to the carb body and then getting to the liquid.

If the heat is somewhat more severe, it will vaporize in the float bowl, and if even more severe, in the fuel pipe between the float bowl and the fuel pump; thus if the only vent for this volume of vapor is the jet as it passes the needle, the pump will not be able to push liquid fuel in, as it is vaporized too quickly and expands, effectively creating a back pressure.

In the most severe case, it vaporizes in the fuel pump. If the heat gets to the fuel pump and vaporizes the fuel, it cannot be pumped forward.

Heat transfer measured in Joules per second or Watts is directly proportional to the cross sectional area of the transferring medium, and inversely proportional to the thickness.
In our case the medium is the carb flange and body, including the studs nuts and washers. The gasket is thin enough to be considered negligible as an insulator.

Our fundamental root problem is that fuel is boiling in the jet and the supply passage from the float chamber. The ideal solution is to eliminate or reduce the heat transfer to the carbs.

Recirculating the fuel back to the tank only cools the fuel pump; it does not address the root problem of heat at the carbs.

We have one design advantage in that the radiator top tank and the water manifold are higher than the carbs, and the hottest coolant will migrate up away from the cylinder head. Possibly this may be the reason we do not hear of this problem often with our saloons. In the Model T era this was known as the thermosyphon system. XK120 did not have this advantage, the header tank being at the same height as the intake manifold.

Heat shields between the manifold and carbs have been tried on some other makes.
But our pushrod engines do not have an external manifold, so that solution is irrelevant for us.

Vent tubes were added to float bowls beginning with late Mark IV and then Mark V, which allows some of the vapor pressure to let off there as it expands, rather than only through the jet.

A remote fuel pump was used on Mark V and XK120.

Fiber insulator spacers were added to XK120 and Mark VII beginning in late 1952 with engines W.6919 and B.1752, and continued in use on all subsequent carburetor models. Unfortunately this change is not described in any factory issued Service Bulletin, but experience among XK120 owners has shown this to be an effective solution, and earlier 120s are often converted.

Switching on the starting carb sometimes will get a hot car started.

If vapor lock happens frequently, perhaps the water manifold is clogged with crud.

On the 3-1/2 Litre, one could make a phenolic fiber or Bakelite or high temperature plastic spacer the same thickness as the current C.347 aluminum spacer. Then the starting carb pipe would not need to be modified. Heat would still transfer through the studs, but their cross sectional area is much smaller than the flange, so the Watts transferred would be reduced.

On the 2-1/2 Litre there is no current spacer, so if spacers were made and added with longer studs, the starting carb pipe would have to be modified, either with 1/2” copper tubing or a rubber hose.

On both engines, vent tubes could be added on the float bowl tops.

A length of rubber hose between the fuel pump and float bowls is an effective heat insulator to stop heat transfer to the pump.

1 Like

Rob,
Your detailed analysist on the effectiveness of reducing carb temperature with phenolic fiber type spacers using same thickness [3/4"] as the aluminum C.347, should, I believe be the first process. That would avoid rebending the starter carb pipe. The next step would be Ed’s recommandation of installing a capillary line. The labor time required for both process is close to the same. That is not to say that I’m pressed for time, only pressed for the challenges of duelling with occasionally cantankerous cars. Its fun, as long as I don’t break any thing else in the process.
Thank you all for your helpful contributions,
Daniel

Should anyone be interested in installing insulaters between the carbs and the engine, Welsh Jaguar p/n 372-030 and gasket p/n 294-700 are perfect fits except for the thickness. Installing 2 insulators w/gaskets closely matched the original aluminum spacers with a difference of 2mm. Hence, no need to modify the starting pipe. Preliminary trial with the engine running for approx 25min, disclosed no engine heat transfert to the carb bodies. Of course, the real test will be on a hot summer Day. If vapor lock occurs, then Ed’s capillairy fuel return recomendation will follow. Will post results.
Daniel

2 Likes

Greetings to all,

The weather in N.E. is warming up, providing a chance to see the effects of insultors in preventing fuel vapor lock. So far, so good, after allowing the Engine temp to reach pass 92ºC after long idle, and restart.

Cheers,
Daniel

Hi all, I was thinking about Ed’s suggestion for the return line to the tank, and also the overflow tubes on the MKV fuel bowls. Is there any reason (apart from non originality) that the following could not be done…

  1. Plumb a return line to the tank, but connect to the overflow tubes, instead of tapping into the front banjo bolt.
  2. Remove the floats from the 2 carbies.

I think this would result in fuel constantly circulating to the carbies and then back to the tank via the overflows. There would be no need for floats as the excess pressure would be bled away before the needles are lifted.
All reversible if needed.

Regards, Jon

The floats are there to set the level of fuel at the jet, so I can’t imagine the carbs working

I doubt tapping into the banjo bolt is optimum as you need to turn it. It’s easier to tap into the pipe of the T outlet from the pumps
Just tapping to the over flow pipes?. It wouldn’t affect vapourisation issues that exist as the only difference is the excess fuel pressure goes back to the tank , not into the atmosphere. Ecologically better,but I wouldn’t think it would help with vapourisation.

Fair enough - I didn’t realise the floats set the fuel level at the jet; I thought it was just to operate the float needle and seat to prevent the bowls from overflowing; similar to a cistern float in a toilet.
The only reason I thought it would help vapourisation as the petrol would just keeps circulating: tank to pump to carb and back to tank, thus not staying in place long enough to heat up.

Floats set the level of the fuel in the jet. If the pressure of the float chamber would be raised above atmospheric then additionally there would be enhanced flow of gas out of the float bowl, this occurs through overflow pipes, and/or jets, when over-pressure occurs in float bowl by unstopped incoming fuel flow typically at 1-2 psi. If the overflow pipes were used to return excess fuel to tank then the pressure pushing that flow to tank also would change the flow in the jets, dramatically.

1 Like

Thanks Roger; between yours and Ed’s explanation I am convinced… :wink:

That would only work, if you drilled the bowls, at the fuel level line, then used gasoline-proof foam in the bowl, in place of the float.

I did this very thing to numbers of race cars, my own too, and ran the return line into a modified esky, full of dry ice, in the boot, to cool the fuel in the tank.

1 Like