Generic keyless entry on SII?


(Frank Andersen) #21

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It is very important that the current to the solenoids operates very briefly, like 5 seconds, Dave - or even the solenoid may burn before the thermal breaker trips. I assume the ‘5 seconds delay’ refers to the length of the power application to the solenoids/relays - even a ‘momentary pulse’ is is indeed adequate to operate the solenoids, of course…:slight_smile:

It’s a bit unfortunate that there is no built-in time limiter on the device itself, so it is likely prudent to consider a backup - though user awareness should be adequate.


(Frank Andersen) #22

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…to proceed with the interrupted message…:slight_smile:

After all, few, if any, remotes requires press and hold - and it is a bit odd that your delay only starts when the remote button is released?

To solve the ‘light flashing’ feature; you can connect to the light switch red/slate or red/orange, from the two relays’ solenoid connections - which should light up one rear and one front park lamps. Or one lead from one solenoid to either and the other relay to the other - showing if you are locking or unlocking…:slight_smile:

Your 30A relays should handle it easily. However, to avoid feedback from the light switch to the solenoids you will either need two fairly hefty diodes in these connection - or use two more relays. You may also activate the horn by a diode protected wire to the horn relay - though a 5 second blare may be overkill. Which will of course be solved if you solve the ‘press and hold’ solution…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
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(davelloyd) #23

Hi Frank,

I made a mistake in my last post in as much as the delay I have set is 0.5 (1/2) second and not 5 seconds.

To make things a bit more clear, when you press the transmitter button the relays operate instantly but continue to operate for a further 0.5 seconds after the button is released.

It is a shame that the delay is timed after the button is released but while it is not tripping the breaker at 0.5 seconds it would be nice to make it foolproof if you will.

I found this link to how to wire a relay to give a momentary output and will give that a try over the next day or so.

http://www.the12volt.com/relays/relaydiagram20.html

My thoughts on the flashing lights are to have the two front and two rear sidelights flash when it is locked and the indicators flash when it’s unlocked somehow using two more relays.

See how it goes

Dave


(Frank Andersen) #24

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Many ways of skinning this particular cat, Dave - you can have anything you want, but some solutions are more complicated than others…:slight_smile:

Seemingly, your remote controller is designed to deliver power as long as the button is held (+ 0,5 seconds) - contrary to the usual remote car door remotes which gives the necessary short burst to operate door motors (and solenoids) that have no ‘endstop’ cutouts. Modifying your solenoid relays as described should work - and you could even refine, and complicate, it further with a variable capacitor. Though procedural ‘push and release’ is simpler…:slight_smile:

Using two relays to power the side lamps, preferably through the light switch, the complicates matters - though in principle, the solenoid relay connections may be used both to control the ‘light relays’ and power the lights through the same relays. Inline diodes of suitable specs is a somewhat simpler solution…

Incidentally; the original solenoid central locking system employed capacitors that discharged through the solenoid relays for the required brief pulse…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
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(davelloyd) #25

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

That’s exactly how the remote works. As long as the button is pressed there is power plus 0.5 seconds after it is released.

I added the capacitors and resistors to the separate relays and it works fine. No ,matter how long you hold the button on the transmitter then the relay gives a very short pulse which is enough to operate the door solenoids. Perfect. There is a slight delay, of about 10 seconds for the relay to “recover” while the capacitor discharges through the resistor which I can live with.

I am going to use another two relays to operate the turn signal lights.

My idea at the moment is that when locking the car the second relay for the lights operates and is configured in the same way to give a short pulse and flash once.

For unlocking the car I have the idea that if I set the relay in the Velleman receiver to 5 seconds and then use a separate flasher unit the turn signals should flash on and off and if this works it remains to be seen how many times they will flash.

Dave


(Jochen Glöckner) #26

Hi Dave,

congratulations! You’re way faster than I! For the moment I called that endeavour a day, as the products on the market seemed questionable in terms of quality. I wasn’t aware of the Velleman products. Did you install the Velleman VM 130? Where did you measure those 7 Amps? It seems outrageous to me - either wire only switches the control circuit of one relay after all. If I get into it I certainly won’t start soldering in extra components.

Best regards

Jochen

75 XJ6L 4.2 auto (UK spec)


(davelloyd) #27

Hi Jochen,

Yes, it is the Velleman VM 130 that I am using and for what it cost the quality is ok, if not great, but acceptable to me.

There is a permanent live feed to one of the centre connections on the switch and when the switch is pressed it connects to the outer connection on the switch. I removed the cable from the outer connection and reconnected it to the switch through an ammeter.

I then held the switch down until the thermal breaker that protects the lock circuit tripped and the current rose to 7 amps.

I took that as the maximum current that the Velleman unit would ever “see” but I was unable to find out if it would handle that much current so decided to use the Velleman to switch two independent relays.

Everything works fine, I can lock or unlock the car from 30 metres. However, I found that if I held the transmitter button down inadvertantly for more than, say 5 seconds, then the thermal breaker would trip. That is when I decided to add the capacitor and resistor to the relay which works perfectly, limits the pulse from my relay to 1/2 second and the breaker does not trip. The capacitor and resistor cost 68 pence.

Making the lights flash is proving to be more difficult but I enjoy the challenge.

As for being faster than you, I have finally got round to this after kicking the idea around for at least five years:)

Dave


(Frank Andersen) #28

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Great work, Dave - and fast! :slight_smile:

Don’t really see the point of wilfully different set-ups for the lock and unlock set-ups though - and using the turn signals as indicators may pose some problems…?

All that said; car electrics are a bit tricky; to save on wiring some deep thoughts went into interconnections - which may react abnormally to extra connections/power inputs. This cannot be fully assessed by using wiring diagrams - so after fitting functions should be thoroughly tested to ensure against unwanted feedbacks. That is why diodes are used in some circuits…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 895 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
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(davelloyd) #29

Hi Frank,

The idea for the turn signals being used was simply how the locks work on my van. Turn signals flash once when locking and twice when unlocking.

However, what you’re saying is correct and while I’ve been trying to get this to work I have been getting some strange results.

I should, sensibly, settle for the parking lights flashing on locking the car and be done with it. There is no need for any lights when unlocking the car for any practical reason.

Thing is though, I would like to solve it just for the sake of it because I don’t like the idea of giving up on something and letting the problem beat me. Am I stupid or what?

I’ll probably leave the idea for a while and re-visit sometime in the future after thinking it over.

Dave


(Frank Andersen) #30

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I entirely agree with you ‘for the sake of it’, Dave - giving up is not an option…:slight_smile:

‘Most’ modern remotes use direction lights as visual signals, sometimes adding an audible ‘grunt’ - but the remote wiring is configured specifically for the signals. Our Jaguar direction set-up is somewhat unusual - and not easily incorporated into remote wiring. I


(Frank Andersen) #31

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To continue (that ‘reply’ button is too close for comfort…:slight_smile:

Using the direction lamps as remote indicators is not impossible, but quite frankly; the parking light circuitry is more accommodating…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
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(davelloyd) #32

Hi Frank,

I’ll post this for anyone who’s reading this to say that I am starting to think that really the Velleman unit was not the best choice. I am sure I could get this to work but I guess I’m making life hard for myself.

After a lot of searching I found a specific aftermarket keyless entry remote which I think may be better suited. I studied the instructions for it and finally saw that it was able to give a momentary 0.8 second positive pulse and also an output to be used for flashing hazard lights (could operate the parking lights too).

I am going to play around with what I have for the moment but I may decide to go for the other unit.

When I finally get it working I will post my conclusions so that anyone reading can use this as a reference if they want to do the same thing.

Dave


(Jochen Glöckner) #33

Indeed, Dave,
I found a similar item offering a defined period of triggering, avoiding the overload issues.

OTOH, if I understood you correctly, you read those 7A only upon prolonged operation. As my central locking makes itself heard with a pronounced “thunk” I don’t see any need for additional signalling either. All in all your result is positive, so there is no need for regrets.

Good luck
Jochen
75 XJ6L 4.2 auto (UK spec)

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(davelloyd) #34

Jochen,

Can you post the details of the unit you found, please?

Yes, I read the 7 amps after a prolonged input.

Since the idea is that the unit connects the two terminals on the switch it seems to me that somehow it might be possible for the relays on the unit to receive that 7 amp current which is why I chose to add a couple of extra relays that can easily handle the current. I don’t really know what I’m doing here so I just felt it would be better safe than sorry

As for the signalling I would agree that it’s not really necessary but I just thought it would be nice if I could make it work.

I enjoy the problem/challenge in a strange sort of way and hopefully I will learn something along the way…

Dave


(Jochen Glöckner) #35

Dave,

here it is http://www.ebay.de/itm/131420729025?ul_noapp=true: The
function is described under D (operation for 0.5s, no matter how long
the button is depressed).

It is supposed to come with a cover and be adaptable to any 433 MHz
transmitter (as I already have for my garage door). Would sound nice to
save one of these chubby key fobs.

But again, might just as well be another 25 EUR better invested in good
wine …

Best regards

Jochen


(Frank Andersen) #36

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All specific remote locking systems are designed for this brief pulse, Dave - it’s the time required for motors to fully lock or unlock. Most aftermarket remotes have enough power to operate the drivers door motor with its built-in control unit - which then operates the other locks. However, they are ‘all’ based on polarity reversal which does not work with solenoids - and besides, have not enough power to drive all solenoids. Using two relays solve both problem - one relay operating with one polarity, the other with polarity reversed…

As an aside; the Velleman type you have must not be used with motors - and even with solenoids it is ill advised to apply power until the thermal breaker trips. It may still burn the solenoids and even properly fused will likely burn motors - which are much frailer. But neither are meant for continuous power - and they have no ‘endstop’ switch-off…:slight_smile:

Fair enough to consider a ‘designated’ remote - but will not automatically solve the ‘light’ issue…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
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(davelloyd) #37

Frank,

I only held the switch down once just to see what the maximum current was.

The other remote I was looking at is this -

Looking at the wiring diagrams there is on setup that gives a positive pulse for 0.8 seconds, but again, I don’t know if that is after the transmit button is released or not. I already solved that issue by wiring a small capacitor and resistor in parallel on the ground side of the relays I am using and the relays pulse for 1/2 second no matter how long the transmit button is pressed for.

Jochen,

If I had more sense I would have spent the money on wine…or beer even :wink:

Dave


(Frank Andersen) #38

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The type you refer to has a series of feature that are only useful if suitable hardware is fitted - which does not come with the ‘hawk’…

Note the four buttons and the operating description - it provides for different output destination, and the central control unit has a lot of ‘out’ wires to suit. This remote is, as usual for most of them, designed for door motors, polarity reversal, and cannot be directly used for solenoids, it also require a drivers door control unit (not supplied. The output is restricted to a short burse to motors each time a button is pressed - button selection and operation then activates the various functions, including activating existing alarm…and so on and so forth…

In short, it is very excessive to your immediate requirements - unless you also install a variety of additional hardware, which the ‘hawk’ assume is already installed. There are plenty of simpler system that will do your job, and more…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)


(Jochen Glöckner) #39

Good evening everybody and …HELP!!!

Finally I ventured into the installation of a remote control switch and got myself some Chinese 2-channel RC system. Now I seem to have run into a problem: The original setup is based - as described in my original post 10 - on power being diverted by the central door lock switch (located at the center console) either to the opening door lock solenoid relay or the closing door lock solenoid relay. Both relays then work on the door lock solenoids. I made up a flow diagram from the wiring pattern:

.
So if I want to basically “replace” the function of the original switch, I need a remote control switch that likewise switches power.

Now I got this RC 2-channel switch, but I’m afraid it only switches negative:Wiring_Diagram_KL-K201C.
Am I missing anything? Is there a way to make this switch work? The only way I can think of is insulating the relays (located at the rear seat bench), and making up an insulated negative wire with this switch wired into?

Any ideas welcome! Thanks all and all the best

Jochen

75 XJ6L 4.2 auto (UK spec)


(Frank Andersen) #40

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The function of that receiver module is somewhat elusive to me - and I’m not quite sure it is suitable; your sketch does not include the remote receiver. The gist of solenoid operation is that the two wires to the solenoid ends is that one is powered (+) to lock, then the other is powered (+) to unlock - other wire in each case is unpowered. The solenoid ground is solenoid body - permanent as indeed your drawing shows…

So the set-up in the drawing should work perfectly, of course - but to get the remote to activate the relays in turn likely requires the use of blocking diodes. Crudely; if the ‘Load 1’ (K1) and ‘Load 2’ (K2) operates separately; they can be connected separately to orange/green and orange/red the door lock switch.

HOWEVER! Your text implies that the K1 and K2 grounds Load 1 and Load 2, which are separately powered from the car battery - and the simple description of connection mentioned above will then not work!

Forget the ‘battery’ connected to Load 1 and 2 in the remote’s diagram - it is irrelevant in this case - the solenoids being the actual load; they are powered from the door lock solenoid relays. Load 1 and 2 now represents the solenoid relays - activated by grounding K1/K2.

The rewiring required is to disconnect brown/blue (NU) in your sketch from the lock switch - but keeping the (NU) connected to the relays. This is the permanent power source actually operating the solenoids.

Then ‘reverse’ the relay connections - ie disconnecting ground and connecting (NU), permanent power, to the relays. Then, at the door lock switch; connect the vacant (previously NU) switch connector to ground…

The lock switch will alternately activate one relay at a time as the switch grounds the relay(s). The remote K1 and K2, connected to orange/green and orange/red respectively as described above will now operate the relays by providing ground…

All this relies of my understanding of your sketch and your description of the remote’s function…

…so you must consider the big picture. In this configuration the solenoid power is provided by constant power, connected by the relay. The relays are operated by permanent power - connecting their coils individually to ground by the switch/remote rather than applying power individually from the switch (or remote) to the relays…

SE&O…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
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