First of all, I would like to introduce myself: my name is Iñaki, from Santander, Northern Spain, and I recently bought an XJ6 Series II, automatic, 4.2 (carburettors) from 1978.
The timing needs to be replaced and the gearbox is working fine at 1st, 2nd and 3rd, but the last gear, which doesn’t engage (I guess it might be related to the low torque provided by the faulty engine).
However, what is driving me crazy is a small pipe I cannot find anywhere: a heater steel pipe, located just under the radiator. It’s a double pipe, with an inner pipe and some penetrations… and all the suppliers I am contacting to, say it’s no longer available.
At this stage, I am considering to make a new one, unless someone can help me to find one on spare.
Thank you, All and I hope we’ll discuss many other nicer topics soon!
Cheers,
great you made it to this forum! Congratulations for your “new” car! There seems to be little substance in terms of classic cars in Spain - at least I hardly spot any “native” antique cars when I visit your beautiful country. It seems during the Franco regime hardly any cars were imported and domestic SEATs vanished quickly afterwards.
Gearbox problems aren’t uncommon with XJ series cars. Just for a first sigh of relief: there are only three gears in the BW65 (or BW66 for this purpose) gearbox. If you push it and rev out in second gear, third will engage at >100 kph. With a light foot third will be used around 50 kph. If the engine doesn’t perform, upshift will be very early.
With a car of almost 40 years of age you might first wish to identify which components are original, which have been replaced or even replaced in a “creative” manner. The original Parts Catalogues and Repair Operation Manuals are available at moderate costs. It’ll be one of the best investments you can make. The following pic is taken from the parts catalogue:
Maybe you’re looking for part # C.37666 which is the transmission oil cooler. One supplier states it has been superseded by Jaguar # CAC5143 which seems to be the SIII trans oil cooler and a quick research found some used parts. It may be easier to go this route instead of having a new part fabricated. - But let’s first confirm we’re talking the same part:slight_smile:
Dear Jochen,
Thank you for your reply.
Firstly, true Spain suffered a serious slow down in its development, at least from the end of XVIII century, not “enjoying” the Industrial Revs, at all… That meant, after series of civil wars in XIX and XX C. that no “native” car industry was developed, except two very impressive brands: Hispano Suiza and Pegaso. In any case, quite unusual, hard to find and too expensive for mid class guys.
Seat cars, however, have a popular appeal in Spain, with lots of clubs and racing models very demanded.
Not my case, having been always infatuated by oil-leaky Bristish cars… I have owned a MKIII Spitfire (a beauty in all respects), a TR4 and a GT6. Not too bad for my 30s.
Now, a family man, I found an XJ6 with 70k km in stunning shape, but some problems in the engine/gearbox.
Gearbox, as far as I read, has three gears, but a sort of overdrive in the 3rd. It never worked, so I can confirm 1st and 2nd were right, but third was about 3500RPM for 100kph. I expected a shift there, which never happened, so I guess it should decrease revs below 4.000 when we are running at about 120kph, isn’t it?
Has anyone any reference of the speed/RPM ratio we can expect?
Regarding the pipe, you are right: I referred to C37666-Auto. Could you, please suggest a spare part supplier I can ask for? All my research ended up in “not available anymore, sorry”.
Thanks again, Jochen!
Thanks, Carl!
You are right: it’s the 1st one… see the sketch Jochen sent.
I’m afraid it’s not produced anymore and I need to make sure that the pipe offered for Series III is exactly the same.
Thanks again,
Here’s a recent thread that you might find informative. One of my posts contains a link to a photo that compares the S1-2 and S3 designs. The vendor I mention, David Boger, will certainly have the S3 and probably the earlier cooler as well. But he is in the US.
I looked up Santander. It’s a beautiful coastal city!
Thank you, Robert!
Unfortunately, length is different, so most probably the inserts won’t fit either… hope something pops up.
Otherwise, I’ll ask a pipe workshop to rebuilt it, but I’m a bit afraid of internal pipes.
Santander is nice, though it escaped almost unscathed the civil war, only to take fire three years after, in 1942, by accident… so the downtown was destroyed and few nice buildings remained. The bay, mountains and gastronomy remain… plus a few Jags!
Hi Ignacio, welcome to the forum, the S11 transmission on my 1975 runs at <>2700 rpm at 100kph, the trans does not have any lockup feature in any gear nor an overdrive feature http://www.jagbits.com/product/CAC5143-USED.html
No affiliation but this appears to be available.
in fact I was not alluding to the pre-war scene of great Spanish classic cars - I once saw a Hispano-Suiza at an exhibition and was absolutely stunned! Yet, there seems to be little left from the bread-and-butter era in Spain, when Europe was put on wheels and motor cars changed from objects of adventures or pinnacles of technology to consumables - from the 1950s to 1970s. Glad to hear some of the Seats have survived!
As for cars I went pretty much the same route entering the scene with a Triumph Spitfire, which then was almost new. I had my second personal encounter with Spain in 1987 when my girlfriend and me made some 7500 kms from Germany to Spain, into Portugal and around the Iberian peninsula, all top down, no motorway and each night a different camp site. In Seville I got ill - rhyme not intended -, but the car took us back and only lost an exhaust gasket during the return trip in the Pyrenee mountains.
Following the birth of my son I was thinking of a six cylinder Triumph Vitesse convertible, but at the end of the day it would have cost me about as much as a period XJ and still would have been a fun car tin can, whereas the Jag has all you need to transport a family in style and relative safety. I only installed seat belts on the rear bench, which was very easy to do.
As for your car, as Robin has indicated, there is no such thing as an overdrive on the standard BW65 auto transmission - hence my question regarding originality. At some time in the past someone may have replaced the box with a more advanced one. So maybe a change has also affected the gearbox oil cooler used.
For what it’s worth, all parts suppliers indidate the original automatic gearbox oil cooler C.37666 as superseded by CAC5143 which indicates a drop-in replacement. However, even this one seems to be hard to get by. Robin has already sent you one link to a US supplier. David Boger, regular poster on this list, might also have a cooler available, and in particular have information on their substitutability. Another supplier I found is http://www.motorcarsltd.com/used-cac5143.html
**
Standard shift points are, with light throttle, Ignacio; 1/2 at 13 - 19 kph, 2/3 at 21 - 30 kph…
As Jochen remarks; shift points increase with increased pedal input - with the pedal ‘floored’ 1/2 occurs at 67 - 85 kph, 2/3 at 120 - 134. These are approximations; with moving off leisurely; the upshifts 1/2/3 happens in quick succession, seamlessly - with no jerking. ‘Light throttle’ in this context means a throttle position that will keep you cruising at some 30 - 40 kph…
This initial test is important; the shift points are adjustable - and the test will show if adjustment is required…
If so; first go to the throttle pedestal - the gearbox is connected to the gas pedal by a cable with a threaded adjuster at the pedestal. You may find a small ferrule crimped on to the cable - it is a reference put on when the box was last adjusted. The ferrule should be 0,4 mm from the threaded adjuster. Adjust to proper clearance…
If there is no ferrule, and the shift points are not to specs - a proper adjustment involves pressure readings, using a gauge. This can be done by a transmission shop - which may also reveal if there are other issues. The adjustment also takes into account the engine state…
Hello, Robin!
Thanks a lot for your help!
That is the piece I am looking for… but unfortunately, that’s for 1979 onwards and mine is from 1978, so a shorter type.
I’ll keep searching.
My Jag was doing about 3.500rpm for 100kph, but the timing was in very bad shape (we almost destroyed the engine during the take over!), so let’s see after the overhaul and carbs repairs.
Thanks a lot again, Jochen!
I will try with the suppliers you suggest.
Funny we had the same approach to the XJ6… no E-type shaped car for a family and the XJ6 plays a different league compared to the Vitesse, when we think on going on holidays with the family in a reasonable safe way.
I read somewhere the third gear had a sort of overdrive, but I must admit I was simply wrong… the problem was the ratio 3500rpm/100kph, when the actual problem was in the engine, not in the gearbox. Let’s see after repairs!
We keep in touch… and congratulations for your good experience in Spain, despite your sickness in Sevilla.
Take care,
Hi, Frank!
That’s a detailed useful reply too!!
I cannot tell you yet, as everything seems to be wrong due to a poor performance of the engine. The timing chains needs to be replaced, as the pads were loose and we could have destroyed the engine.
This meant that the engine was not providing the proper power and at 95-100kph, it simply “jerked” - if this is the correct word in English - and I was obliged to slow down… The car has just been bought and previous Owner (the only one, in fact) was 85 years old and rarely used it. Just 73k km, but I guess lots of problems due to almost no recent driving.
When the chains are fully overhauled (carburetors have already been rebuilt), we will check the shift points, but I must say the shifting was very soft, almost unnoticed… so the problem is somewhere else. I wonder where did I read there was an overdrive!!!
Thanks again and we keep in touch.
Timing will not change the rpms the engine is turning at a given road speed, you need to check that the fluid in the trans is OK and check that the torque converter is not splipping excessively.
The only other thing I can think of is that the car may have been repowered and has the incorrect diff ratio? When you lift off the throttle do you have quite sudden reduction in speed, as if you have applied the brakes? This can happen when a 2.8 engine is replaced by a 4.2 a club member did this and he reported that he nearly went through the screen.
Hi, Andy!
I’m trying to pm you, but I cannot see the way (no priviledge yet?).
Feel free to try to contact me.
Is the spare pipe you have in good condition? Mine has been rewelded and there’s putty on the weldings, so it’s crying for a replace.
Thanks,
Hi, Robin!
Everything is original… I even have the original invoice d all the documentation and invoices from new!
I think the problem was partially the carburettors and also problems with a slipping timing, which meant the engine was unbalance and low performant.
Now, the carburettors have been rebuilt and the engine will come off to renew the timing and check the rest.
Luckily it didn’t behave as you described!
It simply went wrong above 90kmh and seemed to be underpowered, plus the jerking amd strong noise.
Let’s see after the engine dismount.
Btw, do you run burning directly unleaded petrol or with an additive? Would you renew valve seats prepared for unleaded gas using any recommended supplier? It’s time to take advantage of the heads dismounted.
Thank you,
Straight unleaded, but I have been running XJ40 (14 years) and now XJR more than the S11 but I believe the XJ heads have hard valve seats sufficient to accomodate the lack of lead.
I will leave the subject of replacement seats to others that may have better ideas.
**
Rpms at 100 kph should be in the 2500 - 2700 rpms with the BW 65/66, Ignacio - depending on rear axle ratio…
As Robin says; rpms is not related to engine status - it’s either a gearbox/converter slipping, or possibly a tacho problem. And as he also says; first step with a gearbox problem is invariably to check fluid level. Done with the box hot and idling after passing the gear lever step by step though all lever positions…
As an aside; if you took over the car from someone driving ‘carefully’, and tried pushing it on the highway without carefully working the car up to speed over some time - trouble usually ensues. With long time ‘granny driving’, city driving at low speeds; an hour or so with gradually increasing speed will burn off carbon deposits - you can feel the engine loosens up…
Certainly, with suspected engine damage; you need to do a compression test. It will clarify some issues before you start dismantling. A ‘dry’ and ‘wet’ compression test will also go some way of clarifying engine wear…
Thanks again, Frank!
The problems started as son as I asked the seller to increase the speed from 60-70 kph during the very first road test.
The engine immediately reacted with a hit, or jerk, and at about 90kph-100 it rev over 3.500.
Rather than smooth slow drivings,I think he simply didn’t drive for years and just started it from time to time, and had it driven to the workshop for MOT inspections.
As son as I bought it, I took it to the workshop and it’s there since then, so no hard crazy driving from my side, knowing the engine complaint and behaved that way. Firstly, the carburetors were deeply repaired, and now we noticed that the engine didn’t run stable, and the timing problem popped up. Engine is being dismounted from the bay, and the timing will be renewed, the aft cranksfat oil seal will be replaced, adn we’ll see what’s more to be done. Luckily, all the components look like new and I don’t see any damage in the cams, tappets… though the heads will also come off.
I wish I could do it all at once, order teh necessary just one time, but you know, classic cars do not show all the cards at once.
By the way, thank you, All: the Series II heater pipe appeared!!!
Cheers,
