How does one static time a series 3 cei ignition?

XJ
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I have tried a visual setting putting the rotor near the #6 cyl. plug wire on the dist cap and then twisting the dist. to line up with the dist pick up protrusion and the nearest stator arm while the timing mark of the front pulley is at 8 deg. advanced. Is there a way to use a test light or multi meter? I cannot get the engine to run well enough to use a timing light. It barely starts at all. Something is severely wrong

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On the right side the wires are 4,2,6 from the top and those extending to the left are 1,5,3 from the top (CC from the top left #1 wire the wires are 1,5,3,6,2,4)

My problems started with an occasional no start no spark condition which would “go away” completely in 10 min. or so and run perfect for days I was looking into the problem when it became a permanent no spark. I found the dist pick up was an open circuit and replaced it (new one tests at 2.4 ohms). I took the amp apart and tested it according to the instructions: all was OK

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I went through the checklist :
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Every item checked off OK but i’m not sure I understand item 2: coil + and - were both 12.8V and the - coil “-” post went to 12.6V with the amp wire disconnected from the coil “-”. The test says “More than 2V means the amplifier is faulty”. So should the reading be exactly 2V when both coil and amp are OK?

I have checked continuity of all ignition wiring and replaced cap and rotor and plugs (Champion N11YC). I tried a different coil to dist cap HT lead and still the engine barely runs and will not increase rpm even when the pedal is pressed down. Releasing the pedal it just dies, The coil is a Valeo 245000 It measures 1.7 ohms primary and 7.3K secondary with a 1.1 ohm ballast resistor. A spark plug set into the coil HT lead sparks a small blue and yellow continual sparking when the engine is cranked. A test light between coil “-” and ground dims and flickers when the engine is cranked.

I have ordered new plug wires. Should I get a new coil at this point too? I have on hand a used Lucas Super BYS 15P6 45336A it measures 1.7 / 5.0K On this one is a resistor actually needed? I am running the same Lucas Super on a 84 XJ6 with no external resistor for years with no problems.

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I’ve read the advice to shift all the wires to one tower over on the dist. cap but if the rotor is already pointing at the #1 or #6 dist tower how would this help?

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Scott
are you in Phoenix…then you could swap parts…
Mitch

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You just described the method of static timing on EI, Scott…:slight_smile:

With the dist in roughly this position; fit the dist lid and attach a spare spark plug to the #6 plug lead. Turn ign ‘on’ and turn the dist back and forth around this position. Each time the pick-up passes the reluctor tooth the plug should spark - fasten the dist in the position that sparks…

Firstly; if there is no spark - you have an ign problem. Secondly; if the engine won’t run you may be on the ‘wrong’ TDC. The plugs must fire when a piston is near TDC with the valves closed - which happens every second time the damper pointer is to the TDC mark/advance. Using the ‘wrong’ TDC means the plugs are firing in an 'empty cylinder - and the engine won’t run…

(See below…)

Running counterclockwise this is the correct sequence - or using #6 as reference; 6-2-4-1-5-3. However, as said above; the correct TDC must be used.

Two ‘simple’ ways to verify; remove #6 spark plug and, with the finger on the plug hole; turn the engine towards TDC. As the piston comes up against closed valves - air will try to escape through the plug hole. (A ‘cork’ can be used - it will pop as piston comes up…

A secondary method; remove oil filler cap and peer towards #6, engine at TDC - with the correct TDC the cam lobe should point away from the valve. Ie, valve closed…

If the ‘wrong’ TDC was used; move all plug leads 180 deg on the dist lid…

Can’t read that check list, but have a simpler one.

  1. Connect a 12V test lamp between ‘B’ and ‘C’ on the
    module.
  2. Connect +12V to ‘B’ and ground the module
    body/ground.

If the test lamp light; the module is defective - replace.

  1. Jumpwire ‘B’ to ‘G’

The lamp will light if the module is OK

However, the general in-car test is ‘usually’ adequate.

  1. Turn ign ‘on’.
  2. Measure voltage at coil ‘+’ and ‘-’; both should read
    battery voltage
  3. Connect a test lamp between coil ‘-’ and ground.
    With ign ‘on’ - the lamp should be fully lit.
  4. Crank the engine; the lamp should dim and flicker.

Which you have tested and found ‘good’…! :slight_smile:

If the spark is ‘blue’; the ign is OK - just holding the dist lead near a good ground while cranking should draw a spark over half an inch or more…

Generally; it is advisable to use a spare plug , triple gapped - connected to any plug lead should give a spark during cranking. And the xk CE ignition will be OK on almost any coil…:slight_smile:

An external coil resistor is there to protect the ign amp - it is usually not required on EI if the primary coil resistance is above some 1+ ohms. So neither coil should need one - but usually resitors cause no trouble, unless faulty…

As said above; if the ign sequence is set with the ‘wrong’ TDC - moving all plug leads 180 degrees is the cure. And is possibly your problem - to be investigate…

However, if the ign system checks out OK - we may be barking up the wrong tree…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

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Frank, thanks for the very complete advice. I did check the exhaust cam lobe (thru the oil filler and it is about 90 degrees from fully opening the valve so I think I am on the correct TDC for cyl 6 (the front one) I could not get a spark by rotating the dist back and forth however. I heard the dist will only fit one way to engage the dist dog to the shaft inside, is this true? I was careful to not move the engine and I did note the dist rotor was pointing to #6 when I took the dist out. Even so I’ll try the cork in the cylinder to check If I have it all correct. Since I don’t have a spare cork I’m finishing off a bottle of red wine to ease my troubles!

Can a coil fail while still measuring the correct ohms?

I’ll try the old plug gaped to about 0.115 method you suggest and see what strength of spark I get. Is it necessary to test the condenser or zener diode in the ign. amp? how is it done? I do get a dimming and flickering of the test lamp between ground and coil"-" when cranking. Is that all the test that is needed? As you summarized; I did the ign. amp. test of the internal amp module and it was OK. Even so since I have such trouble I replaced it with another used and checked ign amp and no improvement.

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The coil will put out a healthy spark on a triple gaped old plug but individual cylinder wires will not spark it
I have checked that I am on #6 compression stroke with a loose spark plug in the hole surrounded by a layer of oil. I clearly observed the bubbles so am not 180 degrees off on the distributor instilation. Even so I still cannot get a spark when twisting the dist back and forth. Also cannot get individual cyls. to light up a special spark plug test light put in series between the plug and the plug wire but can get the coil directly to pulse the test light. I am hoping the new wires will make all the difference but have trouble understanding how most of the plug wires could suddenly go completely bad.

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Thanks Mitch for the offer I am in Montana; I can put you up for a free “working” vacation: www.airbnb.com/p/lake-retreat-mt

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[quote=“00ring, post:4, topic:433047, full:true”]
Frank, thanks for the very complete advice. I did check the exhaust cam lobe (thru the oil filler and it is about 90 degrees from fully opening the valve so I think I am on the correct TDC for cyl 6 (the front one) I could not get a spark by rotating the dist back and forth however. I heard the dist will only fit one way to engage the dist dog to the shaft inside, is this true? I was careful to not move the engine and

The main point here is if the engine was working as it should before removing the dist, Scott - and plug wires were not removed. Otherwise; the problem is just transferred…

However, all your actions indicates that the ign sequence is correct - and the problem is lack of sparking…

[quote]
Can a coil fail while still measuring the correct ohms?
[/unquote]

Yes, but if a spare plug sparks when attached to the coil centre lead, or near a good ground; coil and amplifier are working as they should. Ie, the fault is somewhere between the coil and the plugs. Like the leads and dist lid/rotor. A spare plug can be connected to any lead in turn to verify sparking and spark quality…

Generally, the best verification is that you have strong, blue sparks!..:slight_smile: (NB; the plug body must be grounded when testing)

However, without sparks; the test may still show ‘normal’ - there are some elusive problems that may weaken/disable sparking…

The grounding Zener diode is a device that blocks 12V voltage current, but high voltage current is diverted to ground - to protect the amp module. If it is grounding, wholly or partially, it weakens/disables the spark

Disconnect the Zener wire and test sparks. If you then have sparks or engine running well; Zener has failed…

You can ohm the diode, but it is polarity sensitive - and since the usual multimeter voltage is 9V; the test is inconclusive. However, if the diode shows ‘0’/low ohms in either direction; it may have failed. As the proper diode is difficult to source - replacing the entire AB14 is an option…

Also; you said you have replaced the dist pick-up? Did you check pick-up gap to between 0.008 and 0,014" and pick-up alignment? Wrong setting interferes with sparking…

The gist is; with proper sparking, correct ign sequence and timing the engine will run - unless the fault is elsewhere than ignition…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

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message sent

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Hello Frank,
I now have a running car but still with problems; I can’t accelerate much past 30 mph with out the engine getting very sluggish. However it does rev up very smoothly and run smooth at 3000 rpm wo/ load. Before I could barely idle with the pedal pushed a little ways down so a big improvement. I replaced old (30K miles) plug wires and another new cap and rotor. I set the timing w/ a timing lite to 6 deg BTDC on plug #6 and was surprised to find the stator node nowhere near the pick up node upon examination. The dist. was twisted far clockwise from the static position of lining the nodes up.

My two older coils were only 5K to 7K ohms on the secondary coil (about 1.8 ohms primary). I read the measurement should be about 10K ohms. Do I need to replace the coil? I’ve read recommendations for lucas DLB170 and DLB198 although there are complaints on the latter for leaking and early failure. I’ve read that the ballast resistor is needed to protect the amp and an equal number say throw the resistor out. What coil set up do you recommend?

My dist. pick up gap is 0.014. Now that it’s running I will try your suggestion to look at the robustness of the spark w/ and wo/ the zener diode connected

I’ll be replacing the fuel filter and will consider replacing the fuel pump also; any particular recommendation on a good pump? Does the fuel pressure regulator have a limited life? Mine is probably original. I’ve checked the pump does run on “start” and when the AFM flap is drawn inwards.

Thanks very much,
Scott

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Where is your dist vacuum connected, Scott - and have you checked that the advance, vacuum and centrifugal, is working…? Your symptoms may be related to the advance…

If ‘ported’ vacuum is used, the advance is set in the 14 - 17 degrees range - 4 to 6 degrees is used for manifold vacuum. (dist vacuum disconnected). The vacuum to the pressure regulator is always ‘manifold’, around 18" Hg - the dist is either that or ‘0’ if ported vacuum is used.

A coil is unlikely to cause problems as revs rise - if engine idles OK; the coil is good enough. As said; manufacturers may use different specs, giving different primary and secondary resistances - but the output voltages are in the same ballpark. Of course; if a specific coil does not show its specific specs - is defective…

The external resistor has been extensively discussed. Nobody has reported any adverse experiences when removing it - and you can bypass it, testing for changes…:slight_smile: Checking spark quality is a universal test for alternative solutions.

Only a fuel pressure test, ‘raw’ and ‘regulated’, can consistently reveal weaknesses in fuel supply. The pressure regulator is a long lasting item - a first check is if fuel is leaking out of the vacuum connection; defective. Bosch is a quality fuel pump, but not the only one - just ensure that it fits…

Propping open the AFM flap; the pump will run whith the ign ‘on’ -convenient for tests…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

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Hi Frank,
I do not know what “raw” or “regulated” means re: fuel pressure testing. I do have a fuel pressure gauge.
My dist is connected to the “dist” side of the delay valve and the “Carb” nipple is connected to the throttle body. The “delay” nipple is connected to manifold vacuum. What does the delay valve do and should I keep it?
I’ll try soon to check how much mechanical advance I have a 1700 rpm, I understand the total advance should be about 20 BTDC at 1700rpm (wo/ any vacuum connected.)
I checked vacuum advance does work with a hand vacuum pump.

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The spark across a 3X gaped plug looks yellowish.
basic timing is 7 deg
putting hand pumped vacuum to the dist at idle produces 19 degrees or 19-7=12 degrees of vacuum advance
I set the rpm to about 1700 and measured the advance: It was at 1 degree BTDC!!! somehow the dist is fouled up so badly that it went retarded by 6 degrees!. Engine ran a bit rough at this point.

I have a spare dist: a 45DM6. I’ll be looking into what is wrong. I had tried earlier to take the reluctor off but there seemed to be a thick black washer or maybe it was a very hard oring that would not come off the shaft. I’ll look more carefully at the driving dog at the bottom of the shaft to see if the pin is sheared.

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‘Raw’ is pump output pressure, Scott - connect the gauge to the rail inlet hose. A ‘good’ pump delivers 100+ psi; ‘fair’ is around 70 - below 40 psi it won’t run the engine properly.

‘Regulated’ is pressure in the fuel rail (about 36 psi) - measured at the CSI hose - or via a ‘T’ at the fuel rail inlet hose. However, the problem is more likely your ign advance…

[quote[
My dist is connected to the “dist” side of the delay valve and the “Carb” nipple is connected to the throttle body. The “delay” nipple is connected to manifold vacuum. What does the delay valve do and should I keep it?
[/quote]

Importantly; you need to check vacuum at the dist vacuum hose. The throttle body spigots may deliver either ‘manifold’ (18" Hg) or ‘ported’ (‘0’) on idle. 0nly measuring at the dist hose can tell - and initial advance must be set according to source…

The delay valve is usually fitted with the ‘ported’ set-up - basically to slow down vacuum changes with throttle movement…so…?

Just check the centrifugal advance (vacuum disconnected) at increasing rpms. It will show if the vacuum advance is working…

20 deg advance at 100 rpms (increasing gradually from around 5 degrees at 800) means your centrifugal is working. 12 degrees vacuum advance with hand pumped vacuum applied, means your vacuum advance is working - and you have an ‘advance’ distributor…

The gist is that with ‘manifold’ source of vacuum; you set idle advance to 4 - 6 deg - vacuum disconnected. With 'ported vacuum; the usual initial setting is 17 deg at idle - vacuum disconnected…

As advance setting specs vary with market and engine/dist type; it is perfectly OK to experiment a bit. One crude method is also, with the engine idling, to slightly vary advance for maximum vacuum - but it is a bit iffy…:slight_smile:

However, the centrifugal and vacuum advance should be separately verified. If both works/moves, the dist is likely OK, but the initial setting is still essential…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

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Hello Frank,
It seems your early suspicion of the advance timing being the cause of my problems was correct. The original distributor did not have the same mechanical advance spring tension characteristics as my spare: It was quite a bit weaker. With the spare in place and timed to 6 degrees basic adv. all is running well. Thanks so much for your assistance getting to the problem. Perhaps when the dist was moved about (while replacing the pick-up ) it caused a latent problem to manifest (such as a broken spring or other stuff to inconsistantly jam up the mechanical advance.

I’ve read many of your posts about the importance of identifying ported vacuum and manifold vacuum in relation to initial timing requirement and yet I still am having problems moving forward on this issue. So since this thread has reached a good conclusion, I will enter a new topic about the subject at hand now causing me confusion.