How much of a purist are you?

While rebuilding my XK 140 I quickly realized it is almost impossible to keep a car completely original and, in some cases, not even desirable. The classic “full nut and bolt restoration,” for example, is an outright admission that the car is no longer original. The original bolts have distinctive markings and are no longer available, at least in the US, and the old lock nuts and washers are less safe than nyloc nuts. I mistakenly ordered replacement nut and bolt kits from several of the usual suppliers only to get yellow, zinc plated bolts or Grade 5 bolts when Grade 8s were clearly required. I opted for unplated Grade 8 bolts which look original, but are not, and will be less rust resistant than plated. It was a compromise, but it has the right balance of performance and optics for me.

I also opted for a Wilwood disc brake conversion for the front brakes. I plan to drive this car and don’t mind pushing hard on the brake pedal, but I want something to happen when I do. It can all be converted back to original if someone wants, and I might have made a different choice if it could not, but drum brakes in a performance car were just a little too vintage for me. Similarly, I put on Dayton 60 spoke wire wheels. The originals were 54 spoke, but who wants a wheel to fail? On the other hand, 72 spoke wheels were just too obviously non-original for me. Once again, it was that conundrum between originality and a better, modern replacement. I want the car to look original, but I also want it to perform, be safe and reliable.

On the flip side, I just spent considerable extra dollars to get the radiator rebuilt with an original style core. If I can, I want to make the original cooling system functional without resorting to modern upgrades like electric fans. The XKs display their radiators front and center and an electric fan just screams out to me that the car is not original. The same could be said for aluminum radiators.

I opted to rebuild an original close ratio transmission with overdrive rather than replace it with a modern five-speed. Again, would the five-speed be easier to drive and more reliable? Yes. But is that the full answer? Not for me. I like the feel of the Laycock de Normanville overdrive. It is unlike anything in a modern car and part of the special experience of driving a vintage 140. I would say the same for keeping the original style steering wheel. It is the part of the car you see and touch the most, so why opt for a non-original replacement? Yet, non-original wheels of all styles and sizes are common.

Lest I come off as holier than thou, full disclosure requires that I admit to stainless steel brake lines, powder coating the chassis and all suspension parts, modern shocks, upgraded bushings, sway and torsion bars, radial tires, and a limited slip differential. And the list will undoubtedly grow as the project advances.

The point is, there are decisions, large and small, to be made on originality at every stage of restoration with a newer, better alternative singing its siren song. Sometimes I have resisted that song, other times not. It is a constant battle all of us face. I am not too enamored with concours standards as they often strike me as too anal, too focused on minutia and show, with only a passing interest in drivability. Others will strongly disagree. I also like to see some patina on a car attesting to its use and history, but one man’s patina is another’s defect. I like seeing where my father’s thumb wore through the markings on the mechanical choke plate on his E-Type. I bought a replacement, but have no plans to use it. In my mind, the original tells a richer story than the replacement.

Where do you draw the line on originality and why?

1 Like

There are many ways to enjoy the car hobby. We could spend hours on the topic. A few quick remarks.

I have a lot of respect for those who will, for example, spend a year looking for a couple of fender bolts that have some minute and obscure markings which denotes them as authentic and correct. That’s a level of dedication and patience that I simply can’t muster.

I generally think that modern upgrades are a great idea…so long as they’re not so numerous and/or obvious that the flavor of the car is lost.

As for preserving patina, well, I certainly have no objections and think it’s the right choice on many cars. But I can’t tolerate neglected repair passed off as ‘patina’. Think of leather upholstery with a few well earned wrinkles and creases…versus leather upholstery with all the stitching broken, split and torn, and padding falling out.

Cheers
DD

1 Like

Hmm… the stuffing’s pouring out of CSX2000’s driver’s seat, but you’d be mad to restore it…

I agree.

If we’re talking about cars like CSX2000 then I’ve misunderstood the conversation !

Cheers
DD

Fair enough Doug, that particular Cobra is a rather extreme example.
I am restoring a 140DHC myself, and given that it’s a pretty reasonable and low-owner example I am intending to retain as much of the original metal as humanly possible. I see articles and photos of XK restorations where the ‘restorer’ is having a brand new bodyshell fitted to an original chassis, which just doesn’t do it for me. Each to his or her own, but I like to feel that the bits of metal I am piloting around the countryside have been doing the same thing for other people for the past 60 years. The odd bent flange or misaligned wing doesn’t bother me, as long as it’s acquired that bend etc. honourably, in action. Some parts I will retain in any condition, come what may - namely bonnet and boot badges and chassis plate, to name just three.
Roger

1 Like

iven that we are not discussin a rare known history race example, or hi concours, then yours sounds about right…but .for me, maybe not the brake switch…the cars stop quite well with drum brakes…were raced with em for years…brake fade in street drives a problem? maybe comin down from the top of Pikes Peak. but if the drums are fine, and linings not oily…they work quite well. A wood steering wheel is at least a swap made often in the period. Not many will quibble about 60 or 72 spokes on a driven car. (Rare is the person that notices the 15 inch XKE wires I have…I know…maybe just a step beyond…but the Pirelli P4 on em sure look nice. Which marks on the bolts…that is for the concours folks…where I can appreciate the effort. Once the path to comfy mods is taken…why not power steering, air conditioning, Miata seats, an alternator (I am fine with hiding electronics within a generator or regulator housing. The feel of the ear box is part of the visceral “patina”. So is hard, skinny, bias ply tires…that drift…but I don’t have em. Have to admit the very sticky feel of the car on radial wider tires is not what I remember. But…all said…lets drive them !!
Nick

1 Like

I will suggest that there are essentially two options… driver or show car… if you choose to have a driver then do what you like… but don’t expect to get the big bucks… or even your investment back when you sell. On the other hand… top notch show cars demand premium prices BECAUSE someone obsessed over the minutae. Many years ago I chose the latter… However it was considerably easier to acquire correct spares 30 years ago than it is today. By correct I mean factory not reproduction. From my observation there are only a tiny number of properly restored TO ORIGINAL cars out there. It takes years, a substantial investment , and intense perseverance. In my mind the correct hose clamps DO matter… if the car is to be displayed for competition. There are a myriad details which are there to trip up the unwary.
That said even mine is not as it left the factory… years ago c 1957 a previous owner swapped the head and carburettors for the ‘C’ head and H8s …not an inexpensive upgrade at the time. but far more expensive now. Does it affect the cars potential sale price… maybe…

1 Like

Bob, Its your car…Enjoy it YOUR way.
Been doing this for awhile and as a YOUNGER Jag historian and collector, I was one of the first 30 years ago to modify, NOT BUTCHER but modify in a more modern world, mostly for safety and reliability.
Just enjoy it, brakes, electronic ignition and sooooo many other things make it a fun hobby.
I have a frame off xk120 with every nut and bolt original replated, it cost the last owner and restorer 300 grand.
I bought it from the estate for a lot less…
Go enjoy it!
Heck God forbid…DRIVE IT!
GTJOEY1314

3 Likes

Actually Roger, I have to take issue with you here. It’s all very well for you being lucky enough to have a pretty well original example but many of us are dealing with a rusty wreck. For example, look what Jim is doing with his car and my 140 was in a similar state. What would you have us do with them? Jim is making his parts. I don’t have his skill so I had to buy them. But either way, when our cars are finished we will have saved two more cars and returned them to the road.

From your description, you have what sounds like quite an easy restoration but a lot of us are not so fortunate. I can’t see why that makes our cars any less legitimate. Surely the whole point is to keep these cars on the road by whatever means in order to experience and preserve this part of motoring history.

On my car I have retained what could be saved and replaced what couldn’t. In my view, that makes me a restorer without the need for quotation marks.

Sorry for the rant but touched a nerve.

Eric

Shropshire, UK

http://www.aqua-mail.com

2 Likes

Eric, sorry to have touched the nerve - it wasn’t intentional, I assure you.
As I said, each to his or her own, and saving cars by any means is always the aim.
No, my car isn’t the worst - but I have to replace floors, trans tunnel, sills, doorskins, wood frames, boot floor - and align the lot properly. I have no option - I can’t afford the prices the specialists are asking for these parts, or their labour, so will be making and fitting most of them myself too. And, for me, that’s actually the bit I enjoy (except for the woodwork).
I intend no criticism at all of those who have their cars professionally restored.

and Godfrey…at least you do know where your car’s original cyl head is.

Nick, It interests me that you and I seem to have opted for different sides of the same coin. You kept the drum brakes, but opted for the smaller, 72 spoke E-type wheels with wider tires. I went for the front disc brake conversion, but kept the original size wheels and tires. Both address handling issues, both of us opted to vary from original, but felt it important to maintain some of the originality in different ways. That is why this topic interests me. These issues arise constantly and each of us will decide which aspects are important to us to maintain as original, and which can be modified. Personally, I like to maintain the original look and engineering whenever possible. But if there was a significant problem with the engineering, it only makes sense to address it, as you would with any other car you own.

2 Likes

Bob, I am one who will not: as I got Tweety back to roadability, I used the same metrics and methods.

I enjoy the challenge of unbodging the bodge repairs and mods of DPOs, and getting it back to original, or as best we can determine what original was.
These were great cars for their time.
Questions about original spec were how this forum was started in about 1996 with just a half dozen of us.
The knowledge of XKs has expanded tremendously since then.
I restore all original parts if I can.
I am perfectly happy to drive it in original spec, no need for modern gearbox or high torque starter or alternator or Pertronics or shocks or Grade 8 bolts.
But I am in favor of seat belts and radial tires of period appearance.

radial tyres and seat belts… slippery slope… hmmm

And, all that is perfectly OK, too!

There are few wrong answers in this game…as it should be.

From perfectly restored-to-original, to heavily updated, all these cars remain…

Jaguars

That’s the single correct answer.

1 Like

I tend to agree with Rob except for the Grade 8 bolts, at least on the suspension. My understanding is that the original bolts used in the suspension were some version of an upgraded bolt. I really don’t want anything coming apart at speed. To me, an interesting aspect of old cars is to see how the various engineering problems inherent in all car design were addressed. If everything is upgraded, something is lost. The upgrades I would say are necessary are items like the dreaded door hinges.

I’d agree on the door hinges. They are a surprisingly poor design, unlubricated steel against steel, probably beaten only by the incredibly optimistic cable bootlid latch arrangement. I’d also agree that these are great cars, especially for their time - but don’t forget that (here in Britain, at least) everyone asked how Lyons could make them for the price (and, more so, the E-type). There are a few clues to be found…
For me, I’d agree with Rob apart from electronic ignition and an alternator. I spent my youth fighting with Lucas dynamos, and modern replacement points and condensors are generally nowhere near as good quality as the originals. So, as with my other classics, a Dynator will be fitted, along with a magnetic trigger in the distributor. Moss 'box and alternator all the way, though!

agree…and these are easily reversible changes…I did the XKE wires quite some time back…in late 80s…there were just not good tire choices…NOW…I’d change back to 16s (if I win the lottery).likely .would be 60 or 72 spoke chrome wires…since Pirelli Cinturato is again available…at about $350 each USD. Maybe still will… Too bad a Dunlop tire is not available in 16 (or 15 for that matter…) I now have Pirelli P4…for the xk120 with 205 70-15 front, 215-70-15 rear for 9/10 of an inch increased diameter (26.9). and tread width of 6.4 in, .still quite a bit less than the 28.25 of the original Dunlop Road Speed 600-16 that had a tread width of 4.25. The one inch difference in diameter in the rear does make a slight rev/mph increase in revs difference that I am still trying to assess. As said…with 6.4 of tread on the round per sticky radial tire, the …old style drift is not possible…I am frightened even to test the limit of corner speed. Nick

In a message dated 9/22/2018 9:48:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, noreply@jag-lovers.com writes:

curranrj Bob Curran
September 23
Nick, It interests me that you and I seem to have opted for different sides of the same coin. You kept the drum brakes, but opted for the smaller, 72 spoke E-type wheels with wider tires. I went for the front disc brake conversion, but kept the original size wheels and tires. Both address handling issues, both of us opted to vary from original, but felt it important to maintain some of the originality in different ways. That is why this topic interests me. These issues arise constantly and each of us will decide which aspects are important to us to maintain as original, and which can be modified. Personally, I like to maintain the original look and engineering whenever possible. But if there was a significant problem with the engineering, it only makes sense to address it, as you would with any other car you own.

I can say…I am opposed to “bodge”. While I like, and appreciate originality…and do feel these cars are works of art, and engineering of the day whereby both appearance and characteristics of driving are part of the design to be preserved by we the current care-takers, that said, I know my sticky 15 inch radials with 6.4 of tread…are a bi chane. I drove many miles back in the day on original tires…sliding broadside thru corners on narrow canyon roads, luckily surviving. But I do not subscribe to…you own it so do what you want. Too few of these cars for that. Modify a 56 Chevy, a Mustang or Camaro.
Nick