How to value a non-matching numbers XK120 OTS?

Hello all,

While I usually post messages over on the E-Type section of the forum, lately I’ve been contemplating buying a XK120 OTS to join my 69 E-Type OTS in my garage. :slight_smile:

Trying to educate myself about XK120’s has been somewhat of a steep learning curve but thanks to knowledgeable forum members (especially Rob Reilly!) I’m starting to feel more comfortable in judging the car I want or (in the case of a recent offering from Beverly Hills Car Club) one’s that I don’t want.

However, the issue of how to correctly value a car vis-a-vis the seller’s current asking price is not really an area I currently feel all that comfortable with. For instance, especially troublesome to me is the question of the true value of “matching numbers”.

In many classic car classes (take the Corvette for instance) those words seem to be bandied about as if only those with it are worthy purchases and the ones without are relegated to the bottom of the heap. I wonder how true that is in the classic Jaguar world? And more specifically how “matching numbers” or perhaps more correctly “non-matching numbers” should impact on the “correct” price I should expect to pay.

While I certainly have my own answers I have no idea if I am right or wrong.

Which is why I’d really like to hear comments from members of the XK forum - who I am sure have miles more experience then me with XK120’s.

So, consider the following:

Two identical XK120 OTS’s sit side by side on the side of the road. Both have exactly the same paint color and quality, both have the exact same leather interior in the same condition, both run the same and mechanically are in the same condition. But one has all matching numbers (engine block and head, body and transmission ) and the other does not.

Which one is worth more, and how much more, and why?

Thanks!!

Chet

Buy the Corvette. Pete

The matching numbers one: why? Because buyers think it’s important.

It’s not a question simply answered, as there are many different aspects that matter or don’t matter.Like for like, if that is indeed possible, then a matching numbers XK will always sell for more, or easier, or both, than a none matching numbers XK. Buyers that don’t care, invariably expect to buy a non matching numbers car for less than it would cost them for a like-for-like matching numbers XK, and buyers that do care, understand they will need to pay more for a matching numbers car.
But impossible to quantify the difference. For want of a guess, try 20%, but could be 10%, could be 30% or anything else, as you will never get a like- for-like comparison.
A matching numbers car, suggests original in major components only, but who is to say how authentic/original rest of car is short of a comprehensive originality judging by a recognised authority.
Similarly a non matching numbers car, can range from having the exact correct XK engine fitted, but with just the stamped in Engine Number non- original/non-matching, or can have a totally wrong but still Jaguar engine fitted, and indeed have an American V8 fitted. All three options, and many variations in between, are non matching, but have a vastly different effect on value of XK.
Best to have a good look and research what you want and values asked, seek help, and make your own decisions. Just remember the vendors will claim their non-matching XKs are worth the same, and the vendors of mating number cars will emphasise that, and gloss over other significant problems as being ‘easily fixed’

Thanks Roger for your reply!

Chet

In all the years I’ve owned my XK120 no one has ever asked me whether it is matching numbers. But I assume the question will be asked when the time comes to sell the car. So my take is that matching numbers is just one aspect of assigning some logical value to an XK Jaguar. However, I believe that overall condition of the car as compared to other XKs is more important to most potential buyers.

Take a look at XKdata.com and then look-up 670025. This alloy roadster appears to have no matching numbers. The frame came from a later XK120 FHC. The engine came from an XK140. It has a five speed gearbox and disc brakes. Most likely it has a newly constructed alloy body lacking the original rear spats. The original windscreen and bumpers are missing, and the seats and wheels are not correct for an alloy car. The car seems to have its original chassis plate, a Heritage Certificate, and a few original parts. Yet the car sold for $346,500 less than three years ago.

What explains this? It can’t be the matching numbers problem. Assuming the provenance of the car (and its few original parts) can be established for certain, then 670025 is simply an extreme example of what most XK Jaguars are today. Most of our cars lack numerous parts and components originally installed by the factory. Many of the original XK parts were date-stamped or stamped in someway that establishes a date of manufacture. So if we examine an XK closely, we will find replacement Lucas electrical components, replacement fasteners, hose clamps, ignition keys, and other lesser components not identified by the Heritage Certificate or the chassis plate.

I suspect what many (but not all) buyers seek is a beautiful and well-running package they can be proud to own. 670025 fits this description, and its non-matching numbers and lack of original components does not seem to have overly harmed its valuation.

All it takes—any transaction— is a willing seller and a willing buyer.

Back in the 80s, 427 Cobras were selling somewhere north of 500 large: personally, I wouldnt give ya a plugged nickel for one, and it was somewhat schadenfreude-y to see a few lose their clackers on same!

As I explained privately, but now for the benefit of the forum, matching numbers in the Jaguar world is not the same as matching numbers in the Corvette world. We have not reached the point of specifying casting date codes and depth of machine tool marks on otherwise identical parts.

We can help you with identifying a correct engine block and head and gearbox.
The Heritage Certificate people will only confirm numbers submitted to them, not supply missing numbers, the idea being to prevent fakes.

Engine numbers ran from W1001 to W9999 and then F1001 to F4250 according to Clausager. The suffix number -7 or -8 or -9 indicates the type of pistons originally installed for the different compression ratios. A suffix letter S indicates 3/8" lift camshafts.

This serial number is hand stamped on the block where the oil filter is attached.


Engines W1001 to W2213 will have block casting number C2331 and this number is in large cast characters on the side above the oil filter.
W2214 to 2611 will have C2331-1. (source Urs Schmid vol 1)
W2612 to 9999 and all F numbers will have block casting number C4820 on the side above the oil filter.
A discrepancy; the factory parts catalogue says C2331/1 for W1001-2011 and C4820 for W2012 onwards.

Heads have the serial number stamped on the vertical face in front of the front spark plug.


The head casting number is found on the underside.
W1001 to W4690 had casting C2242 or 2242/1, both of which can be recognized by the lack of the 3 acorn nuts around the front end of the cam covers, though some had them added later to stop leaks.
PICT0010
W4691 to W9999 and all F engines had casting C6733 which has the 3 acorn nuts around the front end of the cam covers.
PICT0006
Head casting C7707 is sometimes seen but should generally be considered a later replacement.

Gearbox serial numbers are stamped on the upper left rear corner of the main cast iron case.


and on the top cover around a core plug.

this is obviously an extreme example of non matching numbers! At least it is much better than a number of alloy cars and steel body cars that are total fabrications ie they been built from dreamed up chassis numbers!
The car does have the original ID plate and a continuous history and also a well known race history early 1970’s onwards. The last time it was auctioned they tried to give it a period 1950’s race history but certainly there was no actual proof of any of this provided.
A person who buys this car is buying a well built car “hard to say restored” and a well built period race car.
The person who brought it may also have not truly understood what they were buying when it comes to it authenticity.
Additionally what would it actually cost to buy every individual part and start from scratch and build a car like this?

Like a lot of things there are a few variations on the theme
The real early C2331 blocks maybe on a max of 500 have the date of manufacture cast into them and just add to the intrigue some of the very earliest of these the casting of Litre was only ltr.
later C2331 blocks didn’t have the date of casting on them.
Has anyone seen a block with the part number C2331-1 cast onto it? only 397 engine to check on
And there are 2 versions of the way C4820 was cast into the block ie the character height was vastly different between the 2 versions.

Terry
Just checking my last few weeks on this forum weren’t a dream. You are happy to take information from others but not to give?
I won’t say any more on this subject online, except caveat emptor.
Simon

At Jaguar a returned XK 120 was ALWAYS rebuilt with a new block. This is because the old block was judged as obsolete due to inferior chain tensioner and arguably oil pump design. Engine numbers at Jaguar,
From at least 1971 onwards were NEVER stamped above the oil filter head. They were always stamped on the flange edges the rear of the block on the nearside( in the uk)
So, some people may have genuine factory engines in thier XK120 with the engine no on the bell housing flange of the block.
We also used to change engine no’s daily to suit production conditions. What does that do for the “Matching numbers”syndrome!!!

simon,
you must have the wrong subject, I thought my comments on the engine numbers was actually adding to the collective knowledge of the group as there is new info in what I wrote!
Maybe you are referring to 670025 which is certainly a case of caveat emptor or in english “Buyer Beware”
regards terry

Any block with the later type chain tensioner and oil pump would not have the casting number C2331 nor C4820, it would have some later block casting number, and should thus be easily recognized as not being the original XK120 engine block.

Um…shows it to be essentially a non-issue, except for those who love to argue about a pin heads, and the number of angels upon it?

Jus’ guessin.’
:yum::yum:

Yes! I am told some even insist on the correct letters on the 3 set screws that retain the Otter switch!!! A bit sad or what???

Interesting thread. My XK120 was a low mileage (20K) original basket case when I bought it in '91, after having been in storage for 20+ years. Original engine. I’ll be tearing it apart next year to replace seals etc. Is it possible to upgrade the chain tensioner and oil pump? Any other upgrades possible/recommended?

Don’t care much about matching numbers but do like period correctness.

There is a conversion available for the chain tensioner- from Guy Broad ( who I know,but have no commercial connection with his company) the early type oil pump is reconditionable using your original unit ( if it’s not totalled!) you could use a later block but I would advise the conversion if the rest of the block is reusable.

Thanks, Nigel. Great information.

Hi Nick
The other thing I should have said is that maybe you get unleaded compatible valve seats fitted?